Operation Sindoor and Aftermath (38 Viewers)

[ezsasa]

Then let's just say he was ahead of his time & not exactly a diplomat in his choice of words. I mean if you've seen that podcast , how many people will go before a live audience to ask for annihilating Paxtan with proper justifications where such calls for our annihilation aren't unusual at all among a similar class of people as you saw represented by this audience.

And this has been going on for decades ever since Paxtan got the N bomb . So how come our elites are totally clueless or have an extremely thick skin or take whatever their counterparts in Paxtan think & say out aloud with great tolerance along with buckets of salt.

I actually remember seeing a program broadcast on NDTV featuring the late Vinod Mehta & a Paxtani analyst & ex army man whom he acknowledged as his friend in the prevailing celebratory atmosphere of ABV's Lahore Bus Journey where that man actually went on record to say that even if Kashmir was solved the policy of bleeding India with a 1000 cuts must continue , with an embarrassed Mehta trying to shush him with a sheepish laugh & something to the effect in Punjabi - aisa nahin kehte before the program came to an hasty end .

I'd like to know an equivalent to this tamasha which is an extension of the same thought process I've laid out in my previous post in any other corner of the world.

cold war between USSR and USA would have some of these hallmarks. on one hand they were killing each other in third countries, on the other hand peaceniks were promoting games and cultural exchanges between the two.

 

[RoaringTigerHiddenDragon]

Then why do india government keep buy this garbage jet and if it’s not able to fly as per own need. And that too at sky rocket prices.

And why some people keep asking for Rafale for IAF ? Are these traitors or paki. This forum seems to be full of them.

The price includes weapons like Meteor, HAMMER, SCALP etc and lifetime maintenance. France denied these weapons to Egypt.No one other than Russians would give us source code.

 

[Azaad]

cold war between USSR and USA would have some of these hallmarks. on one hand they were killing each other in third countries, on the other hand peaceniks were promoting games and cultural exchanges between the two.

Killing each other indirectly in third countries thru proxies & initiating terrorist activities repeatedly over several decades causing deaths in the hundreds of thousands apart from fighting 4 wars & several skirmishes are 2 different phenomena.

Moreover the Americans or significant sections of their Deep State have a pathological hatred for the Russians as Jaishankar himself recounted in public at the onset of the war in Ukraine.

Contrast that to the behaviour of our MEA babooos . This is the reason I wrote some time back that all Punjabis ought to be banned from the Paxtan desk of the MEA & Mallus from the Chinese desk. That'd go some way in clearing up the detritus we've accumulated over the decades in those moth eaten establishment.

P.S I was looking for the video of the book launch of Ambassador Satinder Lamba around 2 years ago by his widow which featured the who's who of our ex Ambassadors to Paxtan including G Parthasarathy , SS Menon Raghavan among others but couldn't locate it online . Am guessing it was taken down or the channel doesn't exist anymore.

You should've listened to their views. I was sick in my stomach. @indrajit is aware of this video . Remember reading his comments on it on DFI.

 

[Corvus Splendens]

The price includes weapons like Meteor, HAMMER, SCALP etc and lifetime maintenance. France denied these weapons to Egypt.No one other than Russians would give us source code.

I say the Su-57 should be considered. Not as a 5th gen, but an augment/replacement for the Su-30. Will include a re-engine opportunity for the Su-30 upgrade. And the Su-57 itself has great payload capacity internally plus pylons. I don't know what stage of development Virupaksha is in, but it would be the radar of choice. Russkies are quite strapped for cash, and they are going to agree on more indigenisation agreements (from raw materials to onboard systems, avionics, etc.). If the French aren't amicable to the integration of Indian weapons on our terms, the total fleet of Rafales in the IAF should be limited to 5 squadrons.​

 

[Nicky]

The price includes weapons like Meteor, HAMMER, SCALP etc and lifetime maintenance. France denied these weapons to Egypt.No one other than Russians would give us source code.

No one will give you source code and to expect them to is foolish. Best they will allow and aid in integrations of other weapons like Russia does.

Would we give give for Tejas to any countries we export to?

We need to pump in big money and effort into AMCA. The stop gap can only be Su57. This should be the last jets we buy from elsewhere.

 

[Blood+]

Some read interesting (and surprisingly on point) discussions coming out of Pakistan, might wanna check it out, guys.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzrflQPLH_E
and

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-PQQTXrZyU&t=236s

 

[Corvus Splendens]

View: https://x.com/MeghUpdates/status/1931191065089917395

 

[snakeeyes07]

If there's one eminent weapon system among many that punctured whole paxtan nd mogged PAF face to the dirt is brahmos.

There's no remedy to it.. no antidote.. nd no J35 or HQ-19 gonna save the day for PAF once IAF starts firing brahmos at their airbases.

Quwa guy which is the one of the few sanest of the paxtani defence nerds among loudmouth nd delusional paxtani masses discusses the threat of brahmos with rational.


View: https://youtu.be/r-PQQTXrZyU

Re Pakistan navy front, I don't think 12 CAMM-ER per frigate will make that much of a difference. They will have to launch 2-3 missiles for each to increase kill probability. That means even granting them the best case scenario, only 4-6 could be defended by each frigate. One hit onto these frigates would be a total kill.

Indian navy surface fleet ships carry 8 and 16 each. Given our geography, in near future we should be able to place ER version and LRASHM coastal batteries around Bhuj interlined into INS network to target PNS ships in their EEZ all the way till Gwadar. This will save on INS ships as they are harder to replenish during war time.

Also, if they switch to a submarine heavy force then given their geography they are good candidate for SOSUS type sensor wall to be created, just like NATO did in GIUK gap during cold war. GIUK was more than 3x length than a possible SOSUS network against Pakistan. SMART missile off the coast could be an option in the kill chain too.

Re their defense option against , they might increase their interception rate but a sophisticated employment strategy by India can make sure that the balance would still be heavily in our favor. We can have time on target based attacks employing waves of loitering munition & older stocks of coming in first then more lethal newer ones coming behind them. Given Pakistan economy, I think each of their potential sites will run out of interceptors after 2-3 such TOT attacks.

 

[Drwho]

I say the Su-57 should be considered. Not as a 5th gen, but an augment/replacement for the Su-30. Will include a re-engine opportunity for the Su-30 upgrade. And the Su-57 itself has great payload capacity internally plus pylons. I don't know what stage of development Virupaksha is in, but it would be the radar of choice. Russkies are quite strapped for cash, and they are going to agree on more indigenisation agreements (from raw materials to onboard systems, avionics, etc.). If the French aren't amicable to the integration of Indian weapons on our terms, the total fleet of Rafales in the IAF should be limited to 5 squadrons.​

I say what ever we have of Rafale is enough. Why get more of this liability? If we can’t integrate our own missile and equipment there is no point. Also in future when it will need upgrade it’s going to be problem of cost. Euro will rise and expenses will escalate as well. We can’t even fit our brahmos or ng on it. Can’t fit our a2a which are good and going to be awesome in future.

Let it be showcase jet. But political issue will create a tougher issue for running away from this expensive piece of jet.

For china side we need Russian su57 and we can develop it to be 5th gen. It’s going to be better than chini maal. With Russian Indian Israel “, private party involvements. It is going to be 5 gen fighter. Amca is on paper let it grow separately forget about it. If happens great or else it’s ok.

We are late but we are going to be in worst possible situation in future.

 

[Ajayant Tripathi]

Link-16 in NATO gives AEW&Cs that ability to guide BVRs, shooter FCR is not required. Chinese do have their own datalink and similar capability now. I don't think we have this ability yet, maybe in future we will with wider adoption of ASTRA and IAF BNET based datalink.

https://www.kyivpost.com/post/49570

Go through this thread:

View: https://x.com/sakthivel_cit93/status/1930894196803875206

Poster takes you through whole scene sequentially.

 

[Decahex]

No one will give you source code and to expect them to is foolish. Best they will allow and aid in integrations of other weapons like Russia does.

Would we give give for Tejas to any countries we export to?

We need to pump in big money and effort into AMCA. The stop gap can only be Su57. This should be the last jets we buy from elsewhere.

The Su-57 would've been an effective stop gap if we had them in our possession right NOW. If we want to procure it now, it will take 1-2 years to negotiate and then 3-4 years for it to get inducted, given the sanctions on Russia and their usual track record of delivering much more late than agreed upon, the first Su-57 won't be inducted until 2032-2033. At that point, Su-57 won't be a stop gap but rather a peer aircraft of AMCA which will start production from 2035.

Unlike the previous times, I'm confident with AMCA's timeline because we already have experience from Tejas and the engine deal for GE 414 is already being negotiated well in advance for not just AMCA but also Tejas Mk2 which means there would be an up and working supply chain and assembly lines. In the past, quite a huge chunk of our delays were with regards to this.

 

[chnvipgz]

View: https://youtu.be/Arb-PKN4ErE?si=o-Wa3s5ovqdGCOVx

Extremely animated & explosive podcast hosted by Shoma Chaudhury featuring ex Ambassador TCA Raghavan & Bharat Karnad.

What struck me most about this podcast was not the diametrically opposite positions both the guests took , which was mostly on expected lines but the way the hollowness of Raghavan's & by extension the foreign establishment's outdated position comes across quite clearly pitched as it is against Karnad's brutally honest if ambitious pragmatism.

To all the Millenials & Gen Z guys here the former's position is what guided not only our foreign policy but also our world view for the most part of our ~ 80 years journey including during ABV's tenure & the initial part of present incumbent's term . Some out here would argue it still does.

More to the point it was the accepted norm whereas Karnad's position was always greeted by sneers , charges of adventurism & hawkishness besides being the target of ridicule in the past . I'm glad to report that what he suggests now or even suggested earlier ( in that manner he's been remarkably consistent ) is no longer viewed as outlandish or impossible at least by this generation .

Raghavan's frustration was evident given the many contradictions in his position was exposed ( he's actually admitted there's little we can do about Paxtan which is another way of saying let's move on after 26/11 & focus on the economy . At another point he says the abrogation of the IWT is good coz it sends a message even if we can't do much on the ground to change the situation given our geographical disadvantages & so on ) & which used to be unquestioned earlier including in this podcast where he got away lightly .

Tells one a great deal about how & why the Congress completely lost the plot in the 10 years they were in power on a lot of issues especially Paxtan .

Must watch episode IMO !

Wasnt this shoma chaudhry a soros agent behind tehelka scam and rescue of r*pist tarun tejpal.Both raghavan and kannad are soros scammers palacating both lw and rw ends while bharat kannad praising pakistanis with a fake news that pl15e shot down indian rafale like that of susu swamy.

 

[Azaad]

Wasnt this shoma chaudhry a soros agent behind tehelka scam and rescue of r*pist tarun tejpal.

No Idea about the Soros connection but she was the editor of Tehelka when Tejpal was arrested .

She spent most of her time defending him to the media perhaps apprehensive her career as an editor was going down the drain.

Shortly after that episode the rag shut shop & Choudhary disappeared or at least I didn't come across her in the media I consume till sometime last year on YT , where apparently she was handling a foundation set up by Shiv Nadar focusing on current affairs .

Nice hustle she's got herself. Set for the rest of her life.

 

[snakeeyes07]

Go through this thread:

View: https://x.com/sakthivel_cit93/status/1930894196803875206

Poster takes you through whole scene sequentially.

Can you share some other reputable source? No references in that thread just talk.

Is the European Meteor Air-To-Air Missile Really the Best in the World?

Some would say the best arrow is the one still left in your quiver.

www.twz.com

The Meteor will be able to get those crucial mid-course guidance updates not just from the jet that fired it, but from “third party” sources as well. These can include other fighters, airborne early warning and control (AEW&C) aircraft, and land and sea-based radar and electronic surveillance systems that provide their own “sensor pictures” to the missile-firing aircraft via data-link. With many assets contributing to a common tactical network “picture” via common data-link waveform and language it provides information that anyone, including the Meteor-armed fighter and the Meteor itself, can exploit.

 

[chnvipgz]

No Idea about the Soros connection but she was the editor of Tehelka when Tejpal was arrested .

She spent most of her time defending him to the media perhaps apprehensive her career as an editor was going down the drain.

Shortly after that episode the rag shut shop & Choudhary disappeared or at least I didn't come across her in the media I consume till sometime last year on YT , where apparently she was handling a foundation set up by Shiv Nadar focusing on current affairs .

Nice hustle she's got herself. Set for the rest of her life.

She is highly hinduphobic and all her articles praised naxalities and their murderous campaigns in bastar during the heights of red wave in east India.
Currently she is enacting her fake version of being neutral which consistently insulting indian armed forces.

 

[Nicky]

The Su-57 would've been an effective stop gap if we had them in our possession right NOW. If we want to procure it now, it will take 1-2 years to negotiate and then 3-4 years for it to get inducted, given the sanctions on Russia and their usual track record of delivering much more late than agreed upon, the first Su-57 won't be inducted until 2032-2033. At that point, Su-57 won't be a stop gap but rather a peer aircraft of AMCA which will start production from 2035.

Unlike the previous times, I'm confident with AMCA's timeline because we already have experience from Tejas and the engine deal for GE 414 is already being negotiated well in advance for not just AMCA but also Tejas Mk2 which means there would be an up and working supply chain and assembly lines. In the past, quite a huge chunk of our delays were with regards to this.

Earliest you can get Su57 is 2030. Earliest you can get AMCA is 2035. That's still a 5 year gap.

If Pappu gets anywhere near power, forget AMCA for a decade.

As for GE engine, highly unreliable delivery which can be squeezed anytime by the US. We need non-US engines.

Given the situation we face, we have to be ruthlessly practical. I'd love for AMCA to be a reality by early 2030s. That's not going to happen.

 

[akk]

Earliest you can get Su57 is 2030. Earliest you can get AMCA is 2035. That's still a 5 year gap.

If Pappu gets anywhere near power, forget AMCA for a decade.

As for GE engine, highly unreliable delivery which can be squeezed anytime by the US. We need non-US engines.

Given the situation we face, we have to be ruthlessly practical. I'd love for AMCA to be a reality by early 2030s. That's not going to happen.

Going by HAL record, a promise of delivery 10 years later, can easily convert into 20 years. On the other hand, if we negotiate quicker deal with russia with flyaway couple of squadrons and a few more in india.....

 

[concard]

Earliest you can get Su57 is 2030. Earliest you can get AMCA is 2035. That's still a 5 year gap.

If Pappu gets anywhere near power, forget AMCA for a decade.

As for GE engine, highly unreliable delivery which can be squeezed anytime by the US. We need non-US engines.

Given the situation we face, we have to be ruthlessly practical. I'd love for AMCA to be a reality by early 2030s. That's not going to happen.

"Earliest you can get Su57 is 2030."

Really? Did the Russians tell you this? Is the production line of Su-57 still active? Does it look like it is active given only handful number of Su-57s operated by Russian air force? Let's assume you start negotiations right now as I am writing this comment. Best case scenario, you finish negotiations within 1 year that is June 2026. Now Russia is still in the midst of war and I don't see that changing within 1 year. But let's assume only best case scenarios here. Let's assume Russia ends Ukraine war right now and fully withdraws to it's old borders.

Given the amount of military resources they have lost will they prioritize starting Su-57 production line? They still haven't delivered 2 squadrons of S400 and the agreement was inked when late Manohar Parrikar was still alive as a defense minister. That's almost a decade ago. Expecting Russians to start production line as soon as you ink an agreement at this point in time is naivety. Also do remember we inked a deal in 2020 after Galwan clashes for 12 Su-30MKIs to be delivered. It has still not been delivered. Now these timelines are one thing. Let's assume everything goes well and first Su-57 will be delivered in 2030. Give or take even your best pilots will take 2 years minimum to master the machine. That is 2032.

But the most damning thing is, all that electronics which goes into Su-57 will come from China. Russians are importing all the electronics from China including the ones which will be used in military applications. Open a Russian drone and see where those chips inside are made if you don't believe me.

I am not even going into how terrible Su-57 is as a 5th generation fighter. And you are expecting Su-57 to be inducted into IAF? Come out of your bubble, 5th generation fighter does not mean having a stealthy airframe and lower RCS. It is more than that. Just read what F-22 can do before having fantasies of getting Su-57 which will never happen.

 

[Nicky]

"Earliest you can get Su57 is 2030."

Really? Did the Russians tell you this? Is the production line of Su-57 still active? Does it look like it is active given only handful number of Su-57s operated by Russian air force? Let's assume you start negotiations right now as I am writing this comment. Best case scenario, you finish negotiations within 1 year that is June 2026. Now Russia is still in the midst of war and I don't see that changing within 1 year. But let's assume only best case scenarios here. Let's assume Russia ends Ukraine war right now and fully withdraws to it's old borders.

Given the amount of military resources they have lost will they prioritize starting Su-57 production line? They still haven't delivered 2 squadrons of S400 and the agreement was inked when late Manohar Parrikar was still alive as a defense minister. That's almost a decade ago. Expecting Russians to start production line as soon as you ink an agreement at this point in time is naivety. Also do remember we inked a deal in 2020 after Galwan clashes for 12 Su-30MKIs to be delivered. It has still not been delivered. Now these timelines are one thing. Let's assume everything goes well and first Su-57 will be delivered in 2030. Give or take even your best pilots will take 2 years minimum to master the machine. That is 2032.

But the most damning thing is, all that electronics which goes into Su-57 will come from China. Russians are importing all the electronics from China including the ones which will be used in military applications. Open a Russian drone and see where those chips inside are made if you don't believe me.

I am not even going into how terrible Su-57 is as a 5th generation fighter. And you are expecting Su-57 to be inducted into IAF? Come out of your bubble, 5th generation fighter does not mean having a stealthy airframe and lower RCS. It is more than that. Just read what F-22 can do before having fantasies of getting Su-57 which will never happen.

I'll go in reverse. As bad as Su57 might be, as long as it can handle so called Chini 5th gen, it would do its job.

Chini equipment is in US and western material as well. There's no escaping that.

Delivery timelines delay is something you have to live with. You are talking as if HAL doesn't delay.

What's the realistic AMCA timeline? What happens if the government changes?

 

[Guynxdor]

View: https://x.com/gen_rajshukla/status/1931014520773677547?s=46&t=s5Zjz3wgeVF4a5zNfD4EYA