Pakistan Air Force : News Updates & Discussions . (1 Viewer)

[vampyrbladez]

View: https://x.com/Defencematrix1/status/1915997708667777176


View: https://x.com/RupprechtDeino/status/1916000970166649330


View: https://x.com/Defencematrix1/status/1916006733316497449

 

[Azaad]

Pakistan to start inducting FC-31 fighters

China is set to start supplying the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) with its Shenyang FC-31 ‘Gyrfalcon' multirole stealth fighter aircraft, a senior Pakistani government...

www.janes.com

I think it's time the gloves come off. We need to explore selling advanced weaponry like the to Taiwan.

 

[Brood Father]

Pakistan to start inducting FC-31 fighters

China is set to start supplying the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) with its Shenyang FC-31 ‘Gyrfalcon' multirole stealth fighter aircraft, a senior Pakistani government...

www.janes.com

I think it's time the gloves come off. We need to explore selling advanced weaponry like the to Taiwan.

Fc31 is J35?

 

[concard]

Pakistan to start inducting FC-31 fighters

China is set to start supplying the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) with its Shenyang FC-31 ‘Gyrfalcon' multirole stealth fighter aircraft, a senior Pakistani government...

www.janes.com

I think it's time the gloves come off. We need to explore selling advanced weaponry like the to Taiwan.

Janes is a reputed source but look who is the author of the article. At this point I am thinking they are bluffing. Chinese haven't even set up a production line. It is still in testing phase. If they are going to give them within 3 years, it will be half baked product. Moreover, Chinese won't do charity. They gave them a loan to buy J-10s which they will have to pay over 10 years. I wonder who will be funding this purchase.

 

[INDIAFIRST]

Janes is a reputed source but look who is the author of the article. At this point I am thinking they are bluffing. Chinese haven't even set up a production line. It is still in testing phase. If they are going to give them within 3 years, it will be half baked product. Moreover, Chinese won't do charity. They gave them a loan to buy J-10s which they will have to pay over 10 years. I wonder who will be funding this purchase.

Point is they will be training on the 5th generation ac, with whole system and we are not,

 

[Azaad]

Fc31 is J35?

Yes. Land based version.

Janes is a reputed source but look who is the author of the article. At this point I am thinking they are bluffing. Chinese haven't even set up a production line. It is still in testing phase. If they are going to give them within 3 years, it will be half baked product. Moreover, Chinese won't do charity. They gave them a loan to buy J-10s which they will have to pay over 10 years. I wonder who will be funding this purchase.

Jane's won't risk a hit to it's reputation. I'm not saying they've unimpeachable integrity but it's very rare for them to be completely off the mark.

Frankly we don't know to what extent the J-35 or its land based version the FC-31 has progressed. We assume it's still under testing in as far as the carrier based version goes but they already have 3 carriers sailing & if reports are to be believed by 2030 they expect to sail 3 more carriers.

These have to have an air component. The J-15 derived to a large extent from the Su-33 is a sub optimal solution much like the MiG-29K we're saddled with. They'd have to speed up induction of the J-35 ASAP if they intend to stick to their schedule of taking Taiwan by 2030.

Let's assume this report is correct & the Paxtanis are getting the FC-31 if not in a couple of months then by the end of this year . As far as the other details like payment etc goes it'd be worked out just like they did the J-10 purchase. Formation of 2 squadrons would take time though I'd not give it more than 3 years from the delivery of the first FA.

It'd be a potent platform especially if it comes equipped with the PL-17 which has a range of ~ 400 kms , dual pulse motor , AESA seeker with LPI & other passive sensors. It's not something to be dismissed lightly.

 

[redpanda]

Yes. Land based version.

Jane's won't risk a hit to it's reputation. I'm not saying they've unimpeachable integrity but it's very rare for them to be completely off the mark.

Frankly we don't know to what extent the J-35 or its land based version the FC-31 has progressed. We assume it's still under testing in as far as the carrier based version goes but they already have 3 carriers sailing & if reports are to be believed by 2030 they expect to sail 3 more carriers.

These have to have an air component. The J-15 derived to a large extent from the Su-33 is a sub optimal solution much like the MiG-29K we're saddled with. They'd have to speed up induction of the J-35 ASAP if they intend to stick to their schedule of taking Taiwan by 2030.

Let's assume this report is correct & the Paxtanis are getting the FC-31 if not in a couple of months then by the end of this year . As far as the other details like payment etc goes it'd be worked out just like they did the J-10 purchase. Formation of 2 squadrons would take time though I'd not give it more than 3 years from the delivery of the first FA.

It'd be a potent platform especially if it comes equipped with the PL-17 which has a range of ~ 400 kms , dual pulse motor , AESA seeker with LPI & other passive sensors. It's not something to be dismissed lightly.

Yeah we shouldn't take it lightly. But I don't think they will give their state of the art PL-17 to Pakistan. Nothing stops it from getting into the hands of Burgericans. I think they will give them an older iteration with less range aka an export version.

 

[ashes]

Yeah we shouldn't take it lightly. But I don't think they will give their state of the art PL-17 to Pakistan. Nothing stops it from getting into the hands of Burgericans. I think they will give them an older iteration with less range aka an export version.

Dude , plz guyz for god'sakes stop downplaying the situation. People here were claiming that pl15e is nothing and here we are. Then they were claiming that pakistan doesn't have money to buy, and they are getting these jets in next few months. Now you are again trying to downplay the situation. Pl 17 E will simply gotgun even our best astra mk3 which will take atleast 2 years.
Our overestimate is killing us

 

[redpanda]

Dude , plz guyz for god'sakes stop downplaying the situation. People here were claiming that pl15e is nothing and here we are. Then they were claiming that pakistan doesn't have money to buy, and they are getting these jets in next few months. Now you are again trying to downplay the situation. Pl 17 E will simply gotgun even our best astra mk3 which will take atleast 2 years.
Our overestimate is killing us

Where I'm down playing? Do you lack comprehension? Read the first line of my comment. I'm just stating I don't think they will give them their own domestic variant of PL-17. Some folks here like you were doing wolf cry that China gave Pakistan PL-15 instead of PL-15E and were abusing people who were just stating it's PL-15E.

 

[ashes]

Where I'm down playing? Do you lack comprehension? Read the first line of my comment. I'm just stating I don't think they will give them their own domestic variant of PL-17. Some folks here like you were doing wolf cry that China gave Pakistan PL-15 instead of PL-15E and were abusing people who were just stating it's PL-15E.

And may I ask you how will this downgraded version of PL-17 would outgun Astra MK3? At best it will in the same league as Mk3.

Dude mk2 isn't even in service yet. Let alone Mk3 , it will at least take 1.5 years from now to be properly inducted. Even if mk2 comes online and pl17 E will still be atleast 250 if we reduce the original range of pl17 to 300 which said to be 400

 

[redpanda]

Dude mk2 isn't even in service yet. Let alone Mk3 , it will at least take 1.5 years from now to be properly inducted. Even if mk2 comes online and pl17 E will still be atleast 250 if we reduce the original range of pl17 to 300 which said to be 400

Okay Mahoday Ash. All our AWACs will soon fall prey to their BVRAAMs.

Oh Lord Vodka shower us with sweet sweet R-37M please .

 

[ashes]

Okay Mahoday Ash. All our AWACs will soon fall prey to their BVRAAMs.

Oh Lord Vodka shower us with sweet sweet R-37M please .

Nvm

 

[FalconSlayers]

List of their active aircrafts at end of their life cycles

53 F-7s
86 Mirage-III/5
75 F-16s (54 of them Block-15 MLUs)
50 JF-17 Block-1

4x 2nd hand IL-78 made during Soviet era
18x C-130 Hercules, 7 of whom are 2nd hand from Belgium and rest are 6 decades old.


Majority of them will have to be retired an replaced next decade, or reduce their sorties to conserve airframe life.

List of active Pakistan Air Force aircraft - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Same is the case with their AAC

50 AH-1 Cobras at end of their lifecycle

And only thing now they're left with is 4x Mi-35s and some Z-10s rumoured to be bought be them

48 Mi-17 from 1990s
43 Puma from 1970s

Along with their Alouettes and Lamas from 1960s and 80s.

Pakistan Army Aviation Corps - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Even their NAA as well.
6x P-3C Orions from 90s, to be replaced with Sea Sultans based on used 2nd hand Lineage 1000 aircrafts with 3 ordered so far but 10 planned (most likely won't happen).

23x Sea Kings and 7x Alouettes bought in 70s, to be replaced with what no one knows.

List of aircraft of the Pakistan Naval Air Arm - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

-----


I genuinely wonder how are they going to maintain their numbers like they used to by Uncle Sam's blessings and sacrificing economic future in the past.


With them wanting to buy J-35s, a 5th gen aircraft that require a lot more maintenance, are twin engined and engines are chinese, they won't be able to buy a lot of them. Even J-10s they were able to buy just 20 on loans when they wanted 36 of them.


Next 10-15 years are going to be painful for their aircraft inventories, far far worse than what we think of IAF's condition rn. , Either replace them, reduce sortie rates significantly or shrink.

 

[concard]

List of their active aircrafts at end of their life cycles

53 F-7s
86 Mirage-III/5
75 F-16s (54 of them Block-15 MLUs)
50 JF-17 Block-1

4x 2nd hand IL-78 made during Soviet era
18x C-130 Hercules, 7 of whom are 2nd hand from Belgium and rest are 6 decades old.


Majority of them will have to be retired an replaced next decade, or reduce their sorties to conserve airframe life.

List of active Pakistan Air Force aircraft - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Same is the case with their AAC

50 AH-1 Cobras at end of their lifecycle

And only thing now they're left with is 4x Mi-35s and some Z-10s rumoured to be bought be them

48 Mi-17 from 1990s
43 Puma from 1970s

Along with their Alouettes and Lamas from 1960s and 80s.

Pakistan Army Aviation Corps - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Even their NAA as well.
6x P-3C Orions from 90s, to be replaced with Sea Sultans based on used 2nd hand Lineage 1000 aircrafts with 3 ordered so far but 10 planned (most likely won't happen).

23x Sea Kings and 7x Alouettes bought in 70s, to be replaced with what no one knows.

List of aircraft of the Pakistan Naval Air Arm - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

-----


I genuinely wonder how are they going to maintain their numbers like they used to by Uncle Sam's blessings and sacrificing economic future in the past.


With them wanting to buy J-35s, a 5th gen aircraft that require a lot more maintenance, are twin engined and engines are chinese, they won't be able to buy a lot of them. Even J-10s they were able to buy just 20 on loans when they wanted 36 of them.


Next 10-15 years are going to be painful for their aircraft inventories, far far worse than what we think of IAF's condition rn. , Either replace them, reduce sortie rates significantly or shrink.

My guess is they have already reduced sortie rates drastically. We have Mirage-2000 which is no longer in production. We had to buy Mirage-2000 from other countries who were retiring it to scrap for spare parts. Now imagine with vintage Mirage - III and 5 situation, it will be a nightmare to keep the aircraft in flying condition. With respect to JF-17, I had my doubts. The Engine used on JF-17 is the same as the one used in our Mig-29s. Here is an article from 2016 from their own.

JF-17 logs over 19,000 operational flight hours - Quwa

Pakistan's JF-17s have logged over 19,000 operational flight hours, talks are also underway with up to eight countries interested in the Thunder

quwa.org

There were 65 JF-17s in 2016 in active service. JF-17 was inducted in 2011. The article states since it's induction until 2016 they logged 19,000 operational flight hours. Let's do some rudimentary math here

19,000 / 65 = ~292 hours per aircraft over 5 years which results in ~58 hours per aircraft in a year. That's ~5 hours in a month for an aircraft.

This means on an average the older JF-17s logged only 58 hours in a year. That's absymal. Granted they did not recieve all 65 aircrafts at once. Even if we take only 36 aircrafts with the same numbers it will still give us

19,000 / 36 = ~527 hours per aircaft over 5 years which results in ~105 hours per aircaft in a year.

That's ~9 hours in a month for an aircraft. Now imagine all the other aircrafts you have listed which are over 30 years old.

 

[shade2]

List of their active aircrafts at end of their life cycles

53 F-7s
86 Mirage-III/5
75 F-16s (54 of them Block-15 MLUs)
50 JF-17 Block-1

4x 2nd hand IL-78 made during Soviet era
18x C-130 Hercules, 7 of whom are 2nd hand from Belgium and rest are 6 decades old.


Majority of them will have to be retired an replaced next decade, or reduce their sorties to conserve airframe life.

List of active Pakistan Air Force aircraft - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Same is the case with their AAC

50 AH-1 Cobras at end of their lifecycle

And only thing now they're left with is 4x Mi-35s and some Z-10s rumoured to be bought be them

48 Mi-17 from 1990s
43 Puma from 1970s

Along with their Alouettes and Lamas from 1960s and 80s.

Pakistan Army Aviation Corps - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Even their NAA as well.
6x P-3C Orions from 90s, to be replaced with Sea Sultans based on used 2nd hand Lineage 1000 aircrafts with 3 ordered so far but 10 planned (most likely won't happen).

23x Sea Kings and 7x Alouettes bought in 70s, to be replaced with what no one knows.

List of aircraft of the Pakistan Naval Air Arm - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

-----


I genuinely wonder how are they going to maintain their numbers like they used to by Uncle Sam's blessings and sacrificing economic future in the past.


With them wanting to buy J-35s, a 5th gen aircraft that require a lot more maintenance, are twin engined and engines are chinese, they won't be able to buy a lot of them. Even J-10s they were able to buy just 20 on loans when they wanted 36 of them.


Next 10-15 years are going to be painful for their aircraft inventories, far far worse than what we think of IAF's condition rn. , Either replace them, reduce sortie rates significantly or shrink.

They have to commit to being a rakhail of either one of their Sugar Daddies instead of being a mast raand like they are currently

Them being a randi is why neither US nor China will offer them the Good Shit, and definitely not for free like they used to receive earlier via military aid.

I think they will finally do nikah with China for his big, black J-35 and block Uncle Sam's phone number

As it is most of their modern acquisitions are from China only, tanks, aircraft, ships what have you.

Anyway, good for us only if they become a full Chinese vassal, Uncle Sam will finally behave himself

 

[FalconSlayers]

They have to commit to being a rakhail of either one of their Sugar Daddies instead of being a mast raand like they are currently

Them being a randi is why neither US nor China will offer them the Good Shit, and definitely not for free like they used to receive earlier via military aid.

I think they will finally do nikah with China for his big, black J-35 and block Uncle Sam's phone number

As it is most of their modern acquisitions are from China only, tanks, aircraft, ships what have you.

Anyway, good for us only if they become a full Chinese vassal, Uncle Sam will finally behave himself

Even then it won't help. Their military is more than half the size of India for an economy 25 times smaller. Unsustainable by all means. Their AAC used to operate more attack helicopters than India at some time, now is left with just 4 Mi-35s and some token Z-10s (no one knows how many, if at all) while we have 310+ attack helicopters in service and on order. I see a similar future for PAF. 180 LCA Mk-1A are more or less on order and at 30 per year peak production will be delivered by 2032, apart from that LCA Mk-2, AMCA and maybe... maybe HLFT-42 and ground based TEDBF in late 2030s. Apart from that RPSA Ghataks which we can buy in larger numbers.

With engine maintenance and lower airframe life, even the remaining Chinese jets, especially JF-17s, PAF will be facing tough time.

And I am not counting any 114 Rafale MRFA deal either. Oh, and Indian Navy also has 26 Rafales on order with more to be bought incase TEDBF programme goes nowhere, with 12 more Su-30 MKI on order as last tranche for IAF.


Ultimately, their shallow bankrupt economy can't sustain such toys in large numbers. And this is just aircrafts I am talking about, leave other equipment. That's even worse.

 

[shade2]

Even then it won't help. Their military is more than half the size of India for an economy 25 times smaller. Unsustainable by all means. Their AAC used to operate more attack helicopters than India at some time, now is left with just 4 Mi-35s and some token Z-10s (no one knows how many, if at all) while we have 310+ in service and on order. I see a similar future for them. 180 LCA Mk-1A are more or less on order and at 30 per year peak production will be delivered by 2032, apart from that LCA Mk-2, AMCA and maybe... maybe HLFT-42 and ground based TEDBF in late 2030s. Apart from that RPSA Ghataks which we can buy in larger numbers.

With engine maintenance and lower airframe life, even the remaining Chinese jets, especially JF-17s, PAF will be facing tough time.

And I am not counting any 114 Rafale MRFA deal either. Oh, and Indian Navy also has 26 Rafales on order with more to be bought incase TEDBF programme goes nowhere, with 12 more Su-30 MKI on order as last tranche for IAF.


Ultimately, their shallow bankrupt economy can't sustain such toys in large numbers. And this is just aircrafts I am talking about, leave other equipment. That's even worse.

It will help, since they can't pay their own bills they have to sell themselves to either the 56% mutt or slit-eyed master who will then supply them with all the relevant materials to do their "job" which is fighting India.

They cannot just give up going equal-equal and fighting Endia and being a normal ass country, since their whole grip on power depends on it.

There is currently no way for them to get new toys apart from commiting to one sugar daddy.

Times of them enjoying threesomes will be over by the next decade.

 

[FalconSlayers]

My guess is they have already reduced sortie rates drastically. We have Mirage-2000 which is no longer in production. We had to buy Mirage-2000 from other countries who were retiring it to scrap for spare parts. Now imagine with vintage Mirage - III and 5 situation, it will be a nightmare to keep the aircraft in flying condition. With respect to JF-17, I had my doubts. The Engine used on JF-17 is the same as the one used in our Mig-29s. Here is an article from 2016 from their own.

JF-17 logs over 19,000 operational flight hours - Quwa

Pakistan's JF-17s have logged over 19,000 operational flight hours, talks are also underway with up to eight countries interested in the Thunder

quwa.org

There were 65 JF-17s in 2016 in active service. JF-17 was inducted in 2011. The article states since it's induction until 2016 they logged 19,000 operational flight hours. Let's do some rudimentary math here

19,000 / 65 = ~292 hours per aircraft over 5 years which results in ~58 hours per aircraft in a year. That's ~5 hours in a month for an aircraft.

This means on an average the older JF-17s logged only 58 hours in a year. That's absymal. Granted they did not recieve all 65 aircrafts at once. Even if we take only 36 aircrafts with the same numbers it will still give us

19,000 / 36 = ~527 hours per aircaft over 5 years which results in ~105 hours per aircaft in a year.

That's ~9 hours in a month for an aircraft. Now imagine all the other aircrafts you have listed which are over 30 years old.

Yup, and with chinese jets this number will be worse. I mean even our Russian-engined aircrafts don't really have great availability rates, and thanks to HAL's expertise in license-making those jet engines we were able to increase MTBOs of those engines on our own, but they're still worse than western, especially American engines.

Which is why LCA with highly composite airframes and those American engines make it a great combo. High airframe life, high MTBO, and low MTBFs. We can fly far more sorties with them.


The very reason a lot of our jets crash is due to current low squadron numbers making those jets fly more than what they should be as IAF doesn't seem to compromise on annual flight hours.

 

[shade2]

Yup, and with chinese jets this number will be worse. I mean even our Russian-engined aircrafts don't really have great availability rates, and thanks to HAL's expertise in license-making those jet engines we were able to increase MTBOs of those engines on our own, but they're still worse than western, especially American engines.

Which is why LCA with highly composite airframes and those American engines make it a great combo. High airframe life, high MTBO, and low MTGFs. We can fly far more sorties with them.


The very reason a lot of our jets crash is due to current low squadron numbers making those jets fly more than what they should be as IAF doesn't seem to compromise on annual flight hours.

Chings offered them their WS-420 engine for the Blunder to replace the RD33 from Roos

The Pakis said "No thank you janab"

Imagine how bad the ((( export quality ))) ching engines must be.

Even for the subs they wanted German engines, while Chinese offered their own, to which their reply was "Na karay Paijan na karay!"

 

[FalconSlayers]

It will help, since they can't pay their own bills they have to sell themselves to either the 56% mutt or slit-eyed master who will then supply them with all the relevant materials to do their "job" which is fighting India.

They cannot just give up going equal-equal and fighting Endia and being a normal ass country, since their whole grip on power depends on it.

There is currently no way for them to get new toys apart from commiting to one sugar daddy.

Times of them enjoying threesomes will be over by the next decade.

As I said, even if they commit to a new sugar daddy, nobody will give advanced fighter jets in dozens to them for free. Chinese gave a loan at high interest rates to sell just 20 J-10C. Those are single engines, now imagine what happens if they buy J-35s which will be much much more costly to maintain, and will probably get destroyed on ground before they even take off. In any optimistic scenario, their military's situation is grim.

Even their AEW&CS have turned nearly 2 decades old, and they lost 2 of them. Even in AEW&CS we have 12 in pipeline. Apart from 3 ISTAR aircrafts, and Navy's surveillance assets to monitor their coasts.

Our SAM density is only going to increase multifold from now, beyond their capability to evade with their obsolete missiles.


All I see is them getting shrunk like how their 2nd home UK got shrunk.