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Small Arms and Weapons

is there any thread for personal experiences of handling different indian or foreign weapons by forum members ??
This is a legendary article regarding the INSAS rifle that is almost 15 years old by an Indian gun owner.

The INSAS 5.56mm Rifle- A Technical Treatise
https://indiansforguns.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=9131&sid=d641f7346dfb9e881cdebeb97bbab1bc

Here is Vladimir Onokoy, the spokesman for Kalashnikov Concern (Russia) talking about his experience with the INSAS rifle.

Indian Army Plans to Upgrade INSAS Rifle. Part 2 - My Experience

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog...ade-insas-rifle-part-2-my-experience-44815429
 
This is a legendary article regarding the INSAS rifle that is almost 15 years old by an Indian gun owner.

The INSAS 5.56mm Rifle- A Technical Treatise
https://indiansforguns.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=9131&sid=d641f7346dfb9e881cdebeb97bbab1bc

Here is Vladimir Onokoy, the spokesman for Kalashnikov Concern (Russia) talking about his experience with the INSAS rifle.

Indian Army Plans to Upgrade INSAS Rifle. Part 2 - My Experience
https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog...ade-insas-rifle-part-2-my-experience-44815429

nice article by Vladimir Onokoy,
he posted hell of fresh pics of INSAS prototype from that St. Petersburg museum...but apparently in good ol' D F I it was me who worked my arse off to track that particular INSAS down and providing some info about it in end of 2022, can't help but gloat about it as it's one of my proudest firearms related post so far - and since then seems even these westerners have taken a note of its presence in that museum and that particular cabinet

1740515497981.webp

since good ol' D F I is no more, i only have this to show as proof, the timestamps for images i uploaded there with that post

though i must say, some lesser known russian bloggers did mention about INSAS Prototype's presence in that St. Petersburg museum and that's where i got the exact location of it, and fortunately google maps helped with its 3-d tour thing (using that visual tour, i literally went from one corner to other from very entry point thorough whole museum to finally find it on second or third floor, at some small arms room, near a window nearby corner of the room) - but even then, these same people never bothered much to provide fresh, high res pics of it and everyone just totally forgot about it all over insignificance, but with that post of mine on D F I, and all upgrades being done to INSAS by FAB-style kits they suddenly got interest in it, hhmm? 😏


 
nice article by Vladimir Onokoy,
he posted hell of fresh pics of INSAS prototype from that St. Petersburg museum...but apparently in good ol' D F I it was me who worked my arse off to track that particular INSAS down and providing some info about it in end of 2022, can't help but gloat about it as it's one of my proudest firearms related post so far - and since then seems even these westerners have taken a note of its presence in that museum and that particular cabinet

View attachment 26103

since good ol' D F I is no more, i only have this to show as proof, the timestamps for images i uploaded there with that post

though i must say, some lesser known russian bloggers did mention about INSAS Prototype's presence in that St. Petersburg museum and that's where i got the exact location of it, and fortunately google maps helped with its 3-d tour thing (using that visual tour, i literally went from one corner to other from very entry point thorough whole museum to finally find it on second or third floor, at some small arms room, near a window nearby corner of the room) - but even then, these same people never bothered much to provide fresh, high res pics of it and everyone just totally forgot about it all over insignificance, but with that post of mine on D F I, and all upgrades being done to INSAS by FAB-style kits they suddenly got interest in it, hhmm? 😏


lyndon schuler too spotted the insas in this specific museum and i had posted the pic of it last month or so.
 
nice article by Vladimir Onokoy,
he posted hell of fresh pics of INSAS prototype from that St. Petersburg museum...but apparently in good ol' D F I it was me who worked my arse off to track that particular INSAS down and providing some info about it in end of 2022, can't help but gloat about it as it's one of my proudest firearms related post so far - and since then seems even these westerners have taken a note of its presence in that museum and that particular cabinet

View attachment 26103

since good ol' D F I is no more, i only have this to show as proof, the timestamps for images i uploaded there with that post

though i must say, some lesser known russian bloggers did mention about INSAS Prototype's presence in that St. Petersburg museum and that's where i got the exact location of it, and fortunately google maps helped with its 3-d tour thing (using that visual tour, i literally went from one corner to other from very entry point thorough whole museum to finally find it on second or third floor, at some small arms room, near a window nearby corner of the room) - but even then, these same people never bothered much to provide fresh, high res pics of it and everyone just totally forgot about it all over insignificance, but with that post of mine on D F I, and all upgrades being done to INSAS by FAB-style kits they suddenly got interest in it, hhmm? 😏


No amount of upgrades by Fab or even sureshot is gonna make it a worthy try bro.because the build quality is shit unlike Fal or Ak203.
 
No amount of upgrades by Fab or even sureshot is gonna make it a worthy try bro.because the build quality is shit unlike Fal or Ak203.
What if the license is given to some competent player like LMT to produce machined version of it with proper AR style furniture. I don’t think technically its that bad.
 
What if the license is given to some competent player like LMT to produce machined version of it with proper AR style furniture. I don’t think technically its that bad.
Why reinventing the wheel? It was obsolete even in 1998 when it was first introduced.We need to design new ones .Plus that one was too bulky for a 5.56 weapon even if we forget the crude stamped sheet metal parts.
 
Why reinventing the wheel? It was obsolete even in 1998 when it was first introduced.We need to design new ones .Plus that one was too bulky for a 5.56 weapon even if we forget the crude stamped sheet metal parts.
You said its Obsolete. What do you mean by that, as AFAIK all small arms designs are very old and hardly any change over time. Isn’t its just another standard long stroke piston design with focus on reliability like AKs. I mean we are still importing WW2 era guns.
 
What if the license is given to some competent player like LMT to produce machined version of it with proper AR style furniture. I don’t think technically its that bad.
as i've said before, make new gen INSAS out of ARDE 5.56mm Carbine // Ugram rifle platform, the one that has SIG-540-ish two piece receiver design, and lots of problem shall be solved

alternatively, we do have milled receiver INSASes in form of those Excalibur Mk.1C, "Indian Assault Rifle" in 7.62 NATO and if you look at Trichy it's also similar stuff

for existing INSASes with good serviceable barrels, the best solution is to provide 'receiver update kits' for it, means pulling out INSAS barrel out of rifle and placing it in newer receiver or platform, could be either based on ARDE 5.56mm Carbine fork, or Excalibur Mk.1C fork

now this may seem outrageous to many, like why don't just invest in a new rifle itself, but one of costliest element on a rifle is its barrel, and if we can use same barrel + gas system (hopefully) + bolt carrier (hopefully) from older INSASes on newer receivers it'll still be cheaper enough to go through such upgrades...and if you put picatiny rails on top and handguards (already there on ARDE 5.56mm Carbine, and Excalibur Mk.1C) it'll even save us costs in getting those israeli FAB style kits for most parts

so it's possible, but we lack intent...
 
as i've said before, make new gen INSAS out of ARDE 5.56mm Carbine // Ugram rifle platform, the one that has SIG-540-ish two piece receiver design, and lots of problem shall be solved

alternatively, we do have milled receiver INSASes in form of those Excalibur Mk.1C, "Indian Assault Rifle" in 7.62 NATO and if you look at Trichy it's also similar stuff

for existing INSASes with good serviceable barrels, the best solution is to provide 'receiver update kits' for it, means pulling out INSAS barrel out of rifle and placing it in newer receiver or platform, could be either based on ARDE 5.56mm Carbine fork, or Excalibur Mk.1C fork

now this may seem outrageous to many, like why don't just invest in a new rifle itself, but one of costliest element on a rifle is its barrel, and if we can use same barrel + gas system (hopefully) + bolt carrier (hopefully) from older INSASes on newer receivers it'll still be cheaper enough to go through such upgrades...and if you put picatiny rails on top and handguards (already there on ARDE 5.56mm Carbine, and Excalibur Mk.1C) it'll even save us costs in getting those israeli FAB style kits for most parts

so it's possible, but we lack intent...
If may I ask, what is the problem with INSAS receiver ?
 
as i've said before, make new gen INSAS out of ARDE 5.56mm Carbine // Ugram rifle platform, the one that has SIG-540-ish two piece receiver design, and lots of problem shall be solved

alternatively, we do have milled receiver INSASes in form of those Excalibur Mk.1C, "Indian Assault Rifle" in 7.62 NATO and if you look at Trichy it's also similar stuff

for existing INSASes with good serviceable barrels, the best solution is to provide 'receiver update kits' for it, means pulling out INSAS barrel out of rifle and placing it in newer receiver or platform, could be either based on ARDE 5.56mm Carbine fork, or Excalibur Mk.1C fork

now this may seem outrageous to many, like why don't just invest in a new rifle itself, but one of costliest element on a rifle is its barrel, and if we can use same barrel + gas system (hopefully) + bolt carrier (hopefully) from older INSASes on newer receivers it'll still be cheaper enough to go through such upgrades...and if you put picatiny rails on top and handguards (already there on ARDE 5.56mm Carbine, and Excalibur Mk.1C) it'll even save us costs in getting those israeli FAB style kits for most parts

so it's possible, but we lack intent...
I believe a simple improved 30 round Magazine should be supplied for existing INSAS’s will significantly improve their performance since a lot of their reliability issues stem from defective/poorly designed magazines. It won’t solve the Cosmetic, QC, Ergonomic and Finishing issues that have plagued the rifles due to the shoddy practices of the erstwhile OFB, but a decent short term measure. This can even be implemented by CAPFs and Police Forces too.
 
If may I ask, what is the problem with INSAS receiver ?
crudely manufactured, perhaps to increase output from factory

1740742513024.webp

it's stamped sheet metal design like most AKMs and current gen AK-203, and yet they riveted the inner guide rails for bolt carrier, perhaps to speed up production or thinking it'll 'strengthen' the build...i mean look at MAG 58's receiver, that too has riveted inner guide rails for bolt carrier, BUT MAG 58 has a thick receiver comprised of side plates and trunnions that has to be riveted for that size of mass production...meanwhile INSAS' receiver plate is barely 1 to 1.5mm thick, typical to AK design, so drilling holes that nearby and riveting a rail PLUS a separate ejector blade (that's typically part of the rail itself, usually heat-treated to strengthen it) on its left side, on a relatively thinner build of receiver... 🤷‍♂️ doesn't seem like ideal thing to me...
as for all standard kalashnikovs of stamped sheet receiver design goes, they spot-weld carrier rails there, that much strength is sufficient and it looks elegant too (do note, aesthetics are everything)

1740743768348.webp
notice how visibally thick side plates are here on MAG 58's receiver, those tiny inverted L shaped stripes at centre are bolt carrier rails there, affixed by some heavy riveting, overall entire receiver on MAG 58 is rivet-build, because it works there

i've read on certain youtube comment from some ex-serviceman who got issued INSAS, that riveted sheet metal parts sometimes come loose and also, quality of sheet metal used for receivers is also questionable something like 'pins falling out' (pins holding trigger group parts) ? it could happen if pins are 'digging open' those holes meant for housing trigger parts, as they rotate around that axes formed by pins, you know...hammer goes at least 60 degs, trigger around same degrees when fully pulled, and ~30 deg rotation for sear...so torques from those rotations around might be gradually digging out receiver holes that they eventually come loose and 'fall out'...this even happens to some extent on milled receiver designs of non-mil-spec types, reason many civilian AR-15s are given "anti-rotation pins" - an additional holder that firmly keeps pins in place so they don't dig open those holes

(next point, assuming it's 1mm thickness receiver, source is that infamous 'technical treatise' on INSAS at indians for guns phorum) usually some AKM and above modern Kalashnikov pattern rifles have these cross-embossing around pins holes, originally so same trigger parts can be used on milled and stamped receiver AKs by reducing some dimensional differences, but to some extent it provides some additional surface so those pins don't turn/rotate around that easily, but well INSAS most builds i've seen, do not...i'm not sure if they heat-treat those xy-embossed-holes for pins but yeah they eventually realised it's nice thing to do, we did not...if my memory serves right, only Kalantak 'Micro Assault Rifle' (predecessor design to ARDE's 5.56mm Carbine) was given xy-embossed-holes around pins on its receiver...but that remained a prototype level project at maximum 🤷‍♂️

1740746328220.webp


now do note this is just one comment i'm talking about above, is perhaps only complaint i read like that so it could be coming from some really poorly made / abused INSAS, but for a military rifle it does have a crudely built receiver...such things should not be happening to start with...

finally, even if you keep 'upgrades' in mind, a receiver is a heart to a firearm's design, you want to bring some significant upgrades, you have to alter it at some point...and unfortunately kalashnikov design is such that to bring any major upgrades there, you have to alter its receiver, or made compromises around that design itself...
that's why we have those "adapters" that goes in standard akm receiver to even house a modern AR pattern buttstock there, because old era holder doesn't work with it, and it's mostly furniture upgrades that one can do on typical Kalashnikov pattern firearms, you can put any high quality railed top-guards that enables mounting of modern optics there, and it'll still have some 'play' there, affecting accuracy at longer distances...

but you replace that kalashnikov style receiver with something else, while keeping major internals same, you can do proper upgrades...imagine an INSAS build that has two-section receiver design, and lower receiver has STANAG pattern magazine well, plus ambidextrous bolt hold open/release, plus ambidextrous push-button type mag releases, and top receiver has rails that doesn't have any 'play' there so better accuracy than before, then you can even attempt at giving some new style of charging handle there, then you can directly put AR buttstock mount at rear side to directly house most modern buttstocks there...and yes aesthetics wise it will definitely better than typical INSAS
^overall a thorough, complete upgrade for INSAS, without much need for those FAB style things
 
I believe a simple improved 30 round Magazine should be supplied for existing INSAS’s will significantly improve their performance since a lot of their reliability issues stem from defective/poorly designed magazines. It won’t solve the Cosmetic, QC, Ergonomic and Finishing issues that have plagued the rifles due to the shoddy practices of the erstwhile OFB, but a decent short term measure. This can even be implemented by CAPFs and Police Forces too.
yes, agreed
it's also a thing that OFB//AWEIL is outsourcing most of "furniture" parts to various polymer manufacturers, you know that 'Nilkamal' furniture maker? i have seen one particular pic with it's markings on magazine of INSAS 🤷‍♂️
go to indiamart and search 'rifle magazine' something, you'll find such aftermarket OEM-ish manufacturers proudly showcasing entire catalogues of furnitures for INSAS, JVPC, SLR and all 🤷‍♂️ including magazines too

but again, very early prototypes of INSAS had metallic magazines, then our guys evaluated AUG and thought 'hey it would be nice to have such translucent magazine, you know' and got it done 🤷‍♂️...and yes early AUG mags too suffered some breaking issues, because sunlight would start it decomposing at some level
1740748974252.webp

you go to some history of notable firearms that did magazine altering
-> FN FNC = opted steel STANAG magazine, for reliability on that unique design, when FN M249//Minimi was made from that, they put a STANAG compatible mag-well on side for additional feeding option apart from usual belt-feeding, and when those american aluminium STANAG magazines were used there, it would 'chew them out'...so at some level belgians understood that despite sharing common design, aluminium pattern STANAG magazines aren't that ideal for their gun so they changed it to steel ones
-> 'SA80' L85 upgrades by H&K germans = now SA-80 originally is AR-18 design fork, AR-18 had its own custom magazine, but here them britshits put STANAG pattern magazine there; so when H&K krauts evaluated its operation under slow-mo camera they identified some teething issues, and their conclusion was it needs a little more curved design of magazine for proper feeding with 30-rounds stacking, and those magpul p-mag style magazines were adopted for it as it worked fine
^BUT H&K krauts didn't just stop there, when they made HKM4 = prototype HK416 thing by giving M4A1 design that short stroke gas piston system from their G36, they too opted for slightly more curved and all steel pattern magazine in later iterations that eventually became HK416, and now that is standard issue magazine from HK for those guns
it could be rumoured that perhaps origin for HK adopting steel pattern slightly more curved STANAG pattern magazines happened with H&K G41 = 5.56x45mm NATO version of G3; but i need to investigate more about it first

meanwhile, we got Galil, Stg940, SIG550, HK G41 and other 5.56x45mm rifles tested and evaluated here prior to INSAS, but we went ahead with proprietary design and made polymer version out of it...perhaps didn't work out that well 🤷‍♂️

perhaps those FAB israelis did what H&K germans did with L85A1 = put some INSAS under slow-mo camera and found out teething issues and made that custom-magazine for it in 5.56x45mm from their line of windowed polymer magazines for kalashnikovs, and we're issuing them now with upgrade kits on INSAS

either standardise that one here, or make a new design of polymer magazine locally that's made properly this time, preferably not OEMed by some home furniture makers this time 🤷‍♂️
baki toh...even naxal fucks know how to do jugadu solutions to broken INSAS mags
1740748267205.webp
 
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crudely manufactured, perhaps to increase output from factory

View attachment 26288

it's stamped sheet metal design like most AKMs and current gen AK-203, and yet they riveted the inner guide rails for bolt carrier, perhaps to speed up production or thinking it'll 'strengthen' the build...i mean look at MAG 58's receiver, that too has riveted inner guide rails for bolt carrier, BUT MAG 58 has a thick receiver comprised of side plates and trunnions that has to be riveted for that size of mass production...meanwhile INSAS' receiver plate is barely 1 to 1.5mm thick, typical to AK design, so drilling holes that nearby and riveting a rail PLUS a separate ejector blade (that's typically part of the rail itself, usually heat-treated to strengthen it) on its left side, on a relatively thinner build of receiver... 🤷‍♂️ doesn't seem like ideal thing to me...
as for all standard kalashnikovs of stamped sheet receiver design goes, they spot-weld carrier rails there, that much strength is sufficient and it looks elegant too (do note, aesthetics are everything)

View attachment 26291
notice how visibally thick side plates are here on MAG 58's receiver, those tiny inverted L shaped stripes at centre are bolt carrier rails there, affixed by some heavy riveting, overall entire receiver on MAG 58 is rivet-build, because it works there

i've read on certain youtube comment from some ex-serviceman who got issued INSAS, that riveted sheet metal parts sometimes come loose and also, quality of sheet metal used for receivers is also questionable something like 'pins falling out' (pins holding trigger group parts) ? it could happen if pins are 'digging open' those holes meant for housing trigger parts, as they rotate around that axes formed by pins, you know...hammer goes at least 60 degs, trigger around same degrees when fully pulled, and ~30 deg rotation for sear...so torques from those rotations around might be gradually digging out receiver holes that they eventually come loose and 'fall out'...this even happens to some extent on milled receiver designs of non-mil-spec types, reason many civilian AR-15s are given "anti-rotation pins" - an additional holder that firmly keeps pins in place so they don't dig open those holes

(next point, assuming it's 1mm thickness receiver, source is that infamous 'technical treatise' on INSAS at indians for guns phorum) usually some AKM and above modern Kalashnikov pattern rifles have these cross-embossing around pins holes, originally so same trigger parts can be used on milled and stamped receiver AKs by reducing some dimensional differences, but to some extent it provides some additional surface so those pins don't turn/rotate around that easily, but well INSAS most builds i've seen, do not...i'm not sure if they heat-treat those xy-embossed-holes for pins but yeah they eventually realised it's nice thing to do, we did not...if my memory serves right, only Kalantak 'Micro Assault Rifle' (predecessor design to ARDE's 5.56mm Carbine) was given xy-embossed-holes around pins on its receiver...but that remained a prototype level project at maximum 🤷‍♂️

View attachment 26300


now do note this is just one comment i'm talking about above, is perhaps only complaint i read like that so it could be coming from some really poorly made / abused INSAS, but for a military rifle it does have a crudely built receiver...such things should not be happening to start with...

finally, even if you keep 'upgrades' in mind, a receiver is a heart to a firearm's design, you want to bring some significant upgrades, you have to alter it at some point...and unfortunately kalashnikov design is such that to bring any major upgrades there, you have to alter its receiver, or made compromises around that design itself...
that's why we have those "adapters" that goes in standard akm receiver to even house a modern AR pattern buttstock there, because old era holder doesn't work with it, and it's mostly furniture upgrades that one can do on typical Kalashnikov pattern firearms, you can put any high quality railed top-guards that enables mounting of modern optics there, and it'll still have some 'play' there, affecting accuracy at longer distances...

but you replace that kalashnikov style receiver with something else, while keeping major internals same, you can do proper upgrades...imagine an INSAS build that has two-section receiver design, and lower receiver has STANAG pattern magazine well, plus ambidextrous bolt hold open/release, plus ambidextrous push-button type mag releases, and top receiver has rails that doesn't have any 'play' there so better accuracy than before, then you can even attempt at giving some new style of charging handle there, then you can directly put AR buttstock mount at rear side to directly house most modern buttstocks there...and yes aesthetics wise it will definitely better than typical INSAS
^overall a thorough, complete upgrade for INSAS, without much need for those FAB style things
That is a comprehensive explanation. So as you also noted that its mostly a QC issue and nothing that can’t be solved by a competent manufacturer and modern precision toolings, without changing the basic design. It may not be the best 5.56 LS AR in the market, but it will be much better than what we have right now ie INSAS/mk1c/Excalibur.
 
That is a comprehensive explanation. So as you also noted that its mostly a QC issue and nothing that can’t be solved by a competent manufacturer and modern precision toolings, without changing the basic design. It may not be the best 5.56 LS AR in the market, but it will be much better than what we have right now ie INSAS/mk1c/Excalibur.
Excalibur Mk1 and Mk1C, are serving in various paramilitary and NE side army units since years now, we don't hear about much issues on it either
perhaps @tomthounaojam87 sir can explain more about those rifles as he's experienced those oness as well as o g INSAS
so as a bare basic thing, Excaliburs are fine...it's this 1B series of INSAS the mainstay of our armed forces that needs some help...

baaki toh, look at very recently manufactured version of INSAS, in Excalibur line
1740749283253.webp
newer 30 rounder magazine, instead of semi-auto and 3-round burst mode like there on 1B INSAS, it has semi-auto and full-auto modes like most assault rifles, and top cover has a small section of picatiny rail there
^sure this one may require more upgrades but as a basic design it's worth having over 1B INSASes, of course if armed forces wish for it 🤷‍♂️
 

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