Operation Sindoor & Aftermath (93 Viewers)

[shade2]

View: https://x.com/Defencematrix1/status/1941893818888196314

Le Sauce :- https://www.avion-chasse.fr/sindoor-eric-trappier-refute-les-pertes-de-rafale-lors-dun-combat

 

[redpanda]

FYI, military does not serve the gormint, they serve the Indian state, The president is their commander in chief. administrative matters are handled by gormint on behalf of the president.

Indian military is under no obligation to make anything public, public is on need to know basis on matters related to military, only to the extent of info they want to make public.

Yep public views also hardly affect military decisions. So we debating on how birds fell here & there is irrelevant. Because military already have things at place to do analysis of such matters.

 

[Ajayant Tripathi]

I don't think government wishes to hide it forever. I'm just saying they don't think it's the right time to release the full report of the operation. Because things have yet to cool off. If they really wanted to keep it confidential they wouldn't be allowing CDS and IA personal to talk about our losses albeit in a vague manner. They have their own internal assessment wrt to various factors like strategic, internal politics, geopolitics, etc. Perhaps from that assesment they have arrived to the conclusion that this isn't the right time to release everything bare. Let's have patience. Currently the situation is still tense.

I don't know if delaying it anymore helps unless we are preparing for a phase 2. I wish their is a phase 2.

Its perfect time to disclose information. Infact we were lucky to witness Israel-Iran skirmish. It has educated people to the probability of possible BM strikes going through. Now is actually perfect time. Imagery of recent conflicts is fresh in people's mind and they can easily appreciate our outstanding performance.

Today' people are much more appreciatie of war it seems. I don't know why its. But their is a slight hawkishness in people i meet. I believe congress will actually find itself at receiving end. Ofcourse GoI will face scrutiny on our defense preparedness. I think majority of the people will actually not ask what we lost. They will instead ask why we ignored indian systems? Why indian systems are not bought timely? Where is Indian MIC? I don't believe people will be stuck at rafale loss. They will instead ask why Tejas is not inducted? Where is our own engine? Why are we not preparing for a threat from China?

In end again, I believe its perfect time to disclose and engage in a public debate when public memory of war is fresh.

 

[redpanda]

I don't know if delaying it anymore helps unless we are preparing for a phase 2. I wish their is a phase 2.

Its perfect time to disclose information. Infact we were lucky to witness Israel-Iran skirmish. It has educated people to the probability of possible BM strikes going through. Now is actually perfect time. Imagery of recent conflicts is fresh in people's mind and they can easily appreciate our outstanding performance.

Today' people are much more appreciatie of war it seems. I don't know why its. But their is a slight hawkishness in people i meet. I believe congress will actually find itself at receiving end. Ofcourse GoI will face scrutiny on our defense preparedness. I think majority of the people will actually not ask what we lost. They will instead ask why we ignored indian systems? Why indian systems are not bought timely? Where is Indian MIC? I don't believe people will be stuck at rafale loss. They will instead ask why Tejas is not inducted? Where is our own engine? Why are we not preparing for a threat from China?

In end again, I believe its perfect time to disclose and engage in a public debate when public memory of war is fresh.

While I agree there are people like us who understands how military objectives work, not everyone is same. You are being very optimistic about our people even here there were people literally crying over alleged 69 Rafale shot down during the whole operations. Heck a lot of my normie friends were saying what did we achieve by wasting an expensive bird in blowing some terrorist huts. We have all kind of idiots like that.

 

[shade2]

I don't know if delaying it anymore helps unless we are preparing for a phase 2. I wish their is a phase 2.

Its perfect time to disclose information. Infact we were lucky to witness Israel-Iran skirmish. It has educated people to the probability of possible BM strikes going through. Now is actually perfect time. Imagery of recent conflicts is fresh in people's mind and they can easily appreciate our outstanding performance.

Today' people are much more appreciatie of war it seems. I don't know why its. But their is a slight hawkishness in people i meet. I believe congress will actually find itself at receiving end. Ofcourse GoI will face scrutiny on our defense preparedness. I think majority of the people will actually not ask what we lost. They will instead ask why we ignored indian systems? Why indian systems are not bought timely? Where is Indian MIC? I don't believe people will be stuck at rafale loss. They will instead ask why Tejas is not inducted? Where is our own engine? Why are we not preparing for a threat from China?

In end again, I believe its perfect time to disclose and engage in a public debate when public memory of war is fresh.

No point giving the opposition traitors ammo to spin things beyond recognition and also give the Pakis a stick to beat us with, when they haven't revealed their losses.

They should just keep an eye on the uniformed class giving interviews or generally speaking something, especially in a foreign country.

From what is being done now it seems like "we lost planes because of RoE, Op Sindoor was a failure" will be the narrative.

 

[shade2]

Kehna kya chaha rahe hai
We hit our own aircraft?

He says friendly fire so yes
Atleast this time it wasn't a helicopter carrying 9 guys


Normally for any Ls incurred during an operation you'd have the generols being subject to questions of the relevant politicians.

Here if the L's are made public the opposition and media snakes will somehow pin it on Mudi as if he was the afsar in charge of planning and all.

 

[randombully]

Kehna kya chaha rahe hai
We hit our own aircraft?

From what we know, The incident happened near Bhatinda .

 

[Ajayant Tripathi]

FYI, military does not serve the gormint, they serve the Indian state, The president is their commander in chief. administrative matters are handled by gormint on behalf of the president.

Indian military is under no obligation to make anything public, public is on need to know basis on matters related to military, only to the extent of info they want to make public.

Going into technicalities. I see.

Well here is a thing. Indian state is formalized in constitution of India. It in its preamble says "We the people". Also, parliament can legally actually enquire the military directly.

The president may be head of the state but PM is head of the government and council of ministers is the legitimate decision maker which the president must stamp.

So, the real power vests with elected representatives who are again accountable to people. Thus people have every right to know about the preparedness and and execution of any operation. Thats why government will need to go public with the information. Its not china. Its India. Its not pakistan where army can pee on elected representatives. Its India.
This decision is to be made by government and it must make the decision to fully disclose details and objectives of operation. People need to know the objectives, losses and gains. They may not need to know full operational posture, tactics, etc. But they need to know the results.

 

[hurrians]

बठिंडा प्लेन क्रैश, जिसमें हरियाणा का युवक मरा: चश्मदीद बोले- आग का गोला बनकर नीचे गिरा, धमाका होते ही टुकड़े हुए - Bathinda News

भारत की पाकिस्तान पर ऑपरेशन सिंदूर एयर स्ट्राइक के दौरान बठिंडा के जिस खेत में प्लेन क्रैश हुआ, वह पंजाब पुलिस के घेरे में है। 2 किलोमीटर दूर ही यहां आम लोगों और मीडिया की एंट्री बंद है। सिर्फ अधिकारी जा रहे हैं। | Punjab Bathinda Indian Air Force (IAF) Plane Crash Ground Report Update बठिंडा के...

www.bhaskar.com

 

[Ajayant Tripathi]

While I agree there are people like us who understands how military objectives work, not everyone is same. You are being very optimistic about our people even here there were people literally crying over alleged 69 Rafale shot down during the whole operations. Heck a lot of my normie friends were saying what did we achieve by wasting an expensive bird in blowing some terrorist huts. We have all kind of idiots like that.

Thats why debate is more important. People need to realize the symbolic importance of our actions.

It doesn't matter if we blew the huts. What really mattered was we crossed the border. It doesn't matter if we destroyed a platform on the runway. What really matters is we were able to hit their airbases. It was our choice not to inflict real material losses.

Showing intent and capabilties in itself has material value. Now, Porkie genrols know they are at our mercy. They can't do shit.

Also, a debate will actually impress upon our masses the real danger of war from pakistan and china. They will learn that its not the front but the home field that matters too. Also, remember our current public discourse is language wars. I will be very happy if its replaced with OP. Sindoor and national security issues. I will prefer opposition doing rudali over rafale losses but not some language or regional fight.

If we have to choose the poison atleast choose one which we like.

I see nopoint in avoiding a real public debate on it. Let the opposition try its

 

[redpanda]

Thats why debate is more important. People need to realize the symbolic importance of our actions.

It doesn't matter if we blew the huts. What really mattered was we crossed the border. It doesn't matter if we destroyed a platform on the runway. What really matters is we were able to hit their airbases. It was our choice not to inflict real material losses.

Showing intent and capabilties in itself has material value. Now, Porkie genrols know they are at our mercy. They can't do shit.

Also, a debate will actually impress upon our masses the real danger of war from pakistan and china. They will learn that its not the front but the home field that matters too. Also, remember our current public discourse is language wars. I will be very happy if its replaced with OP. Sindoor and national security issues. I will prefer opposition doing rudali over rafale losses but not some language or regional fight.

If we have to choose the poison atleast choose one which we like.

I see nopoint in avoiding a real public debate on it. Let the opposition try its

Ajayant bro they will release it when they feel it. And they will release what they wish to release. Military has rights to keep things confidential even if you file an RTI for something. Whether you or I like it or not.

They have their own reasons for it. Especially in a tense situation like this. All of us here are having a debate over this because they decided to release some operational details. There are processes to it, what could be made public or not. That's why we see only bits and pieces for now. Military can't just break those protocols and decides to release everything to the public. It is by no means is forced to do it.

 

[randombully]

From what we know, The incident happened near Bhatinda .

View attachment 42424View attachment 42425

More accurate location of incident would be akalia khurd which is a village near Bathinda, 80+ km away from Pakistani border.
And just 18-20 km away laterally from air force station, Bhatinda.

 

[ezsasa]

Going into technicalities. I see.

Well here is a thing. Indian state is formalized in constitution of India. It in its preamble says "We the people". Also, parliament can legally actually enquire the military directly.

The president may be head of the state but PM is head of the government and council of ministers is the legitimate decision maker which the president must stamp.

So, the real power vests with elected representatives who are again accountable to people. Thus people have every right to know about the preparedness and and execution of any operation. Thats why government will need to go public with the information. Its not china. Its India. Its not pakistan where army can pee on elected representatives. Its India.
This decision is to be made by government and it must make the decision to fully disclose details and objectives of operation. People need to know the objectives, losses and gains. They may not need to know full operational posture, tactics, etc. But they need to know the results.

the bold part is a misnomer, the term "right" is being used liberally here. Indian military is exempt from public's right to know. at best you can say, Indian military should be transparent in public interest.

this "rights" chooran is for western nations who have already secured their borders,which India hasn't. theoretically India is always under clear and present threat 365 days, ours and our enemy's chess boards are set pieces. since 47, they have been using the same tactics again and again and again. unlike U.S or european military, Indian military doesn't get to go back to their country after a campaign.

our land is our battlefield, the enemy is always looking to exploit our weaknesses, and we have an abnormal state as an enemy . even inadvertently opsec should not be compromised.

so when military is ready to share details, they will, after they have done with their internal screening processes.

 

[redpanda]

He says friendly fire so yes
Atleast this time it wasn't a helicopter carrying 9 guys


Normally for any Ls incurred during an operation you'd have the generols being subject to questions of the relevant politicians.

Here if the L's are made public the opposition and media snakes will somehow pin it on Mudi as if he was the afsar in charge of planning and all.

Also it seems like it wasn't really that severe. Because we didn't lost any rafale. Probably it was just damaged a bit and was operationally ready next day. Now CDS's answer makes sense. That IAF rectified their mistake next day and performed exceptionally well without much issue.

 

[dkkgp]

Guys, even the Goras are increasingly starting to see through the Paki propaganda. Dude trolled the daylights out of Orangutanzeb


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTBKmN6OPwQ

 

[Ajayant Tripathi]

Ajayant bro they will release it when they feel it. And they will release what they wish to release. Military has rights to keep things confidential even if you file an RTI for something. Whether you or I like it or not.

They have their own reasons for it. Especially in a tense situation like this. All of us here are having a debate over this because they decided to release some operational details. There are processes to it, what could be made public or not. That's why we see only bits and pieces for now. Military can't just break those protocols and decides to release everything to the public. It is by no means is forced to do it.

I know about it and i have never disregarded that aspect. I didn't ask for discloser before. I am asking now because, Op. Sindoor is practically over now. Dust has settled and the trickling information is just bringing more confusion.
I think its now appropriate time to come clean. Brief the public. It doesn't need to be direct public dialogue. Just release the official statement to press casually.

I am all in if govt. is planning for a phase 2.

 

[Nibbler]

I know about it and i have never disregarded that aspect. I didn't ask for discloser before. I am asking now because, Op. Sindoor is practically over now. Dust has settled and the trickling information is just bringing more confusion.
I think its now appropriate time to come clean. Brief the public. It doesn't need to be direct public dialogue. Just release the official statement to press casually.

I am all in if govt. is planning for a phase 2.

I think you can piece together the losses if you see what's out in public domain already

(Spoiler) 3 manned and 1 uav (/spoiler)

 

[Ajayant Tripathi]

the bold part is a misnomer, the term "right" is being used liberally here. Indian military is exempt from public's right to know. at best you can say, Indian military should be transparent in public interest.

this "rights" chooran is for western nations who have already secured their borders,which India hasn't. theoretically India is always under clear and present threat 365 days, ours and our enemy's chess boards are set pieces. since 47, they have been using the same tactics again and again and again. unlike U.S or european military, Indian military doesn't get to go back to their country after a campaign.

our land is our battlefield, the enemy is always looking to exploit our weaknesses, and we have an abnormal state as an enemy . even inadvertently opsec should not be compromised.

so when military is ready to share details, they will, after they have done with their internal screening processes.

Yes, not every thing can be divulged to public. I stated this aspect in one of my previous post. I clearly stated that people do not need to know about operational posture, tactics etc.

I was not asking about operational security. I am asking about operational results. So, divulging the losses inflicted and incured do not compromise with operational security anymore. How will officially and directly acknowledging some material loss compromise with our preparedness and readiness?? Does it even matter if we lost one or a few Rafale? Also Doesn't enemy already have enough resources to independently ascertain the said information?? People don't need to know every nitty gritty detail. They just need to know simple answers. Losses to us and losses to them. They also don't need to know how many bullets we fired from L70. Just some significant information like popular platforms used, how did they perform, did any of the platform failed expectations (no need to tell its name). Just these things.

About right, we are a constitutional state. Social contract grants some rights to its citizens. Even though we are a civilizational nation but we are social contract based state.

 

[Nishaanbaaz]

Kehna kya chaha rahe hai
We hit our own aircraft?

If this is true; it would explain the incredibly angry reaction Abingdonboy (not sure if username spelt correctly) had in the initial hours where he was cursing IAF and speaking about "lessons not learned from 2019."

 

[randombully]

If this is true; it would explain the incredibly angry reaction Abingdonboy (not sure if username spelt correctly) had in the initial hours where he was cursing IAF and speaking about "lessons not learned from 2019."

His reaction was more about "pakistan being ready to hit back", and IAF being unprepared to counter the retaliation, though this time due to restricted ROE by gov. .
Though again, the following days, we pounded the shit out of them