Indian Navy Developments & Discussions (14 Viewers)

[shade2]

View: https://x.com/AdithyaKM_/status/1940236786116305352



PLAN operates/orders very large number of ships of a particular class to bring down time and costs of producing them. Also, I might be wrong, they don't equip their ships with much offensive capabilities at least in the anti-ship domain, similar to what I've noticed with US Navy as well. Both operate subsonic 200km AShM. Primary anti-ship role is supposed to be fulfilled by fighter jets onboard the Aircraft Carriers. While we arm our surface fleet with much expensive BrahMos missiles for anti-ship role. While our own fighter jet fleet has limited anti-ship capability, might change with NASM-MR integration with MiG-29K. So this saves costs for them when it comes to arming their surface combatants. Also, when it comes to ship building, nobody is close to China, they will enjoy lower costs and higher rates of production. Which is why IN should be ordering large number of same class of ships to shrink timelines and costs. Also, we should stop putting BrahMos into every ship, and go for our own NASM-MR in them and make for example a dozen Frigates of 5000 tonne displacement armed with NASM-MR and VL-SRSAM.

Legacy of Soviet doctrine saar.
Soviets had the biggest and longest ranged supersonic ASHMs on their old ships, so big that they had to be put in slant cannisters on all but the largest ships.





This was to counter free & democratic aircraft carriers and their ships.
Another Soviet method to counter the above was submarine-maxxxing.

After collapse of USSR, Chong copied the Western carrier-focused doctrine model which is why they have subsonic ssm mostly.
You can also see this with their surface combatants being top tier but their submarine fleet seemingly neglected in comparison to the peak Soviet submarine fleet.

imo we are slowly transitioning into carrier focused doctrine also but the brahmos type supersonic ssm will still have it's place

 

[randombully]

After collapse of USSR, Chong copied the Western carrier-focused doctrine model which is why they have subsonic ssm mostly.
You can also see this with their surface combatants being top tier but their submarine fleet seemingly neglected in comparison to the peak Soviet submarine fleet.

Chongs, china?

Plan has ~60 conventional attack submarines in service( 50 active duty, 10 in reserve).
8-10 nuclear attack submarine.

And 6 nuclear ballistic missile submarines in service, and 1 testbed sub.

The total tonnage of PLAN submarine fleet is ~300,000 tons.
Which is 50% of total tonnage of entire tonnage of Indian navy ~600,000 tons.


If your curious,Total tonnage on Indian navy's submarine fleet is ~57,000 tons.

Total tonnage of PLAN is 2,000,000+ tons.

Indian navy's total tonnage is 30% of PLAN'S total tonnage.
But our submarine fleet's total tonnage is only 19% of PLAN'S submarine fleet's total tonnage.

 

[liberalredditor]

Chongs, china?

Plan has ~60 conventional attack submarines in service( 50 active duty, 10 in reserve).
8-10 nuclear attack submarine.

And 6 nuclear ballistic missile submarines in service, and 1 testbed sub.

The total tonnage of PLAN submarine fleet is ~300,000 tons.
Which is 50% of total tonnage of entire tonnage of Indian navy ~600,000 tons.


If your curious,Total tonnage on Indian navy's submarine fleet is ~57,000 tons.

Total tonnage of PLAN is 2,000,000+ tons.

Indian navy's total tonnage is 30% of PLAN'S total tonnage.
But our submarine fleet's total tonnage is only 19% of PLAN'S submarine fleet's total tonnage.

navy fanboys in shambles after hearing that.

but still navy knows atmanirbharmaxxing, they can equal china by 2040-47.

 

[shade2]

Chongs, china?

Plan has ~60 conventional attack submarines in service( 50 active duty, 10 in reserve).
8-10 nuclear attack submarine.

And 6 nuclear ballistic missile submarines in service, and 1 testbed sub.

The total tonnage of PLAN submarine fleet is ~300,000 tons.
Which is 50% of total tonnage of entire tonnage of Indian navy ~600,000 tons.


If your curious,Total tonnage on Indian navy's submarine fleet is ~57,000 tons.

Total tonnage of PLAN is 2,000,000+ tons.

Indian navy's total tonnage is 30% of PLAN'S total tonnage.
But our submarine fleet's total tonnage is only 19% of PLAN'S submarine fleet's total tonnage.

I'm not comparing ours and theirs, I'm saying they aren't focusing on SSN and SSBN like soviets and now russians do.
Which is what most Western countries also do.

Their conventional is also a single type derived from Kilo class, they have produced a lot of it yes but as i've said it's not a focus for them, focus is surface fleet, Type 055 cruisers and EMALS/Nuclear aircraft carriers.

I mean just see even the modern Ruskal's submarine stock

List of active Russian Navy ships - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

12 SSBN, 25 SSN/SSGN
It would be much more in Soviet times.

The reason the Soviets used to Subs-maxx and supersonic SSM-maxx is that they always modelled the Free and Dumbocratic guys coming to their seas, and these are meant to defend them.
Chong was also like this but he has changed now, and it isn't only for Taiwan.

I think once Taiwan is anschlussed the Chong will go deep into building SSN/SSGN and obviously SSBNs.

Chong could do this today but it only shows that chong also has funding and capacity limits so he's going for surface fleet maxing first.

 

[randombully]

I'm not comparing ours and theirs, I'm saying they aren't focusing on SSN and SSBN like soviets and now russians do.
Which is what most Western countries also do.

Their conventional is also a single type derived from Kilo class, they have produced a lot of it yes but as i've said it's not a focus for them, focus is surface fleet, Type 055 cruisers and EMALS/Nuclear aircraft carriers.

I mean just see even the modern Ruskal's submarine stock

List of active Russian Navy ships - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

12 SSBN, 25 SSN/SSGN
It would be much more in Soviet times.

The reason the Soviets used to Subs-maxx and supersonic SSM-maxx is that they always modelled the Free and Dumbocratic guys coming to their seas, and these are meant to defend them.
Chong was also like this but he has changed now, and it isn't only for Taiwan.

I think once Taiwan is anschlussed the Chong will go deep into building SSN/SSGN and obviously SSBNs.

Chong could do this today but it only shows that chong also has funding and capacity limits so he's going for surface fleet maxing first.

PlAN is not "focusing less on subs".
Currently 8-13 submarines are under construction in china, most being large SSN and SSBN subs, 1-2 SSK.
The combined tonnage of these 8-13 subs under construction will itself surpass the tonnage of Indian's navy's entire current submarine fleet.

Chinese focus previously was only to defend their backyard from US so they produced lots of SSK's, now they are transitioning towards more openly challenging the US navy in open oceans, hence more large SSN and hybrid SSK/SSN submarines are planned.

 

[liberalredditor]

vlsrsam is getting a land version too or is some testing canister?

 

[shade2]

View: https://x.com/AdithyaKM_/status/1940460341348941940

More Jaziya for Sultan Dolund, ofc not just the 6 P8i which are useful but

The new defence partnership would not only focus on procurement of weapon systems but also include co-production arrangements for Javelin anti-tank guided missile and Stryker armoured combat vehicles.

 

[FalconSlayers]

We should buy as many of these as possible, apart from more than 9 of C-295 based MRMRs and Predator-SeaGuardian UCAVs. China's surface fleet isn't as big of a threat for us as their submarine fleet it is.

View: https://x.com/AdithyaKM_/status/1940460341348941940

 

[shade2]

We should buy as many of these as possible, apart from more than 9 of C-295 based MRMRs and Predator-SeaGuardian UCAVs. China's surface fleet isn't as big of a threat for us as their submarine fleet it is.

View: https://x.com/AdithyaKM_/status/1940460341348941940

We currently have 12, with the additional 6 we will be the largest operator of P8 apart from the US.

 

[silentassassin265]

We currently have 12, with the additional 6 we will be the largest operator of P8 apart from the US.

P8i is fine as we can get spare parts for boeing aircraft.
We should avoid any offensive platform or anything without alternative supply chain.

 

[Azaad]

View: https://x.com/AdithyaKM_/status/1940460341348941940

More Jaziya for Sultan Dolund, ofc not just the 6 P8i which are useful but


View attachment 42002

Ah , I was looking forward to this bit of news @ additional P-8I for reasons I'd try to explain in a bit.

Besides , wasn't news of the Stryker being disqualified in trials conducted by the IA published during Operation Sindoor ? Further with multiple choices as far as desi ATGMs go where & how will the Javelins fit in ?

Either this is lazy journalism or the MoD is paying lip service to the partnership. If you guys recall back in the final days of the Obummer administration , the then SecDef - Ashton Carter moved heaven & earth to sign just such an agreement with us.

If I'm not mistaken such a deal was concluded too & a road map defined as to the JVs we'd undertake. I've yet to see a single one materialise in the nearly 9 years since.

I wouldn't lose much sleep over this bit of news which brings me to my opening paragraph on further procurement of the P-8Is.

I believe this was done partly coz the IN needs it & partly coz I strongly believe we'd see movement on the Su-57 once Putin visits later this year.

Possibly more S-400 / S-500 too in addition to local mfg perhaps & other items to be procured like the Voronezh & other VHF / UHF & EW systems with or without local mfg.

See this deal with the US partly as jizia for us to conclude a deal with the Russians. Incidentally this requirement of P-8Is was due to be fructify in Biden's tenure .

However the behind the scenes tussle thanks to our persisting with relations with Russia in stark opposition to US diktats & buying crude oil form them with US fingering us on the Nijjar , Pannu & other issues saw postponement of the requirement. In any case here we are now.

 

[randombully]

View attachment 42001

vlsrsam is getting a land version too or is some testing canister?

Most likely testing.
Army and airforce like, bigger warheads in their surface to air missiles, because they can.

Unlike air to air missiles and naval vls stored missiles( small size means more missiles can be fitted), where relatively compact size is desired.

Hence, astra's naval varient called VLSRSAM was developed for navy.
But army went for a more heavier qrsam missile.

But again, it's general, there can be and are many exceptions.

Like the new ins tamal, which carries shtil 9M317M missile, which weights 581 kg.
Range of 70 km
Altitude of 25km ( 80k feet).
9M317M is the missile used in new "land based" medium range, relatively high altitude buk m3 air defense system, ins tamal uses naval varient of buk m3 as it's main radar and main air defense missile, hence the missile quite heavy and big
The penalty here comes with reduced no. Of missiles.
Ins tamal carriers 24 of these missiles.

Compare this to our naval barak 8 missiles, of which 32 can be carried in same space, and are carried in our ships, as barak 8 was developed as a compromise between both land based and naval use.

Naval Barak 8 weighs 270+ kg.
100km range
Altitude 18-20km( ~60k feet).

Plus navies mainly intent of use these to shoot down incoming missiles coming towards them, launched by fighters from standoff distances( navies expect fighters will use standoff distance), so they are more acceptable of smaller warheads to achieve compact size so more missiles can be stored.


While land based systems, you don't have as much space & weight constraints, so larger missiles with larger warhead( larger blast and fragment area of larger warhead) are preferred.

 

[randombully]

We currently have 12, with the additional 6 we will be the largest operator of P8 apart from the US.

Yeah, More anti sub capability is a need. Chinese surface fleet won't have the capacity of seriously challenge indian navy and sustain long independent operation far away from home, in IOR until mid 2030s.

But their submarine fleet can be annoying , especially with the PLANs focus changing to nuclear attack subs( good for long duration operation) from conventional ssks.

 

[liberalredditor]

Yeah, More anti sub capability is a need. Chinese surface fleet won't have the capacity of seriously challenge indian navy and sustain long independent operation far away from home, in IOR until mid 2030s.

But their submarine fleet can be annoying , especially with the PLANs focus changing to nuclear attack subs( good for long duration operation) from conventional ssks.

can we not have a atmanirbhar solution for asw aircrafts like p8i. we can get a a321lr or xlr and drdo can fit in its solutions for the need, why to give jaziya to burgers at every step, a321lr/xlr has much better endurance and range as compared to 737.

 

[randombully]

can we not have a atmanirbhar solution for asw aircrafts like p8i. we can get a a321lr or xlr and drdo can fit in its solutions for the need, why to give jaziya to burgers at every step, a321lr/xlr has much better endurance and range as compared to 737.

We do have the capablity now.
But by now we "already" use " " p8s now, 12 of these infact.
So already dependent.


Plus additional cost+time of buying an european airliner, developing our own equivalent systems for maritime use, modifying the airliner, fitting all the systems, all the testing, will easily take 5+ years for 1st delivery, plus per unit cost can be more than double compared to p8is., due to all this hard work for only "6" jets

Plus already has, supply chain and maintain infra for these p8is.

 

[shade2]

can we not have a atmanirbhar solution for asw aircrafts like p8i. we can get a a321lr or xlr and drdo can fit in its solutions for the need, why to give jaziya to burgers at every step, a321lr/xlr has much better endurance and range as compared to 737.

We can but it's not worth it.

P8I is well integrated, it has some BEL data transfer module also( if the sonobouys track a submarine it's location can be relayed to other ships i presume )

We are also going to make the sonobuoys domestically.

Anyway the job of P8I and MH-60R is to detect/track submarines, waise to kill them every IN ship has some kind of torpedo available.

 

[FalconSlayers]

View: https://x.com/sidhant/status/1940629546950447298

can we not have a atmanirbhar solution for asw aircrafts like p8i. we can get a a321lr or xlr and drdo can fit in its solutions for the need, why to give jaziya to burgers at every step, a321lr/xlr has much better endurance and range as compared to 737.

We are building an ASW aircraft based on C-295 (MRMR), but it is medium range. P8 have longer range and endurance as well as better sensor suite. Apart from that 15 MQ-9B SeaGuardian drones have been purchased, which I believe should be procured in higher numbers as low cost supplements to existing capacity.

 

[liberalredditor]

15 MQ-9B SeaGuardian drones have been purchased, which I believe should be procured in higher numbers as low cost supplements to existing capacity.

why to import it at such a high price, just get tapas or archer ng with naval warfare modifications, even if it flies 10 hours it would be great, for hale specific area we can get adani drone with mods, burgers will suck our whole def budget and then not deliver even a single piece

 

[shade2]

why to import it at such a high price, just get tapas or archer ng with naval warfare modifications, even if it flies 10 hours it would be great, for hale specific area we can get adani drone with mods, burgers will suck our whole def budget and then not deliver even a single piece

It drops sonobouoys saar, plus has a great radar as per mist_consecutive, basically it will do half the job of P8I without requiring human crew, basically continous surveillance.


Imo tracking and blasting enemy subs should be our priority till IN actually gets it's new subs in the water.



My only issue with this is since it's a ((( drone ))) the Burgers can brick it by cutting the satellite uplink.

 

[liberalredditor]

i hope karol bagh mod makers have removed the paint and eots till now, aur ek do blades bhi nikal dena engine ka