Operation Sindoor & Aftermath (75 Viewers)

[Simon Riley]

 

[concard]

A personal theory regarding IAF's takedown of PAF AWACS (please correct me if I'm misrepresenting the timeline of events): The biggest advantage that PAF had over IAF was in terms of AWACS. So it was very plausible that IAF wanted to take this advantage out very quickly, as these AWACS would have guided the volley of missiles that PAF launched in the initial engagement, which may have hit one or two of our aircraft (and several decoys and drones we launched).

To achieve this, the S-400 was utilised, and the PAF promptly deployed their AWACS alongside civilian airlines, thereby halting our targeting efforts. This was confirmed by Wing Commander Vyomika Singh on May 9. If we had shot a civilian aircraft, then that would have been a major embarrassment for us.

So we did some more intelligence tracking and some international threatening, and PAF had to stand down from using civilian aircraft as a shield. That very night, one AWACS was taken out of the air by S-400 or at least damaged near the Dinga village in Pakistan.

PAF couldn't take any further risk and decided to push their remaining AWACS to a far-off base so that IAF wouldn't target them. And once they landed, India again bombed them with BrahMos, destroying or damaging their second AWACS.

So it became a Catch 22 situation where most of their AWACS can't either fly (because of long-range SAMs) or even land (in case they catch a BrahMos or SCALP missile). The first AWACS takedown would have also prompted PAF to launch CM-400AKG strikes on potential S-400 sites, which again failed.

You are mostly right except for the first paragraph. Their AWACS which is SAAB Erieye cannot guide Chinese missiles like PL-15E or for that matter anything Chinese apart from NATO missiles. It can surely guide F-16 launched AMRAAMs but not other ones which are of non-NATO origin. Their AWACS are most likely used to direct their fighter aircrafts in the direction of IAF formations to engage with them.

All the talk about Porkis developing their own data links is absolute BS. These morons don't have any track record of developing a ground based radar let alone a sophisticated radar which goes into a fighter aircraft. To think they will develop a data link and to think a Swedish Company SAAB will give access to source code to modify their AWACS is too good to be true in my opinion.

 

[HarshCapser]

You are mostly right except for the first paragraph. Their AWACS which is SAAB Erieye cannot guide Chinese missiles like PL-15E or for that matter anything Chinese apart from NATO missiles. It can surely guide F-16 launched AMRAAMs but not other ones which are of non-NATO origin. Their AWACS are most likely used to direct their fighter aircrafts in the direction of IAF formations to engage with them.

All the talk about Porkis developing their own data links is absolute BS. These morons don't have any track record of developing a ground based radar let alone a sophisticated radar which goes into a fighter aircraft. To think they will develop a data link and to think a Swedish Company SAAB will give access to source code to modify their AWACS is too good to be true in my opinion.

If true, this puts into serious question the efficacy of their Erieyes and their potential use in any long-term conflict, especially with their huge fleet of JF-17, J-10 and upcoming J-35. It might make sense for PAF to just get KJ-500 from China, which will be another threat vector that IAF would need to encounter. The role of AWACS in detecting and tracking the firing of BVRAAM is very much underestimated and IAF would need to take out these platforms quick at the onset of any conflict.

 

[HarshCapser]

I'm sure that most of the folks here hate the Wire publication, but here's an interesting interview that they did with retired Lieutenant general David A. Deptula of USAF, who is famed to have planned the “Desert Storm” air campaign and led the initial post-9/11 “Operation Enduring Freedom” in Afghanistan.

Interview | USAF Veteran on Op Sindoor, Need for Transparency on Losses, 'Source Code Diplomacy'

Lt Gen David A. Deptula (retired) says that source code is the new sovereign edge in fighter jet diplomacy and is often used as a bargaining chip.

thewire.in

High-level highlights include:

• IAF lost 2 fighter aircrafts: Mig-29 and Rafale. IAF definitely had strategic surprise but the non-escalatory rules of engagement were to IAF's disadvantage.
• IAF was unable to rapidly reprogram the Rafale for indigenous munitions or optimise data-link interoperability. This led us to sacrifice operational flexibility.
• IAF turned the tide after May 7 with "Air-launched cruise missiles and extended-range air-to-air missiles". (We know the cruise missiles employed but not the BVRAAMs that IAF used)
• Pakistan suffered significant losses of aircraft and air defence systems supplied by China. Chinese weapons systems, such as the PL-15E missile, did not perform well.
• Source code is the new sovereign edge in fighter jet diplomacy. The US and France guard their intellectual property to protect integration security and geopolitical leverage.

The Lt. Gen goes on an unsubstantiated gaga over Pakistani modernization, even though 80% of their equipments are imported from China, while underscoring India's measured steps in self-reliance. Guess only the next round will show what lessons each side learnt out of this conflict.

 

[concard]

If true, this puts into serious question the efficacy of their Erieyes and their potential use in any long-term conflict, especially with their huge fleet of JF-17, J-10 and upcoming J-35. It might make sense for PAF to just get KJ-500 from China, which will be another threat vector that IAF would need to encounter. The role of AWACS in detecting and tracking the firing of BVRAAM is very much underestimated and IAF would need to take out these platforms quick at the onset of any conflict.

No, again you are wrong. SAAB Erieyes are very much capable platforms. Otherwise they wouldn't buy 9 of them. What they regret probably is the purchase of Chinese KJ-500 AWACS. Apparently they were so bad they had actually retired soon and wanted to convert them into electronic warfare aircrafts. You see the reason they bought so many Erieyes is because the defensive platforms like air defense systems are more expensive for them.

In fact, air defense systems are more expensive and are expendable. Once you fire a missile to intercept a aircraft/missile you are at the mercy of the OEM which in Porkistan case is China who supplied them with HQ-9 air defense system which failed spectacularly. The missile needs to be replaced by the OEM where you have to shell out money again. That is why they go for platforms which makes more sense for them like Erieye platform. Their war plans always included taking out our air bases and our air force. They attacked our air bases in 1971 starting the war. They know very well if they don't take out our air assets and our air capability, they are smoked for good.

On the ground our army have 2:1 advantage over men and equipment. They can't outgun us, outrun us or overwhelm us in any way. Having air superiority at least ensures them we don't go for ground invasion.

 

[randombully]

On the ground our army have 2:1 advantage over men and equipment

On paper.
Large percentage of pak army equipment is in storage and not operational.
Plus their supply of basic things like fuel, artillary shell etc are very limited compared to our army.
And their ability to protect their limited factories that produce them is non existent.

 

[shade2]

On paper.
Large percentage of pak army equipment is in storage and not operational.
Plus their supply of basic things like fuel, artillary shell etc are very limited compared to our army.
And their ability to protect their limited factories that produce them is non existent.

Biggest benefit is our strategic depth.

Our stuff is in deep south, meanwhile their whole country is in the range of our weapons

Storage, Production everything we can boom

 

[The Juggernaut]

Biggest benefit is our strategic depth.

Our stuff is in deep south, meanwhile their whole country is in the range of our weapons

Storage, Production everything we can boom

I want near-total annihilation of Pak-Military-Complex. Let their system be crushed in such a way they will find pieces at every place. I want it done in such a way. that world sees the humiliations. I want it so, that Our MIC profit. Nothing makes better advertisement that some real war usage. Let there be like that. Whole military finished, nation disintegrate and All politician surrender like POW. To know that there is no one protect there.

 

[The Juggernaut]

Biggest benefit is our strategic depth.

Our stuff is in deep south, meanwhile their whole country is in the range of our weapons

Storage, Production everything we can boom

I want near-total annihilation of Pak-Military-Complex. Let their system be crushed in such a way they will find pieces at every place. I want it done in such a way. that world sees the humiliations. I want it so, that Our MIC profit. Nothing makes better advertisement that some real war usage. Let there be like that. Whole military finished, nation disintegrate and All politician surrender like POW. To know that there is no one protect there.

 

[shade2]

I want near-total annihilation of Pak-Military-Complex. Let their system be crushed in such a way they will find pieces at every place. I want it done in such a way. that world sees the humiliations. I want it so, that Our MIC profit. Nothing makes better advertisement that some real war usage. Let there be like that. Whole military finished, nation disintegrate and All politician surrender like POW. To know that there is no one protect there.

((( world ))) won't see their humiliation, even if it does their master America will get his media dogs to spin it away

Most foreign fools on the internet believe that Paki shot down over 9000 rafales and sukhois and are led to believe we made insignificant craters in runways onlee

If we give a muscular response they may spin it as the Pakis being a Gaza style victim.

Anyway our goal must be to destroy all/most of their expensive platforms like ships, subs, aircrafts, storage depots, oil, their military buildings etc.

After which they will be forced to commit to one Abbu only, methinks it's China so that will atleast get the Amerisharts to stop supporting them.

 

[Interested]

((( world ))) won't see their humiliation, even if it does their master America will get his media dogs to spin it away

Most foreign fools on the internet believe that Paki shot down over 9000 rafales and sukhois and are led to believe we made insignificant craters in runways onlee

If we give a muscular response they may spin it as the Pakis being a Gaza style victim.

Anyway our goal must be to destroy all/most of their expensive platforms like ships, subs, aircrafts, storage depots, oil, their military buildings etc.

After which they will be forced to commit to one Abbu only, methinks it's China so that will atleast get the Amerisharts to stop supporting them.

That's why I think instead of hitting multiple bases , the IAF should have concentrated on Sarghoda and made an example out of it in OP Sindhoor.

 

[Yt2211]

Gore unit and their sexy intel

View: https://x.com/Goreunit/status/1943678904545529961?t=5Sr73ahh9k-bH8Ig-djz6A&s=19

View attachment tweeload_oqbp9j7g.mp4

View: https://t.me/goreunit/25102

 

[redpanda]

((( world ))) won't see their humiliation, even if it does their master America will get his media dogs to spin it away

Most foreign fools on the internet believe that Paki shot down over 9000 rafales and sukhois and are led to believe we made insignificant craters in runways onlee

If we give a muscular response they may spin it as the Pakis being a Gaza style victim.

Anyway our goal must be to destroy all/most of their expensive platforms like ships, subs, aircrafts, storage depots, oil, their military buildings etc.

After which they will be forced to commit to one Abbu only, methinks it's China so that will atleast get the Amerisharts to stop supporting them.

I can expect pakis to kill their own civilians by bombing some residential area themselves during the war and then putting blame on India to play victim. Afterall they don't give a fuck about avg porkis life.

 

[Interested]

I can expect pakis to kill their own civilians by bombing some residential area themselves during the war and then putting blame on India to play victim. Afterall they don't give a fuck about avg porkis life.

They were literally shooting off Fateh 1 rockets surrounded by idiotic cheering civilians during OP Sindhoor .

The Paki brain is dust

 

[Nishaanbaaz]

Again starting from scratch, terror launch pads reactivated large no of terrorists waiting to infiltrate some junk already infiltrated. We got the data and inputs however we will wait until they execute the massacre !!!


View: https://x.com/FromGursimran/status/1943592089889173705?t=G4DhE_edKRt3ie6fB9nBLg&s=19

A very easy and immediate solution would have been giving training + military grade weapons (AK's, high quality pistols, Dragunov type light sniper rifles etc) to the people in the border areas - particularly Hindu Dogras - and tapping into the significant pool of retired servicemen a very long time ago. It's absolutely critical for people in border states/regions, especially troubled ones, to be your first line of defense/informal fighters. Had this been done, militancy would probably be even weaker by now, and Pak/Terrorists would've never been able to pivot to Jammu & send in a bunch of highly capable and sophisticated terrorists the way they did; and you'd be less worried about compromising the anti-infiltration/terrorism grid by having to pull away troops from COIN to the Chinese theater as well. But it's only recently the Gvt finally woke the fuck up and started giving some old INSAS's to VDC's (before that the fuckers gave the poor people fuckin Enfields to face off w/ terrorists armed to the teeth and in some cases may have even taken those away due to State Gvt chimp-outs).

In the long run, the only solution is steady, incremental and strategic demographic change with ex-servicemen and hard nosed, armed Hindu settlers along the Israeli West Bank model - first starting from Jammu, then eventually Kashmir Valley once you have a strong base/launchpad in Jammu. And then some day, in Gilgit Baltistan when the Gvt reconquers it. There should not be any Muslim majority regions in India anyways, especially along its fucking border with Pakistan.

 

[Simon Riley]

i guess the "specific time" he is referring to is the culmination of Amarnath yatra.if topi issues orders for pre emptive strikes then it will be one of the biggest changes in our policy.

 

[MasterChief_949]

A very easy and immediate solution would have been giving training + military grade weapons (AK's, high quality pistols, Dragunov type light sniper rifles etc) to the people in the border areas - particularly Hindu Dogras - and tapping into the significant pool of retired servicemen a very long time ago. It's absolutely critical for people in border states/regions, especially troubled ones, to be your first line of defense/informal fighters. Had this been done, militancy would probably be even weaker by now, and Pak/Terrorists would've never been able to pivot to Jammu & send in a bunch of highly capable and sophisticated terrorists the way they did; and you'd be less worried about compromising the anti-infiltration/terrorism grid by having to pull away troops from COIN to the Chinese theater as well. But it's only recently the Gvt finally woke the fuck up and started giving some old INSAS's to VDC's (before that the fuckers gave the poor people fuckin Enfields to face off w/ terrorists armed to the teeth and in some cases may have even taken those away due to State Gvt chimp-outs).

In the long run, the only solution is steady, incremental and strategic demographic change with ex-servicemen and hard nosed, armed Hindu settlers along the Israeli West Bank model - first starting from Jammu, then eventually Kashmir Valley once you have a strong base/launchpad in Jammu. And then some day, in Gilgit Baltistan when the Gvt reconquers it. There should not be any Muslim majority regions in India anyways, especially along its fucking border with Pakistan.

The actual on ground situation is actually exactly opposite,the arm license renewals have became painfully slow ,even for ex servicemen,in hindu majority areas i.e Jammu Division,forget ak 47s.
Govt has been painfully oblivious to the pain of HINDU Dogra majority in Jammu province ,which is ready to protect itself but is not being armed thanks to misguided policies in Delhi.
Jammu is already Hindu majority but whats the point if you don't even allow us to protect ourselves?? Gun licenses should be given to more border area residents with less red tape, but the fact of the matter is sadly it was easier under previous Congress govts to get gun licenses here,even license renewals are taking years now.

All these policies sound great in concept and forums,but the Govt has proven especially ineffective at implementing any such on ground.
Zero kashmiri pandits are yet to settle in Kashmir,and this is what 3rd modi term??

Huge issues in policy making and implementation, from babus and retarded Arms licenses policies to add to that.

 

[shade2]

View attachment 43035i guess the "specific time" he is referring to is the culmination of Amarnath yatra.if topi issues orders for pre emptive strikes then it will be one of the biggest changes in our policy.

Would be very based if he actually does it, the Indian state being aggressive and proactive instead of pacifistic and reactive.

Now I had my doubts over Leaderji after Pahalgam but the scale of Op Sindoor response has given me trust in him again, I still find us attacking them without provocation unlikely but I never even thought a Balakot scale response would happen to Pahalgam, so anything is possible

 

[Brood Father]

View attachment 43035i guess the "specific time" he is referring to is the culmination of Amarnath yatra.if topi issues orders for pre emptive strikes then it will be one of the biggest changes in our policy.

War and gore is making shit up . India rn is no position to do an offensive.
There is lot going on . China is against you and pro Pakistan and orange buffon is also against you
Any preemptive strike now will make India in very bad position and we don't have any diplomatic currency to salvage the position .
Pakistan knows this and so does India
Unless pakistan attempts any misadventures like Pahalgam we won't do anything and sadly lives will be lost

 

[Nishaanbaaz]

The actual on ground situation is actually exactly opposite,the arm license renewals have became painfully slow ,even for ex servicemen,in hindu majority areas i.e Jammu Division,forget ak 47s.
Govt has been painfully oblivious to the pain of HINDU Dogra majority in Jammu province ,which is ready to protect itself but is not being armed thanks to misguided policies in Delhi.
Jammu is already Hindu majority but whats the point if you don't even allow us to protect ourselves?? Gun licenses should be given to more border area residents with less red tape, but the fact of the matter is sadly it was easier under previous Congress govts to get gun licenses here,even license renewals are taking years now.

All these policies sound great in concept and forums,but the Govt has proven especially ineffective at implementing any such on ground.
Zero kashmiri pandits are yet to settle in Kashmir,and this is what 3rd modi term??

Huge issues in policy making and implementation, from babus and retarded Arms licenses policies to add to that.

I'm fully behind Dogras on all of this; to a significant extent whatever hold/peace India has managed over there is thanks to you guys doing heavy lifting (both as a pro-India civil populace and also through your significant rates of military service/enlistment). I also very strongly feel that you guys should have been freed of the Kashmir Valley in 2019 when Ladakh was separated. Bifurcating instead of Trifurcating was one of many massive fuck-ups by this Gvt in that region.

As far as KP's are concerned, all I'll say is I don't judge the Govt harshly at all for the fact that they haven't returned. There aren't many who are interested in returning, and with the exception of the ex-military ones, not too many of them would be currently suitable for being sent there. Those who are interested in returning should be sent back once the ex-servicemen & armed, dabang/gunda type settlers have done the job of stabilizing, pacifying and demographically correcting the region.