DRDO and PSU's

Sir ,
I want to ask a doubt after hesitating s lot because may be it could be answered 100th on this thread but still,
Ballistic missiles can reach upto mark 24 (like agni). So how this thing is so different if it is not cruise missile and why there is so much shout about it because there are several quasi ballistic missiles too. Is it just about the fact that it is a ballistic missile that can reach hypersonic speeds and maneuver a bit in end game like a quasi ballistic missile.
Apologies if you have answered this question already.

Thank you
A rudimentary but interesting way to look at this would be to ask at what angle the "device" is maintaining its hypersonic speed. And here device means any object (Re-entry vehicle/MaRV/BGV/Missile) that can change its course.

1. Hypersonic at around 90° - MaRV
Travels at almost Mach 20 but as it's literally just falling from above, quite easier to intercept it.
Agni-P

2. Hypersonic in 60-90° - Quasi-Ballistic Missiles
Speed gets slower but maneuverability increases, bit more tricky to intercept.
Shaurya

3. Hypersonic in 45-60° - "there's no name for this category"
Speed again gets slower but maneuverability increases, can perform evasive maneuvers to escape interception
LR-AShM

4. Hypersonic at around 45° - Glide Vehicles
Perhaps the sweet spot between hypersonic speed and maneuverability. Pretty much like the above but with the advantage of being just fraction of its weight as there's no propellant
AGM-18

5. Hypersonic at almost 0° - Hypersonic Cruise Missile
Extreme maneuverability but at the cost of speed, barely qualifies as hypersonic. Quite tough to intercept
X-51 Waverider

NOTE : This classification isn't official and is totally made up by me to make you better understand the topic.
Kahin aur istemaal mat kar dijiyega Dakt Sahab, dikkat ho jaayegi
 
Sir ,
I want to ask a doubt after hesitating s lot because may be it could be answered 100th on this thread but still,
Ballistic missiles can reach upto mark 24 (like agni). So how this thing is so different if it is not cruise missile and why there is so much shout about it because there are several quasi ballistic missiles too. Is it just about the fact that it is a ballistic missile that can reach hypersonic speeds and maneuver a bit in end game like a quasi ballistic missile.
Apologies if you have answered this question already.

Thank you

To answer your question from a technical standpoint, the main difference between ballistic and cruise missiles, is that ballistic missiles exit and re-enter the atmosphere, at least the lower 70% of it, thus gaining a LOT of speed in intra-atmospheric stage & then reaching mach 24 or such absurd speeds in terminal velocity phase under gravity.
Remember, for ballistic missiles to go terminal velocity, its trajectory, not range that matters, since in ALL ballistic motion, velocity *MUST* equal 0 at apogee, before the object moves to its terminal trajectory.

In this phase,what you basically have, is an ultra-high speed bullet, which you can steer to a degree with glide properties. You could even strap on a small engine to it to give it more controllable thrust or thrust nozzles and fancy stuff, but basically you are operating on glide properties, with the governing speed coming from terminal velocity of simple projectile motion physics.

Now in cruise missiles, its basically a rocket going sideways through the atmosphere, where its gaining ALL of its speed via continuous thrust output of its rocket motor ( a ballistic missile warhead gets no more thrust output after apogee, then its just gravity that takes over). This is basically your loony tunes cartoon rocket car, that can do crazy things in terms of speed and manueverability as long as the crazy engine is on and has fuel.
Now, since cruise missiles are not trans-atmospheric, they offer certain discrete advantage : low detectability ( basically no detectability across the horizon and you need to keep raising the horizon to see it coming, meaning keep flying further and further up with a missile detection system, instead of having a radar on ground detecting trans-atmospheric entry from 5000kms away) being one.

Another one is, ability to do sophisticated terminal phase manuevers, because it still has thrust output into its terminal phase, meaning controlling thrust output velocity yeilds sophisticated evasion and re-targetting patterns.

The main trade-off is range, because a cruise missile travelling from point A to point B is travelling 100% of its trajectory through the dense lower atmospheric air, thus creating a huge amount of drag. As opposed to a ballistic missile, that does trans-atmospheric trajectory, it means it spends only a tiny % of its trajectory through thick lower atmosphere, thus expericing significantly less drag over time.

Now you can hybridize either model to a degree, but overall, the governing physics remains the same basically due to the whole 'where is the projectile getting most of its kinetic energy/momentum from in its terminal phase' angle.
 
Pralay( TVC, no booster) and Shaurya(booster, no tvc) images (14).webpIMG_5444.webp from what I know both pralay and shaurya are basically same missile only difference being TVC and booster.
And from my internet digging, I came to know that both missiles slow downs from mach7+ to Mach 4 in terminal ( no hypersonic plasma problem for seeker)
So if we were to take pralay missile, modify it with a seeker to track ships and given it has TVC already so it should be manurable enough to hit a large slow moving targets like ships.
Then we get zircon.
IMG_5447.webp
@Bhartiya Sainik @Ayan Barat

Now I could also be completely wrong, in that case please go easy on me 🥺.
 
Pralay( TVC, no booster) and Shaurya(booster, no tvc) View attachment 17705View attachment 17704 from what I know both pralay and shaurya are basically same missile only difference being TVC and booster.
And from my internet digging, I came to know that both missiles slow downs from mach7+ to Mach 4 in terminal ( no hypersonic plasma problem for seeker)
So if we were to take pralay missile, modify it with a seeker to track ships and given it has TVC already so it should be manurable enough to hit a large slow moving targets like ships.
Then we get zircon.
View attachment 17706
@Bhartiya Sainik @Ayan Barat

Now I could also be completely wrong, in that case please go easy on me 🥺.
So Zircon is nothing but Jhumla? Not a Scramjet? This is why I fail to believe Russian advances in Material Science. I can't believe Russians could crack Scramjet before Americans.
 
So Zircon is nothing but Jhumla? Not a Scramjet? This is why I fail to believe Russian advances in Material Science. I can't believe Russians could crack Scramjet before Americans.
images.webpimages (15).webp
These are what scramjets looks like, 1st one is amriki prototype second one is what drdo is developing.
Now I Don't know how similar zircon is to our shaurya/pralay but zircon doesn't " seem scram jet, most likely rocket motor powered like our shaurya/pralay and LRASHM.
 
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please go easy on me 🥺
I can't Buddy
What'll happen to my reputation of being derisive and snarky!?
what I know both pralay and shaurya are basically same missile only difference being TVC and booster.
Yup
It's just different phases of single missile improvement program. Kind of like how you've in metamorphosis - larva, pupae, fly
• Sagarika - Purely submarine launched
• Shaurya - Sagarika improvised for ground launch. Like still having hydrodynamic cone despite ground launched
• Pralay - Purely ground launched. All submarine launched features of Sagarika/Shaurya removed
• SMART - Pralay/Shaurya hybrid but with an elongated warhead section to accomodate Shyena torpedo
both missiles slow downs from mach7+ to Mach 4 in terminal
Yeah, kind of.
It's more to do with design (the expended booster is not discarded), shallow angle of impact and bleeding energy than intentionally slowing for better radar functioning.
So if we were to take pralay missile, modify it with a seeker to track ships and given it has TVC already so it should be manurable enough to hit a large slow moving targets like ships.
We already have done something very similar in the form of Rudram-II
• Radar and IIR seeker
• 300km range
• Light-weight enough to be carried on fighters
• 200kg AP warhead
• Peak speed of Mach 5.5 (hypersonic) with engagement of more than Mach 1
Then we get zircon.
We can't get Zircon...not because it's something extremely tough to make but because we don't know what exactly are we going to make.

As of now there's absolutely no concrete evidence to prove whether it's an air-breathing hypersonic missile, a quasi-ballistic missile or a glide vehicle.
Though the majority of experts speculated it to be a hypersonic cruise missile and these things are bit hard to make. Though we have our HSTDV program which upon completion would result in pretty much this same Zircon if indeed it's what people are guessing it to be.
 
I can't Buddy
What'll happen to my reputation of being derisive and snarky!?

Yup
It's just different phases of single missile improvement program. Kind of like how you've in metamorphosis - larva, pupae, fly
• Sagarika - Purely submarine launched
• Shaurya - Sagarika improvised for ground launch. Like still having hydrodynamic cone despite ground launched
• Pralay - Purely ground launched. All submarine launched features of Sagarika/Shaurya removed
• SMART - Pralay/Shaurya hybrid but with an elongated warhead section to accomodate Shyena torpedo

Yeah, kind of.
It's more to do with design (the expended booster is not discarded), shallow angle of impact and bleeding energy than intentionally slowing for better radar functioning.

We already have done something very similar in the form of Rudram-II
• Radar and IIR seeker
• 300km range
• Light-weight enough to be carried on fighters
• 200kg AP warhead
• Peak speed of Mach 5.5 (hypersonic) with engagement of more than Mach 1

We can't get Zircon...not because it's something extremely tough to make but because we don't know what exactly are we going to make.

As of now there's absolutely no concrete evidence to prove whether it's an air-breathing hypersonic missile, a quasi-ballistic missile or a glide vehicle.
Though the majority of experts speculated it to be a hypersonic cruise missile and these things are bit hard to make. Though we have our HSTDV program which upon completion would result in pretty much this same Zircon if indeed it's what people are guessing it to be.
Your right no proof on anything yet.
But still this doesn't look like scram jet powered missile, if it's airbreathing then it will look more by brahmos which is a ramjet powered one.
Gd4ysjMWgAE0faa.webpGd4yrsaWgAIBbRr.webpGeBZDDaXUAAxtUW.webpGeBZDDbW4AAPt2J.webp
 
But still this doesn't look like airbreathing much less scram jet powered missile.
No matter how many pics from different angles you post or how HD the quality is...even Wernher Magnus Maximilian Freiherr von Braun himself can't tell whether there's just a simple nose cone or a annular air intake or some X-51 like set-up inside by just looking at the drag reducing cap.
 
Pralay( TVC, no booster) and Shaurya(booster, no tvc) View attachment 17705View attachment 17704 from what I know both pralay and shaurya are basically same missile only difference being TVC and booster.
And from my internet digging, I came to know that both missiles slow downs from mach7+ to Mach 4 in terminal ( no hypersonic plasma problem for seeker)
So if we were to take pralay missile, modify it with a seeker to track ships and given it has TVC already so it should be manurable enough to hit a large slow moving targets like ships.
Then we get zircon.
View attachment 17706
@Bhartiya Sainik @Ayan Barat

Now I could also be completely wrong, in that case please go easy on me 🥺.
Honestly, i have not done much homework on missiles technology, especially the hypersonic ones & thier terminal guidance.
AFAIK the BMs use INS (Inertial Nav. Sys.) by Ring Laser Gyroscope, some may use GPS also, some get mid-course updates also by satellite.

Zircon is SCRamjet powered Mach 8-9 S-SM(Surface to Surface Missile), can hit sea/land targets.
Kinzhal is rocket powered Mach 9-10 AGM(Air to Ground Missile), can hit land targets.
Pralay is rocket powered Mach-6 SRBM using INS.
Shaurya is rocket powered Mach 7-8 using INS.

The BVR-AAMs & CCMs can fly Mach 4-5 with their RF & EO seekers.
There are ARMs & ground attack versions like our Rudram-2 with speed Mach 5-6 which, apart from passive radar homing, can use INS+Satellite for midcourse & IR for terminal phases.

So my low IQ brain would say that Pralay/Shaurya can be modified or a new missile, to use midcourse updates + passive RF &/or IR terminal homing to hit Naval targets.
 
Honestly, i have not done much homework on missiles technology, especially the hypersonic ones & thier terminal guidance.
AFAIK the BMs use INS (Inertial Nav. Sys.) by Ring Laser Gyroscope, some may use GPS also, some get mid-course updates also by satellite.

Zircon is SCRamjet powered Mach 8-9 S-SM(Surface to Surface Missile), can hit sea/land targets.
Kinzhal is rocket powered Mach 9-10 AGM(Air to Ground Missile), can hit land targets.
Pralay is rocket powered Mach-6 SRBM using INS.
Shaurya is rocket powered Mach 7-8 using INS.

The BVR-AAMs & CCMs can fly Mach 4-5 with their RF & EO seekers.
There are ARMs & ground attack versions like our Rudram-2 with speed Mach 5-6 which, apart from passive radar homing, can use INS+Satellite for midcourse & IR for terminal phases.

So my low IQ brain would say that Pralay/Shaurya can be modified or a new missile, to use midcourse updates + passive RF &/or IR terminal homing to hit Naval targets.
No no.
My argument was that zircon can very well be a rocket powered hypersonic missile like our shaurya/pralay instead of a srcamjet powered hypersonic missile.
Though it could also have brahmos like intake on top.
 
After more internet digging, including using Google translate to infiltrate the russian side of internet, searching many russian forums,telegram channels and discord channels( those these mf's are pretty racist)
I came across multiple discussion that were also saying that zircon is a rocket motor powered hypersonic missile, but it was still just "word of mouth".
Then I came across this "alleged" pic of zircon without cap.
image0-2.webpScreenshot_20241205_180210_Gallery.webpimage0-1.webp
If this "alleged" pic turned out to be true then it confirms my theory that zircon is infact rocket powered.
 
No no.
My argument was that zircon can very well be a rocket powered hypersonic missile like our shaurya/pralay instead of a srcamjet powered hypersonic missile.
Though it could also have brahmos like intake on top.
If you change the engine, it becomes a new missile or version.
Oniks/Yakhont is Ramjet powered, Zircon is SCRamjet powered, Kinzhal is rocket powered.
Brahmos-1 is Ramjet powered, Brahmos-2 will be SCRamjet powered.
IDK merits/demerits of rocket powered Vs SCRamjet.
 
After more internet digging, including using Google translate to infiltrate the russian side of internet, searching many russian forums,telegram channels and discord channels( those these mf's are pretty racist)
I came across multiple discussion that were also saying that zircon is a rocket motor powered hypersonic missile, but it was still just "word of mouth".
Then I came across this "alleged" pic of zircon without cap.
View attachment 17719View attachment 17720View attachment 17721
If this "alleged" pic turned out to be true then it confirms my theory that zircon is infact rocket powered.
This is the era of experimentation on weapons.
Koi missile ko topi(top cap) pehnata hai, koi juta(launching booster) pehnata hai, koi lungi(1st stage booster) pehanata hai :facepalm4: :facepalm2::LOL:
 
So what will replace might 29k's?
Naval AMCA?

It's cheaper to get more Rafales, than design a jet from scratch. Problem is there order size is gonna be no more than 50. That's too low for such investment, unless ORCA happens as well (unlikely).

Even if we work to get F404 powered Rafales (20% more powerful as each engine) then also it'll still be cheaper.

Vikramaditya will retire by mid 30s. 2 AC will join with capacity minimum of 30 each. If shore based facilities included, the number can touch 100.
Things would've been better if IAF jurnails weren't so dense and had joined for ORCA project.
Nonetheless as Indranil said turning a DBF into AF variant is not difficult process so hopefully when TEDBF flies, sense prevails in AF.

How many shore based fighter does Navy have (agreed it'd be smart to have carrier capable jets at shore/island bases ✨)?.. The Mig-29 are new-ish, could've moved them to Andaman & solved their payload issue with a a larger batch of replacement Rafales. Would've also fixed the MRFA conundrum as well.

I doubt such thing will happen. Neither is there a need for ORCA with AMCA present & to go on to a Mark2. ORCA shares the grave with TEDBF
 
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It's cheaper to get more Rafales, than design a jet from scratch. Problem is there order size is gonna be no more than 50. That's too low for such investment, unless ORCA happens as well (unlikely).

Even if we work to get F404 powered Rafales (20% more powerful as each engine) them also it'll still be cheaper.
The no. Of tedbf decrease from 145 to "87" now according to the print.
 

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