DRDO and PSU's

username unkown said:
Ukraine war has proved rather than aircraft /any other military equipment in big number and capability to mass produce in house is better than tip of the spear high prized equipment
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Ukraine has uncle sam to keep supplying sams in order to defend itself. Had that not being the case the Russian airforce would have bombed the shit out of Ukraine.
 
Blademaster said:
Well not necessarily. If it wasn't for the western electronic warfare, Russia would have done a lot better. Tech do play a major role especially in the electronic warfare spectrum.
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Yes tech does play big role but when equipment is destroyed can you expect Russian or even Western to provide more equipment on fair prize

No can't even during 2020 standoff Russian , israeli and Western charged us 2x-3x original of original cost just because they knew we don't have any other option
 
Blademaster said:
Well not necessarily. If it wasn't for the western electronic warfare, Russia would have done a lot better. Tech do play a major role especially in the electronic warfare spectrum.
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He's possibly talking from the supply PoV.

Russia can manufacture more stuff to compensate for it's losses.
Ukraine is dependent on the good graces of it's patrons putting some into it's katora.

Think about and India vs Pak/Chini conflict, Unlike Ukraine the "patrons" in question will milk us for every last $ and make us comply to onerous T&C to access their Wunderwaffe.

Chini meanwhile can manufacture stuff for itself and for Paki.

It is one thing to utter a jhumla like "ToDaY iS NoT ThE ErA oF WaR" it is another to believe it and not take defence procurement and production seriously just because of Chandigarh lobby gernails and lazy DPSU "scientists" and management.
 
Satish Sharma Ji said:
But we aren't. Iaf sq strength is at all time low since 1965.
Hope any conflict doesn't rose on eastern borders
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If tejas mk 2 ff happened in 2023 it would have helped alot tejas mk 2 is going to solve biggest problem that is sq strength with capability
Tejas mk 2 being guided by super sukhoi would be deadly combo
 
Had anyone noticed we had too many baboos in production agencies like OFB, PSUs but in R&D organisations like DRDO we only had only 5000 Scientists and 25,000 all other types totalling 30,000 only. This is for DRDO that handles all the shit from basic rifles to ICBMs. Keeping this aside our only design Agency AKA ADA only has 1000 employees and I don't even know how many Scientists and Engineers from that as that is total figure and now comparing to China which has holy fuck 500,000 in AVIC. No wonder they can accomplish it by brute force. Leave it alone, just the Chengdu which produces J-20 has 20,000 employees alone compare to palsy 1000 of ADA. Another thing is this Aero Engines of China has 96,000 where as us like how many in GTRE? Maybe 960 itself is high estimate?

Same with ISRO, it has some palsy 20,000 employees whereas same Chinese own equivalent had 200,000 employees. Note that the Chinese Aviation Industry isn't a dumping machine like all other industries of it leading with excess production and excess employees. It only caters to small domestic demand and which means that most of those working on Indigenous Programs only. No wonder Chinese could brute force everything by the sheer size of their employees. I always felt about quality of DRDO but never questioned is there enough quantity hiring on scale?

Instead of that whatever MNREGA Scam, Government should atleast had spent on this. We are not hiring enough in required sectors and dumping freebies on dehatis.
 
SlayingHell said:
Had anyone noticed we had too many baboos in production agencies like OFB, PSUs but in R&D organisations like DRDO we only had only 5000 Scientists and 25,000 all other types totalling 30,000 only. This is for DRDO that handles all the shit from basic rifles to ICBMs. Keeping this aside our only design Agency AKA ADA only has 1000 employees and I don't even know how many Scientists and Engineers from that as that is total figure and now comparing to China which has holy fuck 500,000 in AVIC. No wonder they can accomplish it by brute force. Leave it alone, just the Chengdu which produces J-20 has 20,000 employees alone compare to palsy 1000 of ADA. Another thing is this Aero Engines of China has 96,000 where as us like how many in GTRE? Maybe 960 itself is high estimate?

Same with ISRO, it has some palsy 20,000 employees whereas same Chinese own equivalent had 200,000 employees. Note that the Chinese Aviation Industry isn't a dumping machine like all other industries of it leading with excess production and excess employees. It only caters to small domestic demand and which means that most of those working on Indigenous Programs only. No wonder Chinese could brute force everything by the sheer size of their employees. I always felt about quality of DRDO but never questioned is there enough quantity hiring on scale?

Instead of that whatever MNREGA Scam, Government should atleast had spent on this. We are not hiring enough in required sectors and dumping freebies on dehatis.
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The most extreme example this is the diplomatic corps of India. It's a paltry 700ish. Singapore has more.
 
SlayingHell said:
Had anyone noticed we had too many baboos in production agencies like OFB, PSUs but in R&D organisations like DRDO we only had only 5000 Scientists and 25,000 all other types totalling 30,000 only. This is for DRDO that handles all the shit from basic rifles to ICBMs. Keeping this aside our only design Agency AKA ADA only has 1000 employees and I don't even know how many Scientists and Engineers from that as that is total figure and now comparing to China which has holy fuck 500,000 in AVIC. No wonder they can accomplish it by brute force. Leave it alone, just the Chengdu which produces J-20 has 20,000 employees alone compare to palsy 1000 of ADA. Another thing is this Aero Engines of China has 96,000 where as us like how many in GTRE? Maybe 960 itself is high estimate?

Same with ISRO, it has some palsy 20,000 employees whereas same Chinese own equivalent had 200,000 employees. Note that the Chinese Aviation Industry isn't a dumping machine like all other industries of it leading with excess production and excess employees. It only caters to small domestic demand and which means that most of those working on Indigenous Programs only. No wonder Chinese could brute force everything by the sheer size of their employees. I always felt about quality of DRDO but never questioned is there enough quantity hiring on scale?

Instead of that whatever MNREGA Scam, Government should atleast had spent on this. We are not hiring enough in required sectors and dumping freebies on dehatis.
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This is an absolutely valid comparison but then someone might come up with the argument that number of scientists doesn't matter, what they do is more important

So let's talk about R&D; the end result of everything from number of employees to budget to the academia

Combining plethora of topics from PPE suit to auto-loader for MBT, multiple labs and also scientist working on deputation with other institutions these are the stats for number of DRDO patents published in last 5 years. 2023 - 20, 2022 - 79, 2021 - 54, 2020 - 18 and 2019 - 38

For the same period these numbers are from SIG Sauer; a US based firm that's concerned only in firearms, ammunition and optics.
32, 20, 28, 23 and 40.

That's just a single firm engaged in a fraction of fields DRDO is. We should never compare it with DARPA, theoretically the peer but if one wishes then it'd be like
1090, 1074, 103leave it

We seriously need to focus on drastically improving our R&D otherwise...
🙂
 
Ayan Barat said:
This is an absolutely valid comparison but then someone might come up with the argument that number of scientists doesn't matter, what they do is more important

So let's talk about R&D; the end result of everything from number of employees to budget to the academia

Combining plethora of topics from PPE suit to auto-loader for MBT, multiple labs and also scientist working on deputation with other institutions these are the stats for number of DRDO patents published in last 5 years. 2023 - 20, 2022 - 79, 2021 - 54, 2020 - 18 and 2019 - 38

For the same period these numbers are from SIG Sauer; a US based firm that's concerned only in firearms, ammunition and optics.
32, 20, 28, 23 and 40.

That's just a single firm engaged in a fraction of fields DRDO is. We should never compare it with DARPA, theoretically the peer but if one wishes then it'd be like
1090, 1074, 103leave it

We seriously need to focus on drastically improving our R&D otherwise...
🙂
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Iam not talking about Quality and didn't talked about Lockheed or NG. But comparing to Chinese whose journey was similar to us with no legacies inherited from WW2. What Iam saying is that when there is enough quantity it will be a quality itself. Moreover a significant aspect is I noted there are multiple bureaus for a single area where they had to compete whereas here there is no competition. Even in Gormint run Depts, if there is competition then there would be atleast a fraction of improvements. When you have heaps of employees, there would be inevitable emergence of atleast 2 or 3 Diamonds from them, the probability increases.
 
SlayingHell said:
Iam not talking about Quality and didn't talked about Lockheed or NG. But comparing to Chinese whose journey was similar to us with no legacies inherited from WW2. What Iam saying is that when there is enough quantity it will be a quality itself. Moreover a significant aspect is I noted there are multiple bureaus for a single area where they had to compete whereas here there is no competition. Even in Gormint run Depts, if there is competition then there would be atleast a fraction of improvements. When you have heaps of employees, there would be inevitable emergence of atleast 2 or 3 Diamonds from them, the probability increases.
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Arrrre...I'm not countering you.
Rather I'm adding further points on what might be the result of having less employees
 
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