AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft

[TopWatcher]

Don't fall for Ukrainian & NATO propaganda. Russia seized a territory 3 times the area that US seized in Gulf War 1 using far less soldiers and held that for several months against overwhelming military support by NATO whereas Iraq did not and basically collapsed in the first week of Gulf War 2.

US and NATO did not have any supplies cut off to them or have their assets seized by another nation. The Russians did well considering the circumstances.

And one more thing till now India survived using Russian weapons only. That's another that we have our own weapons now.

 

[Ayan Barat]

Iraq was defended by more than 15,000 Surface to Air Missiles, 1,000 AA installations, 2,000 fixed AA guns, 6,000 mobile AA guns all linked together to very advanced ADS with more than 500 early warning radars. The night before Desert Storm, Iraq was the most heavily defended country based on size.

In the opening hour of the coalition air assault, as many as 2,000 various fixed wing aircrafts were airborne at the same time. Back in 1991, the US multi-branch coordination was so well planned that USAF B-52s flying non-stop from Louisiana (11,000km), Pave Lows carrying Delta Force operators and Tomahawks fired from submarines in Gulf reached at the same time. In a matter of hour most of the ADS, C4 centre, airbases and safe hoses had crumbled.

Element of Surprise, Speed of Attack and Violence of Attack...this is perhaps the ABC in terms of Principle of War. Back in 40s, Rommel was using this. We used this not once, but twice in 1971.

Russia has done everything from carpet bombing, strike on civilian infrastructure, bring back antiques, use of MRBMs, air assault, using NoKo mercenaries...but in almost three years of engagement Russia has failed to use the very basic principles of war; swift decisive action. Things become even more pathetic when you consider...
...it's the third strongest military
...it shares a land border with Ukraine unlike say USA and Iraq or India and Karachi

Don't fall for Ukrainian & NATO propaganda.

The problem is when people start walking backwards in a bid to avoid Western propaganda, they don't realise that at some point they'd walked into Russian propaganda.

 

[SwordOfDarkness]

Iraq was defended by more than 15,000 Surface to Air Missiles, 1,000 AA installations, 2,000 fixed AA guns, 6,000 mobile AA guns all linked together to very advanced ADS with more than 500 early warning radars. The night before Desert Storm, Iraq was the most heavily defended country based on size.

In the opening hour of the coalition air assault, as many as 2,000 various fixed wing aircrafts were airborne at the same time. Back in 1991, the US multi-branch coordination was so well planned that USAF B-52s flying non-stop from Louisiana (11,000km), Pave Lows carrying Delta Force operators and Tomahawks fired from submarines in Gulf reached at the same time. In a matter of hour most of the ADS, C4 centre, airbases and safe hoses had crumbled.

Element of Surprise, Speed of Attack and Violence of Attack...this is perhaps the ABC in terms of Principle of War. Back in 40s, Rommel was using this. We used this not once, but twice in 1971.

Russia has done everything from carpet bombing, strike on civilian infrastructure, bring back antiques, use of MRBMs, air assault, using NoKo mercenaries...but in almost three years of engagement Russia has failed to use the very basic principles of war; swift decisive action. Things become even more pathetic when you consider...
...it's the third strongest military
...it shares a land border with Ukraine unlike say USA and Iraq or India and Karachi

The problem is when people start walking backwards in a bid to avoid Western propaganda, they don't realise that at some point they'd walked into Russian propaganda.

Ive been personally been ver surprised by the complete refusal to adapt to changing circumstance.... If the russians and ukrainians are openly admitting that tank on tank engagements are practically noneistant, why bother spending considerable time and resources to modernise and reactivate old tanks? Why not take, say, truck engines and make some makeshift AFV?

It cant be that hard if Nazi germany on the verge of collapse was still pumping out tanks. You dont need much of a fancy tank, an infantryman is just as powerless to a 60mm gun as it is to a 120mm one.

Much of "Muh vladimir about to die in 3...2...1...." is just cope, but russians have clearly failed in employing the considerable advantage they have.

 

[Spitfire IX]

Don't fall for Ukrainian & NATO propaganda. Russia seized a territory 3 times the area that US seized in Gulf War 1 using far less soldiers and held that for several months against overwhelming military support by NATO whereas Iraq did not and basically collapsed in the first week of Gulf War 2.

US and NATO did not have any supplies cut off to them or have their assets seized by another nation. The Russians did well considering the circumstances.

The circumstances were that widespread corruption in Russia and its army resulted in the invasion soon grinding to a halt. Have you forgotten the 40km jam of inoperable armoured vehicles when the war started? With cheap, substandard tyres being bought for military vehicles instead of tyres meeting specifications by buyers defrauding the state, funds for fuel fuel pocketed by commanders etc, what was a mobile fighting force on paper turned out to be thousands of immobile lumps of metal. Whether the effects of corruption cost Russia the quick victory hoped for I do not know. History will tell - but not Russian history while Russia remains a corrupt, tyrannical kleptocracy.

 

[Blademaster]

Iraq was defended by more than 15,000 Surface to Air Missiles, 1,000 AA installations, 2,000 fixed AA guns, 6,000 mobile AA guns all linked together to very advanced ADS with more than 500 early warning radars. The night before Desert Storm, Iraq was the most heavily defended country based on size.

In the opening hour of the coalition air assault, as many as 2,000 various fixed wing aircrafts were airborne at the same time. Back in 1991, the US multi-branch coordination was so well planned that USAF B-52s flying non-stop from Louisiana (11,000km), Pave Lows carrying Delta Force operators and Tomahawks fired from submarines in Gulf reached at the same time. In a matter of hour most of the ADS, C4 centre, airbases and safe hoses had crumbled.

Element of Surprise, Speed of Attack and Violence of Attack...this is perhaps the ABC in terms of Principle of War. Back in 40s, Rommel was using this. We used this not once, but twice in 1971.

Russia has done everything from carpet bombing, strike on civilian infrastructure, bring back antiques, use of MRBMs, air assault, using NoKo mercenaries...but in almost three years of engagement Russia has failed to use the very basic principles of war; swift decisive action. Things become even more pathetic when you consider...
...it's the third strongest military
...it shares a land border with Ukraine unlike say USA and Iraq or India and Karachi

The problem is when people start walking backwards in a bid to avoid Western propaganda, they don't realise that at some point they'd walked into Russian propaganda.

You left out several key important facts:

US did not invade Iraq and occupy Iraq in Gulf War 1. They only went into western Iraq to outflank Iraqi forces and make a right hook into Kuwait. They stopped the ground operations only 4 days after an intense 4 month bombardment. In several weeks, they withdrew from Iraq and they left Kuwait after a year without going into Iraq. During that time, Iraq had zero state support from any other nations. Iraq received zero real intel info about military force movements. Nobody was broadcasting satellite photos and real time intel about the location of US forces and other western forces.

And half of those equipment you mentioned were not working due to lack of spare parts.

Contrast that with the 2022 invasion. US was supplying satellite photos and intel to Ukrainian forces, keeping the Ukrainian forces resupplied, providing them monetary support and literally emptying the munition supply chain to keep the Ukrainian forces viable in the combat field. Russian forces took over an area 3-4 times larger than Kuwait with far less men and resources than in Gulf War. Russian forces seized several airports in the vicinity of Kiev and surrounded Kiev. US forces didn't do that in Gulf War 1. They waited for a 4 month bombardment and ensured that all nations would not aid Iraq whatsoever.

Unlike in Iraq when nobody else came to the rescue of Iraqis, Ukrainian forces received real time intel on the whereabouts of Russian forces and were able to use their resources in hit and run tactics and redeployed their forces to keep the Russian forces from completely enveloping them. And Iraq didn't have that constant resupply that Ukraine got. Ukraine air force was rebuilt several times. Iraq air force was not. Russia completely dominated Ukrainian airspace for the better part of the entire year since the conflict started. Ukrainian army was rebuilt 3 - 4 times. And yet they are still in danger of falling apart. And Russia still controlled an area nearly the size of the area that US was in control of during Gulf War 2. During the Iraq occupation, they did not fully control the entire country, only parts of it and couldn't control the rest of it despite the area receiving zero help from any nation with the exception of Iran and Iran's level of support was in no way near the level of support that Ukraine got.

So your comment about believing Russian propaganda is way off the mark. I am calling as it is.

 

[Blademaster]

The circumstances were that widespread corruption in Russia and its army resulted in the invasion soon grinding to a halt. Have you forgotten the 40km jam of inoperable armoured vehicles when the war started? With cheap, substandard tyres being bought for military vehicles instead of tyres meeting specifications by buyers defrauding the state, funds for fuel fuel pocketed by commanders etc, what was a mobile fighting force on paper turned out to be thousands of immobile lumps of metal. Whether the effects of corruption cost Russia the quick victory hoped for I do not know. History will tell - but not Russian history while Russia remains a corrupt, tyrannical kleptocracy.

They received substandard parts from China. Most of the tires were imported from China and they didn't last too long under combat conditions.

 

[Bleh]

As seen in Ukraine, all the russian "special" weapons are not so potent.
They only are able to take some lands thanks to a huge loss of soldiers and materials. They are obliged to purchase iranian suicide drones and missiles, and north korean soldiers and 152mm shells....

We saw Russian brain is not so potent... Theur weapons were proved to be performing/underperforming comparablely with western counterparts.

I meant in the context of AMCA and such. We may have no choice but to go for FGFA again. I just hope that Russia finally got the message and start delivering what IAF wants instead of forcing a plane with non performance specs down the throat of IAF.

Honestly i think we've gotten ourselves into a bit of a pickle of short-sighted ness. J-35 is not new nor a surprise.
MWF is fine, but we should've developed it as an ALCA with atleast limited stealth to complement AMCA & be in service before 2030.
Limited Su-50 induction maybe the only saving grove for the time being until proper 5th Gen is available

 

[Blademaster]

We saw Russian brain is not so potent... Theur weapons were proved to be performing/underperforming comparablely with western counterparts.

Honestly i think we've gotten ourselves into a bit of a pickle of short-sighted ness. J-35 is not new nor a surprise.
MWF is fine, but we should've developed it as an ALCA with atleast limited stealth to complement AMCA & be in service before 2030. View attachment 19085
Limited Su-50 induction maybe the only saving grove for the time being until proper 5th Gen is available

Or as a last resort we go for KF-21 from Korea.

 

[GaudaNaresh]

Iraq was defended by more than 15,000 Surface to Air Missiles, 1,000 AA installations, 2,000 fixed AA guns, 6,000 mobile AA guns all linked together to very advanced ADS with more than 500 early warning radars. The night before Desert Storm, Iraq was the most heavily defended country based on size.

In the opening hour of the coalition air assault, as many as 2,000 various fixed wing aircrafts were airborne at the same time. Back in 1991, the US multi-branch coordination was so well planned that USAF B-52s flying non-stop from Louisiana (11,000km), Pave Lows carrying Delta Force operators and Tomahawks fired from submarines in Gulf reached at the same time. In a matter of hour most of the ADS, C4 centre, airbases and safe hoses had crumbled.

Element of Surprise, Speed of Attack and Violence of Attack...this is perhaps the ABC in terms of Principle of War. Back in 40s, Rommel was using this. We used this not once, but twice in 1971.

Russia has done everything from carpet bombing, strike on civilian infrastructure, bring back antiques, use of MRBMs, air assault, using NoKo mercenaries...but in almost three years of engagement Russia has failed to use the very basic principles of war; swift decisive action. Things become even more pathetic when you consider...
...it's the third strongest military
...it shares a land border with Ukraine unlike say USA and Iraq or India and Karachi

The problem is when people start walking backwards in a bid to avoid Western propaganda, they don't realise that at some point they'd walked into Russian propaganda.

big difference : Iraq didnt magically get the world's third highest defence budget for the year donated to them by some friend and having millions of pieces of war equipment show up free of charge to keep fighting.

Also, Air Defence zones cannot be held against saturation penetration strike, without comparable air asset.
There is no Air Defence Zone in the world that will survive attack of 2000+ air superiority fighters, with total ELINT control, when you have 0 aircrafts yourself.

 

[Spitfire IX]

Honestly i think we've gotten ourselves into a bit of a pickle of short-sighted ness. J-35 is not new nor a surprise.
MWF is fine, but we should've developed it as an ALCA with atleast limited stealth to complement AMCA & be in service before 2030.

Limited Su-50 induction maybe the only saving grove for the time being until proper 5th Gen is available

I guess that those responsible for organising Indian air assets will dither around and prevaricate until a point of serious crisis is reached at which point a rushed decision will be taken into placing an order. Su-57? KF-21? Does it matter what exactly IAF gets if the alternative would be IAF pilots undertaking no missions at all because India is incapable of organising development and production of a 5G fighter in the required timeframe?

 

[Ayan Barat]

US did not invade Iraq and occupy Iraq in Gulf War 1. They only went into western Iraq to outflank Iraqi forces and make a right hook into Kuwait. They stopped the ground operations only 4 days after an intense 4 month bombardment. In several weeks, they withdrew from Iraq and they left Kuwait after a year without going into Iraq. During that time, Iraq had zero state support from any other nations. Iraq received zero real intel info about military force movements. Nobody was broadcasting satellite photos and real time intel about the location of US forces and other western forces.

And half of those equipment you mentioned were not working due to lack of spare parts.

Contrast that with the 2022 invasion. US was supplying satellite photos and intel to Ukrainian forces, keeping the Ukrainian forces resupplied, providing them monetary support and literally emptying the munition supply chain to keep the Ukrainian forces viable in the combat field. Russian forces took over an area 3-4 times larger than Kuwait with far less men and resources than in Gulf War. Russian forces seized several airports in the vicinity of Kiev and surrounded Kiev. US forces didn't do that in Gulf War 1. They waited for a 4 month bombardment and ensured that all nations would not aid Iraq whatsoever.

Unlike in Iraq when nobody else came to the rescue of Iraqis, Ukrainian forces received real time intel on the whereabouts of Russian forces and were able to use their resources in hit and run tactics and redeployed their forces to keep the Russian forces from completely enveloping them. And Iraq didn't have that constant resupply that Ukraine got. Ukraine air force was rebuilt several times. Iraq air force was not. Russia completely dominated Ukrainian airspace for the better part of the entire year since the conflict started. Ukrainian army was rebuilt 3 - 4 times. And yet they are still in danger of falling apart. And Russia still controlled an area nearly the size of the area that US was in control of during Gulf War 2. During the Iraq occupation, they did not fully control the entire country, only parts of it and couldn't control the rest of it despite the area receiving zero help from any nation with the exception of Iran and Iran's level of support was in no way near the level of support that Ukraine got.

So your comment about believing Russian propaganda is way off the mark. I am calling as it is.

> Cribbing about international support, crying about satellite images in 2021 when even I can buy Maxar image, compare FIRMS data, saying Ukrainian AF was rebuilt 3-4 times when there's enough evidence of suggest that it was never completely annihilate in the first place - 1
> Admitting the childish mistakes from the 3rd strongest military - 0

big difference : Iraq didnt magically get the world's third highest defence budget for the year donated to them by some friend and having millions of pieces of war equipment show up free of charge to keep fighting.

Also, Air Defence zones cannot be held against saturation penetration strike, without comparable air asset.
There is no Air Defence Zone in the world that will survive attack of 2000+ air superiority fighters, with total ELINT co

> Again same thing, crying about defence budget and free military equipment - 1
> Admitting the childish mistakes from the 3rd strongest military - 0

but russians have clearly failed in employing the considerable advantage they have.

Exactly, the fact that the third strongest military has to scramble to get loitering munitions from other countries some two years into the war shows how there's something very crucial that they missed to do in the first 24 hours.

If it was any other competent military; not just USA, even us or China then not a single hangar, oil depot, runway would have survived the first 1 hour. The air-bridge at Hostomel would have been successfully stabilized. And any Ukrainian resistance would have reduced to just smaller, partisan like attack.

People here cry about countries helping Ukraine, defence budget, free military equipment...but fail to understand that all these are happening because Russia let them.

For the sake of drawing parallels
> The Russian attack on Ukraine looks more like Pakistani attack on us during Operation Chengis Khan
> When in reality it should have looked like our attack on Pakistan during Trident and Python

 

[Blademaster]

> Cribbing about international support, crying about satellite images in 2021 when even I can buy Maxar image, compare FIRMS data, saying Ukrainian AF was rebuilt 3-4 times when there's enough evidence of suggest that it was never completely annihilate in the first place - 1
> Admitting the childish mistakes from the 3rd strongest military - 0

> Again same thing, crying about defence budget and free military equipment - 1
> Admitting the childish mistakes from the 3rd strongest military - 0

Exactly, the fact that the third strongest military has to scramble to get loitering munitions from other countries some two years into the war shows how there's something very crucial that they missed to do in the first 24 hours.

If it was any other competent military; not just USA, even us or China then not a single hangar, oil depot, runway would have survived the first 1 hour. The air-bridge at Hostomel would have been successfully stabilized. And any Ukrainian resistance would have reduced to just smaller, partisan like attack.

People here cry about countries helping Ukraine, defence budget, free military equipment...but fail to understand that all these are happening because Russia let them.

For the sake of drawing parallels
> The Russian attack on Ukraine looks more like Pakistani attack on us during Operation Chengis Khan
> When in reality it should have looked like our attack on Pakistan during Trident and Python

Ok if you want to engage in childish responses like a 9 year old child who thinks he’s the smartest person in the world and resorts to denigrating comments and bringing no value of debate, I have no further interest in debating this with you further.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

Try doing this with SFDR Astra Mark3. That should be skinnier

Your associate Kuntal Biswas made early CAD of 2 Astr-3 SFDR /bay, total 4 AAMs, but pic is angled, the bay is short with big gap in between.


He has also made multiple CADs of Astr-3 SFDR BUT with different fin & ramjet intake dimensions.


The 3rd one is the only one with bottom view so if we resize it with IWB then still it will be a TIGHT UNSAFE fit of 3 staggered AAMs/bay.
And if we consider 3 staggered Meteors (AAM CAD by artist "AkelaFreedom") then although it is 6" shorter but its intakes & fins seem to be wider & overflows out of bay.
The long intakes make it difficult to stagger.


Editing in MS Paint, Photoshop, etc can produce inaccurate errors.
It is best accurate if the artists themselves produce this kind of images. But most of them don't.

 

[AbRaj]

> Cribbing about international support, crying about satellite images in 2021 when even I can buy Maxar image, compare FIRMS data, saying Ukrainian AF was rebuilt 3-4 times when there's enough evidence of suggest that it was never completely annihilate in the first place - 1
> Admitting the childish mistakes from the 3rd strongest military - 0

> Again same thing, crying about defence budget and free military equipment - 1
> Admitting the childish mistakes from the 3rd strongest military - 0

Exactly, the fact that the third strongest military has to scramble to get loitering munitions from other countries some two years into the war shows how there's something very crucial that they missed to do in the first 24 hours.

If it was any other competent military; not just USA, even us or China then not a single hangar, oil depot, runway would have survived the first 1 hour. The air-bridge at Hostomel would have been successfully stabilized. And any Ukrainian resistance would have reduced to just smaller, partisan like attack.

People here cry about countries helping Ukraine, defence budget, free military equipment...but fail to understand that all these are happening because Russia let them.

For the sake of drawing parallels
> The Russian attack on Ukraine looks more like Pakistani attack on us during Operation Chengis Khan
> When in reality it should have looked like our attack on Pakistan during Trident and Python

Indian internet warrior community has become very experienced in justifying incompetency thanks to IA/IAF/IN.
Russians are our brothers in that aspect

 

[NerVik]

Your associate Kuntal Biswas made early CAD of 2 Astr-3 SFDR /bay, total 4 AAMs, but pic is angled, the bay is short with big gap in between.
View attachment 19111

He has also made multiple CADs of Astr-3 SFDR BUT with different fin & ramjet intake dimensions.

View attachment 19066
The 3rd one is the only one with bottom view so if we resize it with IWB then still it will be a TIGHT UNSAFE fit of 3 staggered AAMs/bay.
And if we consider 3 staggered Meteors (AAM CAD by artist "AkelaFreedom") then although it is 6" shorter but its intakes & fins seem to be wider & overflows out of bay.
The long intakes make it difficult to stagger.
View attachment 19112

Editing in MS Paint, Photoshop, etc can produce inaccurate errors.
It is best accurate if the artists themselves produce this kind of images. But most of them don't.

How relevant are these CAD and 3d designs made by private parties? Are they just for copium? How will the actual (more like mythical at this point) AMCA design be influenced by what ever designs enthusiasts make? It's not like HAL is prowling through x and DFB for AMCA designs. Why are we focusing on discussing these designs so much?

 

[Spacemarine]

As seen in Ukraine, all the russian "special" weapons are not so potent.
They only are able to take some lands thanks to a huge loss of soldiers and materials. They are obliged to purchase iranian suicide drones and missiles, and north korean soldiers and 152mm shells....

Its great thing and strategy of west that Russia won land by using soldiers and West lost lands by losing soldiers?

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

Guys, we all get carried away sometimes but whatever example we give let's try to turn it around as per topic of thread. Off-topic should go off-thread.
Can AMCA design learn from current wars of Russia-Ukraine or Israel-Arab?

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

How relevant are these CAD and 3d designs made by private parties? Are they just for copium? How will the actual (more like mythical at this point) AMCA design be influenced by what ever designs enthusiasts make? It's not like HAL is prowling through x and DFB for AMCA designs. Why are we focusing on discussing these designs so much?

All these forums lack ABOUT section. Hence every few weeks someone asks this kind of question & everythime i give same answer:
Time pass, time pass & only time pass, that's what casual chat forums is about for enthusiasts, not for R&D.
Some like financial & business aspect, some like politics/geopilitics, some like strategy & tactics, some like history, some like technical.
"A pic is worth 1000 words" hence the CADs, diagrams, pics. There are entire websites to showcase imagination & talent, like Artstation, Turbosquid, Deviantart, etc.
Please tell us what aspect(s) you like.

 

[Ayan Barat]

Can AMCA design learn from current wars of Russia-Ukraine or Israel-Arab?

Absolutely.
We can definitely integrated multiple features based on the observation we've from Israel-Arab and Russia-Ukraine conflict like controlling UAVs, having stealth ARMs, sub-100lbs munitions that increase magazine depth while reducing collateral damage, stealth Cruise Missile that can be carried on external store without increasing the RCS significantly, variant of SAAW with PRH seeker and what not.

But remember this message, that had irked you so much...

There's a mile or two between our wishful thinking and the level of innovation our MIC can come up with.

...so yeah, none of that is going to happen

T-64/72/80/90 from 1965, Leopard 2 from 1980, Abrams from 1985 and Ariete from 1994 are using smoothbore main guns. Tell me what did we learn from all these while designing Arjun that entered service in 2004?

"A pic is worth 1000 words" hence the CADs

Yes, can't agree more. But if that CAD is not from some official source like an University, defence company, laboratory or military then those 1000 words are just gibberish

There are entire websites to showcase imagination & talent, like Artstation, Turbosquid, Deviantart, etc.

Try to find out how many of those talented designer at artstation have ever filed a patent for their ideas. Even they themselves know how much merit their ideas hold in the real-world.

Please don't ditch Geeta Press Ramayan for Adipurush just because it has more graphics.