Operation Sindoor and Aftermath (48 Viewers)

[snakeeyes07]

Thanks for sharing. How reliable are these models and simulations used?

F-35 vs J-20 vs Su-57 Summary

Introduction Previously, we have done HFSS simulation to evaluate the mean and median radar cross section as well as the radar scattering pattern of the four common stealth fighters namely F-35A, S…

basicsaboutaerodynamicsandavionics.wordpress.com

Found this as well in the same site. This shows that the f35 is clearly the stealthiest, followed by the j20 at about 0.21m2 and finally the Su 57 at 0.48m2.

So yes, the J20 is stealthier but not by a massive amount. The stealth 'busting' radar also might give the Felon an advantage in a2a combat.

In conclusion, the Su 57 is still better than anything we have by a distance, even with all the presumed flaws. Also note that it can be integrated with the R37m bvr missile, which is a game changer.

For reference, detection range for DRDO MPR based on the RCS figure in that website, for J35 I assumed the worst case (best for them) RCS that is 1/2 of J20:
Based on best RCS for these fighters in the open:
F35 - 0.001, J20 - 0.05, SU57 - 0.1, J35 - 0.025

 

[snakeeyes07]

It is better to spend resources elsewhere in capability enhancement of existing fleet and arsenal buildup then to throw money at SU57. If foreign fighters need to be acquired then getting more Rafale makes sense as training, logistics and tactics for it is already setup.

If SU57 had any significant capability vis-a-vis SU35 & SU30SM2 then Russia would be acquiring it instead of large numbers of SU30SM2.

From a stealth and capability POV, F35A is the best amongst these and by a fair margin.

 

[JConline]

So the plan is to destroy indigenous programs for su-57 because a country that just couldn't defend a single one of its airbases might buy some more Chinese products and park them in those same airbases

You panic merchants are truly the dumbest people on the planet.

Pakistan getting j35 changes nothing. And China already has hundreds of 5th gen platforms.

No import. Find a doctor to treat your anxiety.

This is incredibly short-sighted. If you think that Pakistan isn't doing BDA, refining their tactics, reconsidering their weapon profiling with the help of their Wumao and Atta overlords right now, then you're just plain wrong.

The only reason India performed this well in Op Sindoor is that we went back to the drawing board and did a massive modernization after Balakot. If Indian policymakers had the same mindset as you and were laid back, basking in the glory of Op Sindoor, we would have never managed to do the things that we did.

First rule of War: Do not underestimate the enemy.
Pakistan might be the collection of the dumbest morons in the world but remember that every dog has his day. I agree that Pakis won't be getting the FC31 anytime soon, atleast 4-5 years but the very prospect that Pakis have access to Chinese 5th gen tech on short notice is a matter of concern. Additionally, the world is moving on from 5th gen to 6th gen. It's high time we catch up.

Pakistan isn't a legitimate threat. China is. And they already operate 5th-generation fighters, multiple classes that too. That should be reason enough to fast-track AMCA.

 

[JConline]

View attachment 38729
View attachment 38728
For reference, detection range for DRDO MPR based on the RCS figure in that website, for J35 I assumed the worst case (best for them) RCS that is 1/2 of J20:
View attachment 38731Based on best RCS for these fighters in the open:
F35 - 0.001, J20 - 0.05, SU57 - 0.1, J35 - 0.025
View attachment 38733

Them radars ain't seeing any 5th gen fighter approaching before being blown from the face of the Earth.

 

[snakeeyes07]

Them radars ain't seeing any 5th gen fighter approaching before being blown from the face of the Earth.

Says it on the Radar brochure (read it), this too is from an almost decade old radar and not cutting edge.

 

[Nibbler]

This is incredibly short-sighted. If you think that Pakistan isn't doing BDA, refining their tactics, reconsidering their weapon profiling with the help of their Wumao and Atta overlords right now, then you're just plain wrong.

The only reason India performed this well in Op Sindoor is that we went back to the drawing board and did a massive modernization after Balakot. If Indian policymakers had the same mindset as you and were laid back, basking in the glory of Op Sindoor, we would have never managed to do the things that we did.

First rule of War: Do not underestimate the enemy.
Pakistan might be the collection of the dumbest morons in the world but remember that every dog has his day. I agree that Pakis won't be getting the FC31 anytime soon, atleast 4-5 years but the very prospect that Pakis have access to Chinese 5th gen tech on short notice is a matter of concern. Additionally, the world is moving on from 5th gen to 6th gen. It's high time we catch up.

Pakistan isn't a legitimate threat. China is. And they already operate 5th-generation fighters, multiple classes that too. That should be reason enough to fast-track AMCA.

5th gen fighters are not easy to maintain. It's costly and labour intensive. All of their airfield are within reach.

If pak wants to blow its meager $ on 5th gen fighters instead of air defence that works and loitering munitions/ucavs that don't need a big runway and a maintenance crew then good.

Pakistan cannot do anything about it's geography. It's a little strip of land along the indus river right next door. It will never be a serious threat by itself.

And yes China is legitimate threat and they already have 100s of "5th gen" fighters.

I agree with pushing the AMCA. I don't agree with panicking and crying and pushing for importing the su 57 and getting CAATSAd. It's not worth it by a long shot.

 

[JConline]

Says it on the Radar brochure (read it), this too is from an almost decade old radar and not cutting edge.

View attachment 38734

My point was that 5th-generation jets can fire stand-off weapons from far greater distances than can be detected by this particular radar.

If this is a decade old, and considering how far we've come in radar tech, we probably have way better radars now. Then again, we don't know how resilient these are to 5th gen EW suites.

 

[RoaringTigerHiddenDragon]

I could resort to insults and prove you wrong, but i am not a pimply teenager with issues, so i will refrain.

Not one of the posts you so kindly took the time out to dig proves anything .

Meanwhile, drill this into your head;

- As an Indian, expressing grave concerns about the future doesn't make you a Paki/Chong.
- Asking questions about our political establishment's lack of vision and strategic outlook with regards to our national defence and offense capabilities doesn't make you a Paki/Chong.
- Acknowledging a handful of aircraft might have been lost in the larger scheme of things doesn't make you a Paki/Chong. Our CDS said exactly the same, in different words.
- Expressing a desire to maintain our historical/legacy superiority over the Paki c***s through whatever means possible doesn't make you a Paki/Chong.
- Stating that our foreign allies have not backed us and our one sided tilt towards the west at the expense of our steadfast friends the Russians is a debatable foreign policy approach doesn't make you a Paki/Chong.
- Stating that we should have retaliated massively when the Pakis broke ceasefire doesn't make you a Paki/Chong.
- A desire to see our high levels of deterrence maintained in the future doesn't make you a Paki/Chong.

Lastly, these boards are for healthy debate and sharing of viewpoints from across the spectrum.

Bravado, aggrandisation ,demagoguery, sycophancy and a blind sense of confidence is how empires have fallen.

Never underestimate the enemy, look to the future and ensure we are always two steps ahead, by hook or by crook is my view on things.

Of course you are entitled to your opinion and i am happy to debate teenagers in my spare time. But bring out a counter argument i stead of mudslinging.

You may or may not be an Indian. Leaving that aside, many of your statements are not correct. It is not the stand off distance between the opposing planes that determine an effective kill but the DMax and DMax1 distance. You can have a 1000 KM range and call yourself PL100. Once the missile hits DMax envelope it will be picked up by the RWR of the combatant plane. There is no other way. You cannot escape the RWR.

 

[Drwho]

Su 57 will happen , these people who are against modernisation will keep crying for American stuff which will never happen.

these cry babies on hope of wonderful future should be sent to border with 50 year old weapons . When paki forces have latest Chinese weapon. Once they get shot they will realise difference between new and old stuff.

Indian airforce will face very tough times in future with Pakistan having new jets in bheek. A superior new gen fighter in small battle means a lot maybe not in full war. India can’t face china for now, only issue is Pakistan with china umbrella. That will be very daunting task.

That’s why last battle should have been grown. Because Pakistan was in big dump and we might not find them is same situation again.

 

[snakeeyes07]

5th gen fighters are not easy to maintain. It's costly and labour intensive. All of their airfield are within reach.

If pak wants to blow its meager $ on 5th gen fighters instead of air defence that works and loitering munitions/ucavs that don't need a big runway and a maintenance crew then good.

Pakistan cannot do anything about it's geography. It's a little strip of land along the indus river right next door. It will never be a serious threat by itself.

And yes China is legitimate threat and they already have 100s of "5th gen" fighters.

I agree with pushing the AMCA. I don't agree with panicking and crying and pushing for importing the su 57 and getting CAATSAd. It's not worth it by a long shot.

Exactly my point is that you won't be fighting stealth with stealth in most scenarios. Counter measures (involving capability enhancement) need to be taken even if AMCA magically became available tomorrow.

Need to fast track AMCA, it is a strategic and a time critical program.

But if a deal needs to be made to import stealth fighters then F35 is the only reasonable choice that should be considered.

 

[JConline]

5th gen fighters are not easy to maintain. It's costly and labour intensive. All of their airfield are within reach.

If pak wants to blow its meager $ on 5th gen fighters instead of air defence that works and loitering munitions/ucavs that don't need a big runway and a maintenance crew then good.

Pakistan cannot do anything about it's geography. It's a little strip of land along the indus river right next door. It will never be a serious threat by itself.

And yes China is legitimate threat and they already have 100s of "5th gen" fighters.

I agree with pushing the AMCA. I don't agree with panicking and crying and pushing for importing the su 57 and getting CAATSAd. It's not worth it by a long shot.

All this noise about the J31........

How many times have we heard this bullshit before? Oh the Pakistanis are being armed with Western and Chinese equipment and India is under-prepared. All of you folks who are running around with their tails tucked between your legs fearing some stealth jet might lock onto it, how much of India's capabilities which were showcased in Op Sindoor were you aware of? You need to read more about Chinese military platforms, their testing and their pricing strategies to understand what a f***ing sham Chinese def equipment is. EVEN IF the Chinese jets are worth their weight in salt, Pakistan won't be getting any, atleast for the next 4-5 years. And btw, a 5th gen fighter is like a Bugatti Veyron. A million dollars to buy and then 150k for a freaking oil change. Even if Pakistan get the Bugatti for free, neither do they have the fuel to keep refilling every 12 mins, nor do they have the 150k for the oil change. This is all geopolitical fear mongering. The only reason China is making a big show of offering the J31 to Pakis is because Trump stirred up a media storm by claiming that India is gonna get the F35 and Pakistan needed an equivalent narrative. Simple as that. Time will prove this.


All this noise about F35 or Su57.......

How many times has the US stabbed India in the back? EVEN NOW in the present moment Trump is trying to backstab Modi. You think the Americans will allow us to fly the F35s in the event that Op Sindoor 2.0 needs to be carried out? Do you think they'll allow India to integrate the F35s in the IACCS or NC3I with all the other Russian equipment? Do you think they'll allow India to do future India specific upgrades like we did to the Sukhois and MiGs. A big fat NO. F35 in IAF inventory is as good as a paper plane on your office desk that you can do aerial patrolling in. Sure, it adds to deterrence but what about when this deterrence is tested?
Now let's look at Big Red. Is Russia a WAY more reliable partner than USA? ABSOLUTELY. But the Su57 is essentially not in the same class as the F35 or J31. It's a much larger jet, akin to the J20 or F22. But it nowhere is as stealthy as the F22. The Su 57's RCS for eg is between 0.1 - 0.5 square meters depending on distance of detection. The Rafale's RCS ranges between 0.1-1 square meters. Sure as a stop gap, a few Su57's might do the trick for the next 4-5 years but beyond that, we'd be fools to think the Su57 is potent enough a platform and from everything that has happened in the last month and a half, Indian military and political leadership is far from fools. They are bloody good at their job, and have atleast surpassed my appreciation of India's military might and political will to yield that might.



IMHO, we NEED to fast track the Kaveri and AMCA programs as much as possible. The Kaveri isn't a complete failure. From my appreciation, the project can be massively fast-tracked if India signs MOUs to develop specific systems that we're unable to perfect for the engine with private companies, separately for all such components. For the AMCA Mk1 which will have considerable foreign tech, we should again look at specific fifth gen tech components that will take the longest to develop indigenously. We should compromise on the degree of indigenousness in the Mk1 and have atleast a couple of squadrons by 2035. If we can do that, then Mk2 can be a fully indigenous 5.5 gen platform. Also, India should consider joining the European 6th Gen program. Join, jointly develop the tech in design phase, and then leave the program before prototyping phase, like France did with the Eurofighter. Till the time the AMCA joins the IAF, India should focus on completely operationalizing the Ghatak UAV and CATS warrior program in the next 3-4 years. That is an asymmetric capability, especially in how the India-Pak conflict is escalating in the air domain.

I suggested entering into collaborations or buying ToT off of manufacturers for individual 5th-gen sub-systems. The majority of these can be handled by private sector players. The critical components should be retained by ADA and HAL.

Always been the same formula to get shit done quick: Delegate.

Looks like we mostly agree.

Although I do not agree that India will be CAATSA'd for anything anytime soon, irrespective of whether we buy the Su-57 or not. I understand that the concerned authority with CAATSA needs a rabies vaccination, to put it mildly, but the concerned authority also understands that their own companies would rather set up operations in India than abide by sanctions because sabko apna bank account se hi matlab hai.

 

[Nibbler]

Su 57 will happen , these people who are against modernisation will keep crying for American stuff which will never happen.

these cry babies on hope of wonderful future should be sent to border with 50 year old weapons . When paki forces have latest Chinese weapon. Once they get shot they will realise difference between new and old stuff.

Indian airforce will face very tough times in future with Pakistan having new jets in bheek. A superior new gen fighter in small battle means a lot maybe not in full war. India can’t face china for now, only issue is Pakistan with china umbrella. That will be very daunting task.

That’s why last battle should have been grown. Because Pakistan was in big dump and we might not find them is same situation again.

Pakishite will never be a threat. India will always have escalation dominance. It doesn't matter what they buy.

There is 0 chance of su57. If there is a panic buy it will be f35.

I hope sense will prevail and the money is put to good use instead.

 

[Noob_Saibot]

View attachment 38729
View attachment 38728
For reference, detection range for DRDO MPR based on the RCS figure in that website, for J35 I assumed the worst case (best for them) RCS that is 1/2 of J20:
View attachment 38731Based on best RCS for these fighters in the open:
F35 - 0.001, J20 - 0.05, SU57 - 0.1, J35 - 0.025
View attachment 38733

Fantastic, thank you.

So essentially Su 57 has the least effectiveness in terms of stealth, but still better than anything we have. And the radar, bvr loadout and engine is still formidable and just about enough to make the Pakis think twice before embarking on any misadventures.

 

[JConline]

Exactly my point is that you won't be fighting stealth with stealth for most scenarios. Counter measures (involving capability enhancement) need to be taken even if AMCA magically became available tomorrow.

Need to fast track AMCA, it is a strategic and a time critical program.

But if a deal needs to be made to import stealth fighters then F35 is the only reasonable choice that should be considered.

That would be literal suicide for India. In times of real need, the F-35s will just be showpieces sitting in hangars because the US would never give the launch codes in case we needed to fly them against the Pakistanis. AND the US won't allow us to integrate these jets fully into the IACCS or NC3IC because of all the Russian systems.

What's the point of 5th gen if you cannot integrate into your warfare network?

 

[snakeeyes07]

My point was that 5th-generation jets can fire stand-off weapons from far greater distances than can be detected by this particular radar.

If this is a decade old, and considering how far we've come in radar tech, we probably have way better radars now. Then again, we don't know how resilient these are to 5th gen EW suites.

New stealth specific VHF radar are coming online now, it will be particularly effective against J35 as it is smaller in size than J20 & SU57.

Any EW against a radar would mean J35 emitting, with our network of passive EW and using triangulation, we can pinpoint J35 from hundreds of km behind. If other support EW aircraft like DA20 is providing cover for J35 then those need to targeted by S400 and Kusha to disrupt jamming.

One limitation with J35 is the kind and variety of Standoff weapons it can fire as it would need to fit in the internal weapon bay to maintain stealth. Good luck fitting CM400 in there. Could be boosted glide bomb or subsonic cruise missile.

One of the counter measure is that you assume J35 will be able to launch the SOW weapons, instead protect assets with QRSAM and maybe imported Iron Dome to intercept SOW weapons themselves.

 

[snakeeyes07]

Fantastic, thank you.

So essentially Su 57 has the least effectiveness in terms of stealth, but still better than anything we have. And the radar, bvr loadout and engine is still formidable and just about enough to make the Pakis think twice before embarking on any misadventures.

With that kind of RCS, no particular advantage you get by acquiring SU57 with kind of investment and time that will be needed. Maybe Rafale would get detected around 50km earlier, some of it would be offset by range advantage of Meteor vs R77M.

 

[RoaringTigerHiddenDragon]

It's not, 6th gen focus will not be allowed about stealth.

J20 is a paper tiger with no proven capability and dubious stealth capabilities.

'Mighty Dragon's hidden flaws: IAF Rafales outclass ‘overhyped’ PLA jets' | India News - Times of India

India News: The Chengdu J-20, also known as the "Mighty Dragon," a Chinese 5th-generation stealth fighter, has come under scrutiny for its stealth capabilities an.

timesofindia.indiatimes.com

I never argued that J20 or J35 is not an issues. It's the whole reason I'm arguing for Su57 as a counter till the time AMCA comes online.

If Rafael allowed integration with our systems , I'd recommend to go for a few squadrons, but that's unlikely.

F35 is moronic with US restrictions and no integration with our systems. Going for G414 was idiotic too and we are seeing the delays.

Maintenance of F35 is a nightmare and will suck more funds. Besides, the US will never allow their use against Porkies.

As I have repeated several times, if we feel we can handle J20 or J35 without a 5th gen fighter jet of our own, go for it. If not, there is no viable option apart from Su57.

Where do you get the idea that Su57 is available? Su57 is not available and we are NOT going to take risks with the Russian supply chain when they have a war of attrition going on with Ukraine. No chance. Su57 is NOT at all available in the near term. It is not proven at all.

 

[Noob_Saibot]

With that kind of RCS, no particular advantage you get by acquiring SU57 with kind of investment and time that will be needed. Maybe Rafale would get detected 30-50km earlier, some of it would be offset by range advantage of Meteor vs R77M.

What about the R37M which has been integrated with the Su 57. It far outranges the meteor and anything the chinks have at the moment.

 

[snakeeyes07]

That would be literal suicide for India. In times of real need, the F-35s will just be showpieces sitting in hangars because the US would never give the launch codes in case we needed to fly them against the Pakistanis. AND the US won't allow us to integrate these jets fully into the IACCS or NC3IC because of all the Russian systems.

What's the point of 5th gen if you cannot integrate into your warfare network?

I agree integration would be minimal but only F35A is one plane on offer which even if they operate in 4 ship formations by themselves on ambush (AIM120C8) and DEAD (AARGM-ER) missions could create havoc in Pakistan and deter China (prevent conflict there).

If import route is taken, you don't need to import more than 1-2 squadrons until AMCA comes online.

 

[snakeeyes07]

What about the R37M which has been integrated with the Su 57. It far outranges the meteor and anything the chinks have at the moment.

R37M is a massive missile and would need to be carried outside like PL17 & PL21 on J20 & J35. R37M on SU30MKI or SU57 (no stealth) is pretty much the same thing in terms of capablity.