Women in Armed Forces

[Roshan]

Data interpretations aren't "off" when divergence is by a few factors ( ie, 2x,3x,4x etc). It's absolute. This is as asinine as saying India has higher rape per capita than the West and Indians just report less, when rape per capita in the west is 20x more than that of India.

As for chanakya, I don't blindly follow anyone. Even chanakya got a few things wrong and I can tell you what they are. Coz I have read him and analysed him.

The reason chanakya favoured women only guard for the royal guard of the most powerful empire of its time, is because he saw the 'Brianne of tarth and renly ' scenario: women of lower station treated exceptionally well by a man of high status tend to fall in love with them and you will always protect the ones u love better than the ones you don't.
He saw the main job of royal guard to not be sword saints but those who will keep an hawkish eye out for poisoning attempts or throw themselves in line of fire to protect their high value target.
So he saw women as better fit for this role and specifically instructs emperors to seek a female royal guard, pick them from the lower classes and shower them with love that they are effectively protecting their husband, not their leige.

Whether you agree or disagree with him, this is the rationale he presented.

Instead of fixating by what degree it's off the question is around the data's merit and it's real world applicability. If it isn't, then it doesn't matter if it's 100, it's uselessness is absolute. If i know for a fact that the chicks around me will break physically even before threatens to twist their arm then it doesn't matter what some bs study says about pain tolerance. Just as an eg.

He may have been right in this context but he also had his reasons when he said women are inherently deceitful and untrustworthy or whatever else he felt needed to be done for the sake of internal security. Now you can agree with one and disagree with the other or agree with both and say they are true in certain scenarios instead of being universal. We are free to acknowledge it without wholly accepting it.

 

[Nutcracker]

Muh whamen will win these buttons, guns and drone wars. Lmao, How many bytches are beating Dawgs in trap shooting ?? Whats the gender specific winning scores for trap shooting Olympics ? How many female pro gamers winning international eSports titles ?
Nada ..

 

[GaudaNaresh]

Guys instead of doing all this word celling can you guys stay on the topic?
Topic went from women in combat to naari shokti, higgs boson and philosophy.

It's not that deep.

I think the argument is better served by what @Anants said and exploring what social gains we get from making women feel like part of the national defence solution than be the ones defended and in this we should study social effects of women in military of israel - Israel doesn't draft women coz they are underhanded- if they were underhanded, they would remove military exemption for ultra orthodox kibbutzim Jews who make up roughly 15% of Israeli male population.

I myself interact a lot with Israelis since....Well I spent a year in israel as masters exchange student and have kept friends there. All I can say, is I wish I had a mother who served in military and I would've avoided 10 years of feeling in the dark on woke virus and Vasudeva kutumbakam nonsense.

 

[GaudaNaresh]

Muh whamen will win these buttons, guns and drone wars. Lmao, How many bytches are beating Dawgs in trap shooting ?? Whats the gender specific winning scores for trap shooting Olympics ? How many female pro gamers winning international eSports titles ?
Nada ..

As a gun owner, this is what I know- women do just as good if not better than men with rifles. They do a bit worse in shotgun shooting and are faaaar worse with the handgun. Dunno about assault rifles- they are banned here so we don't get to see how well someone uses it or not.

As for esports- it's like asking how many medals has India won in ice hockey. Women are like 1% of video game community so they'd have to be literally far superior to men like arachnid females to outshine us in a field we make up 99% of participants.

 

[Nutcracker]

As a gun owner, this is what I know- women do just as good if not better than men with rifles. They do a bit worse in shotgun shooting and are faaaar worse with the handgun.
As for esports- it's like asking how many medals has India won in ice hockey. Women are like 1% of video game community so they'd have to be literally far superior to men like arachnid females to outshine us in a field we make up 99% of participants.

How bout air pistol? Does that also give recoil to fragile komal kali? Compare score of that ples.

 

[Roshan]

You are yet again talking out of your ass.
Men play virtually zero role in child raising in toddler stage or baby stage and all your structure and male parenting comes into play at age 7+ or so, when the most stressful job of raising a child is done.
Stress management is like any other scenario- you get better at something by routine and consistent exposure and women are routinely exposed to consistent amount of stress in child raising at this most demanding stage than men by a huge margin.

And yes, those who are exposed to more stress and handle one stressful scenario are better at handing other stressful scenarios. Because as I said, stress management is about making optimal choices in a stressed state of mind- where your cortisol levels are through the roof.
This is why women also make far better decisions when sleep deprived than men- because sleep deprivation is extremely stressful on the body and women handle stress better.
You are not going to impress a math guy with overwhelming data on topic with standard anecdotal crap, sorry.

HR process is rigid?! Lmao. Wtf. HR is the most 'play fast and loose and just resolve conflict by any means necessary' sector of corporate world. Because it's a field BASED on negotiations.
Once you work corporate you will realize this.

Your " We all know this without useless study" shows that your views aren't data driven. Mine are. Data is god to mathematicians is perhaps why I don't play fast and loose with feelings and anecdotes like you do.

I'm not you are by making dishonest exaggerations, lol. Theres literally an extended network of relatives for the most part to help during that stage of a child's growth and this lack of sleep affects the man too btw who has to go out and still earn his wage.
Women are exposed to child raising stress which is far from the most stressful job out there. You don't have any data to prove this though simple rudimentary reasoning can bust this quite easily. The other more stressful jobs which one is subjected to must make them even more stress resistant, not to mention having the biological neurochemical tools to better deal with it which was the original point. Being able to deal with one does NOT mean you are equipped to deal with every stressful situation out there, to say so is dishonest bull and is based on a lot of fanciful assumptions.

HR is literally a bunch of elaborate processes that have been dumbed down for adults like school kids to follow with myriad guidelines on what to do in case an incident happens at the workpalce. That's literally all there is to it. There's a whole history around it and how HR depts was where wokeism was incubated in USA.

My data is based on real world observations which even a simpleton can grasp, your mathematical data is just mostly befuddling ideological slop which you like to think is cold hard data because your Msc degree didn't teach you any discernment other than going 'muh data' even if the data itself doesn't attest to what you think it says and by itself is supposed to clinch every argument out there. not the way it works. You throw in anecdotes, feels and exaggerations of your own while you're at it and talk like someone who never touches grass but can only project like women do when they lose arguments and accuse the one pointing it out to you of it.
If data was god to you and you actually knew how to interpret it you wouldn't be masturbating to all these 'studies' which don't say what you think they do. It circles back to my original point about modern high priests and useless degrees with midwits who don't know how to use it so are forced to rely on these cheap gotchas.

 

[GaudaNaresh]

How bout air pistol? Does that also give recoil to fragile komal kali? Compare score of that ples.

Air pistol falls under handgun. Nothing gives more recoil than a bolt action rifle for the same calibre bullet, unless you have a silencer on. Which I dunno how it impacts everything because again, here, silencers are illegal commodity and you get your guns confiscated if you even put in a digital order for a silencer.

 

[GaudaNaresh]

I'm not you are by making dishonest exaggerations, lol. Theres literally an extended network of relatives for the most part to help during that stage of a child's growth and this lack of sleep affects the man too btw who has to go out and still earn his wage.
Women are exposed to child raising stress which is far from the most stressful job out there. You don't have any data to prove this though simple rudimentary reasoning can bust this quite easily. The other more stressful jobs which one is subjected to must make them even more stress resistant, not to mention having the biological neurochemical tools to better deal with it which was the original point. Being able to deal with one does NOT mean you are equipped to deal with every stressful situation out there, to say so is dishonest bull and is based on a lot of fanciful assumptions.

My data is based on real world observations which even a simpleton can grasp, your mathematical data is just mostly befuddling ideological slop which you like to think is cold hard data because your Msc degree didn't teach you any discernment other than going 'muh data' even if the data itself doesn't attest to what you think it says and by itself is supposed to clinch every argument out there. not the way it works. You throw in anecdotes, feels and exaggerations of your own while you're at it and talk like someone who never touches grass but can only project like women do when they lose arguments and accuse the one pointing it out to you of it.
If data was god to you and you actually knew how to interpret it you wouldn't be masturbating to all these 'studies' which don't say what you think they do. It circles back to my original point about modern high priests and useless degrees with midwits who don't know how to use it so are forced to rely on these cheap gotchas.

Real world observations isn't data. That's anecdote.
This conversation has zero meaning if you can't even tell data from anecdote.
You don't have data. You have anecdote. Which any science grad pisses on.
And ofcourse you think you know better than a math masters on how valid a data set is.

And yes being better at handling stress means you are better at handling stress. Regardless of what the stressful scenario is, because handling stress better is dependent on making more optimal choices under high cortisol levels. Duh.
The one who tolerates pain better does so regardless of whether it's pain from a hammer or a knife. As I said, your position is simply driven by your feelings.
I use anecdote to make data relatable. If you wish I can instead talk of median value and p-values.
Whereas you use anecdote as replacement of data. Which any science Grad will laugh at as nonsense.

And lastly, apni aukaad me raho. If you wish to challenge me on my understanding of data, i Will make a thread on it and challenge you to data analysis. Are you game for that or are you going to peddle your western trash mindset of challenging experts on topic you are a fool in ? Your call.

 

[Roshan]

Guys instead of doing all this word celling can you guys stay on the topic?
Topic went from women in combat to naari shokti, higgs boson and philosophy.

It's not that deep.

It started with some chomu troll in the Sindoor thread saying Indian men are weak and so women should be included. These posts were moved from there to here.

 

[Suryavanshi]

I think the argument is better served by what @Anants said and exploring what social gains we get from making women feel like part of the national defence solution than be the ones defended and in this we should study social effects of women in military of israel - Israel doesn't draft women coz they are underhanded- if they were underhanded, they would remove military exemption for ultra orthodox kibbutzim Jews who make up roughly 15% of Israeli male population.

I myself interact a lot with Israelis since....Well I spent a year in israel as masters exchange student and have kept friends there. All I can say, is I wish I had a mother who served in military and I would've avoided 10 years of feeling in the dark on woke virus and Vasudeva kutumbakam nonsense.

leave that lets talk about this

"Should Physical standards be lowered for women in the armed forces?"

If yes than why?
What operational benefits do armed forces get by inducting female in their ranks?
Do the supposed advantage gained by including female offset's the compromise made in physical stats?

 

[Roshan]

Real world observations isn't data. That's anecdote.
This conversation has zero meaning if you can't even tell data from anecdote.
You don't have data. You have anecdote. Which any science grad pisses on.
And ofcourse you think you know better than a math masters on how valid a data set is.

And yes being better at handling stress means you are better at handling stress. Regardless of what the stressful scenario is, because handling stress better is dependent on making more optimal choices under high cortisol levels. Duh.
The one who tolerates pain better does so regardless of whether it's pain from a hammer or a knife. As I said, your position is simply driven by your feelings.
I use anecdote to make data relatable. If you wish I can instead talk of median value and p-values.
Whereas you use anecdote as replacement of data. Which any science Grad will laugh at as nonsense.

Scientific process involves data as well as observations, the data by itself is inert and has no meaning unless it represents something tangible which would make worshipping data as sacrosanct itself retarded.
By anecdote I mean more something personal from their lives which one uses to reinforce a point, not something generalized which we know to be more or less true even if it need not be universal.
Your stress responses are not the same for all situations ergo the stress also is not the same, if you had an objective standard that was fit for the task - which you don't in this case - that would better illustrate it. Your yardstick for tolerating pain/stress better is being able to raise/give birth a child, not the duress of potentially being impaled by a hammer or stabbed by a knife or tortured. Unless your data can accuratel reflect this it is useless for the purposes of this discussion and doesn't in anyway make that point.
Your data uber alles position is one that is exclusively based on feelings, not sound reasoning or deduction or common sense.

 

[GaudaNaresh]

leave that lets talk about this

"Should Physical standards be lowered for women in the armed forces?"

If yes than why?
What operational benefits do armed forces get by inducting female in their ranks?
Do the supposed advantage gained by including female offset's the compromise made in physical stats?

Physical standards should not be lowered for NCOs and NCPs in any branch.
For physical standards of navy and air force- those standards are less absolute and comprehensive. So no for army, yes for air force and navy at officer level. Just like israel.

And why leave out the most important social angle and security benefit of women in armed forces- how it impacts future generation ??

Like I literally care mostly about making rani of jhansi mentality amongst our mothers coz they all know that ONE rani of jhansi amongst their 20 friends who served.
I see it as ' put in 1% in military, even if leads to competence loss to get 25% more patriots of next generation' like israel.

 

[GaudaNaresh]

Scientific process involves data as well as observations, the data by itself is inert and has no meaning unless it represents something tangible which would make worshipping data as sacrosanct itself retarded.
By anecdote I mean more something personal from their lives which one uses to reinforce a point, not something generalized which we know to be more or less true even if it need not be universal.
Your stress responses are not the same for all situations ergo the stress also is not the same, if you had an objective standard that was fit for the task - which you don't in this case - that would better illustrate it. Your yardstick for tolerating pain/stress better is being able to raise/give birth a child, not the duress of potentially being impaled by a hammer or stabbed by a knife or tortured. Unless your data can accuratel reflect this it is useless for the purposes of this discussion and doesn't in anyway make that point.
Your data uber alles position is one that is exclusively based on feelings, not sound reasoning or deduction or common sense.

People with higher stress tolerance perform higher in virtually ALL scenarios of stress testing.
This is a basic fact you'd know if you actually were educated on the topic and not peddling standard western incel logic.

My yardstick for pain tolerance are actual pain tests. Not incel bullshit of giving birth.
FYI women show 150% better pain tolerance when their fingers are stabbed than men do. And the specific test is putting needles under your finger-nail and twisting it. Go Try putting a sui under your nail to see how excruciating that is.

If u wish I can try digging up the study next week when I have access to my old laptop.

And if you question a mathematician on what 150% divergence implies in absolute-Ness of conclusion, I will go full Indian uncle on you and do chappal-baazi on you. Lol.

 

[GaudaNaresh]

Btw a historical example of how valuable warrior mentality in women actually is:

Islam only exists as a global religion, due to aurat-e-momeen more than mard-e-momeen.
You see even during Mohammads time, arabs were psychologically scarred from continously being dominated by Romans and Iranians.
So when they fought the battle of yarmouk, they lost the first day and retreated to their camp, which happened to have a lot of women in them as they basically merged a hajj group with army group.
When the women saw the retreating men, they called them hijra, picked up the swords and started to charge in, which embarrassed the shit out of undefeatable general Khalid ibn Walid and the men re-formed and came back with suicide bomber zeal.

Israeli women are that way today and they got the result by putting women in military while dehati arabs got the result by having Islamic fanatic women of generation 1 Muslims.
So question is, which methodology do we want in modern world India.
Because the advantage of having rani of jhansi mentality amongst women is huge.

 

[redpanda]

Childcare is THE most stressful job in existence. You will realize this when you have a baby and your whole life will be made to change, including sleep schedule, due to that annoying overdemanding tiny Human.

In fact this is why women are such peace-makers and have far more patience than any other female of any other species: If it wasn't for human females capacity to tolerate stress, they'd bash in the head of the baby in Six months flat. This is also why females of other species show far less patience with their kids- they haven't evolved to care for such incompetent tiny ones like we have.

Being more prone to meltdown etc doesn't negate the fact that women score about 2x-3x higher than men in stress management tests. As I said, data is absolute on this.

Women also negotiate far better than men. This is a proven axiom in diplomacy and corporate world, this is literally why 99% of human resource bigwigs are women- their better handling of stress and hierarchies makes them far better conflict resolution people than men.
Duh.

You have read data set about PTSD from war men vis a vis women? Women are more likely to develop PTSD and other kind of mental illness than men if you read various research papers. Neurology is more complicated than you think. And pain & stress tolerance varies depending on the situation. Not all kind of stress and pain are the same. Military service has a whole different kind of stress.

women score about 2x-3x higher than men in stress management tests. As I said, data is absolute on this.

This is a very wrong way to look at it, Neuroloscience isn't mathematics my friend. You are constantly touting your mathematics degree to spout bs about a domain that is much more different than yours. What kind of stress? How do you define the stress in this particular scenario? What is the neurological response? What is the preferred approach?

 

[GaudaNaresh]

You have read data set about PTSD from war men vis a vis women? Women are more likely to develop PTSD and other kind of mental illness than men if you read various research papers. Neurology is more complicated than you think. And pain & stress tolerance varies depending on the situation. Not all kind of stress and pain are the same. Military service has a whole different kind of stress.

Ofcourse. But ptsd is not operational concern: 95% of ptsd cases develop and magnify post discharge. I do know how complex and unknown neurology is, is why I restricted myself to very specific claims that are completely backed by data.
As I said, data shows otherwise- people with higher stress tolerance score higher across the board in virtually all stress relates scenarios.
Because as I said l, stress management is all about making correct decisions when you are in an active state of stress- be it from pain, sleep deprivation, emotional loss or whatever.
It's, in scientific terms, your sensitivity to cortisol. Less sensitive you are, more likely you are to handle stress.

 

[redpanda]

Ofcourse. But ptsd is not operational concern: 95% of ptsd cases develop and magnify post discharge. I do know how complex and unknown neurology is, is why I restricted myself to very specific claims that are completely backed by data.
As I said, data shows otherwise- people with higher stress tolerance score higher across the board in virtually all stress relates scenarios.
Because as I said l, stress management is all about making correct decisions when you are in an active state of stress- be it from pain, sleep deprivation, emotional loss or whatever.
It's, in scientific terms, your sensitivity to cortisol. Less sensitive you are, more likely you are to handle stress.

Yes but I have never read any paper than claims women have 2-3x higher stress management capabilities. That seems a bit too much exaggerated. Most papers i have read point out difference in approach. Women are slightly more tolerant to certain kind of stress that's it.

I never like to tout my qualifications. However I would be a physicist by degree, and I'm aware about how data works, how scientific process works and how certain to make assertions out of certain data points. So I'm very skeptical of some of these claims.

 

[GaudaNaresh]

Yes but I have never read any paper than claims women have 2-3x higher stress management capabilities. That seems a bit too much exaggerated. Most papers i have read point out difference in approach. Women are slightly more tolerant to certain kind of stress that's it.

Because these papers aren't written by math dudes. We only care for Data analytics....what is your data validity set, what is median value, etc.
Same reason why you don't find rape articles that say Sweden has 6x the rape per capita of usa or usa has 15x the rape per capita of India.
Because these articles are not written by us boring math grads or even science grads but arts noobs.

 

[redpanda]

Because these papers aren't written by math dudes. We only care for Data analytics....what is your data validity set, what is median value, etc.
Same reason why you don't find rape articles that say Sweden has 6x the rape per capita of usa or usa has 15x the rape per capita of India.
Because these articles are not written by us boring math grads or even science grads but arts noobs.

Dude those papers are written by Neurologists. They aren't art grads.

 

[GaudaNaresh]

Dude those papers are written by Neurologists. They aren't art grads.

No actually they are mostly written by psychologists as this is mostly researched under behavioural psychology.
Most of their degrees end with an A: BA, MA, etc.