AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft

[Bhartiya Sainik]

That is so misleading. EU was made to loose their manifacturing prowess very strategically. SO that they can become a good market to sell stuff, This is very evident in their decreasing Naval assets. It is unrelated to Russian production. China has devloped on the other hand sufficient threat perception for EU to be scared. the individual countries in EU don't have sufficient resources to go for their own aircraft devlopement, quite the drama happened with eurofighter, we are yet to see how successful that FCAS/GCAP comes out. EU is declining in their capacity to be self-reliant
point to be noted here is every country that imported better fighters instead of getting their own now is at the mercy of their overlords. UK, Israel, Germany all immported F-35.
Israel had strong base devloped in Lavi but no one is talking about newer GEn tech now. same with UK. why?
China who invested in j10/j7 by buying Lavi research from Israel despite its shortcomings now stand at much better level than so called EU who have history of aircraft devlopement.(Now they can only badmouth Chinese like us claiming half their stuff is copied)

Focussing only on 1 sentence can be misunderstanding. It is an observation & opinion about past, like an alternate reality, could be inaccurate but "misleading" is a very hostile & accusing word. You might have better knowledge on their economy, politics, etc but I've also watched many of their documentaries of EF-2000, Rafale. I'm aware that France & UK are historical rivals & their industrial colaborations had turmoil.
So from a tech PoV i also said that "Or at least a stealthy geometric version of EF-2000 & Rafale can be easily imagined". Engineers thinking something is 1 thing & their bosses approving it is another thing.
But now they intend to make something much better. Time/Evolution doesn't stop. So something sometime will defintely come out of FCAS & GCAP ultimately, especially when they have historical experience. Almost every project has ups & downs, disagreements.
They are NATO. China & Russia both are obvious concerns for them.
Which country has 100% self reliance on a complex projects & if yes then how many projects? NATO countries always shared education, technology, research & resources.
And IMO it is still possible that USA will develop a smaller, less capable exportable NGAD, a 6gen JSF.

Technology imported is technology lost..
we could have devloped our industry in 30 years but our policies oursourced manifacturing to China. I think you are not looking deeper when China grew at our expense by building their capacity. We were only focused on IT side which gave us good results but defense products require technological advancements in all fields not one or two. Political leadership is to be blamed here instead of private players who were thrown under the bus in face if Chinese dumping policies. Even now our leadership refused to tax chinese steel, when they are denying us technology by banning relocation of plants.
HAL,DRDO,ADA have monopoly because they are the only survivers of open markets where every other country leaveraged their money and experience against our newly born, yet to mature private players. Like a step father GOI threw this newborn players in the arena of global warriors without second thought. OFC only public sector survives such cruelty.

Yes, Defence require all kinds of R&D. I'm IT guy so i gave that example. People from other streams can give their domain example - mechanical, electrical, electronics, chemical & metallurgical, etc. A journalist or a person following geopilitics can share that aspect.
It is obvious that stalling R&D & fuelling imports happens by govt. decision only. But Defence projects is collective effort by GoI/MoD + DoD/PSUs + Armed forces. So for a regular citizen it is impossible to investigate like a detective where exactly is/are choke point(s). Some members are defenders & Avengers of different bodies of GoI/MoD/DoD, they may be having friends, family, relative in there & don't like hearing a word against those bodies even if it is true. Hence being a techie i stick to tech side & raise generic concerns over end results, timeline & global tech PoV.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

IWB versions of ARMs (Anti Radiation Missiles):
Kh-58UShKE, 650 Kg, 4.2-4.8m long, 380-400 mm diameter, 149 Kg warhead, 250 Km range, Mach 3.6
AGM-88G AARGM-ER, 467 Kg, 13'4/4.06m long, 292mm diameter, 68 Kg warhead, 300 Km range, Mach 2.9
But Rudram-1 cannot fit in AMCA'a IWB.
Rudram-1, 600 Kg, 18'/5.5m long, 340+/-mm diameter, 55 Kg warhead, 150-200 Km range, Mach 2
Rudram-2 & 3 are going to be even bigger.
If DoD makes IWB version of Rudram, it will make AMCA a dangerous SAM hunter.
There were Ramjet version missiles tested earlier but AARGM-ER uses modified solid fuel rocket motor.

View attachment 21731

After potential stealthy SAM hunter, AMCA has potential to engage naval & other surface targets also from stand-off distance.
If we compare some present weapons like AGM-158A JASSM, JSM/NSM, Storm-Shadow/SCALP-EG, Taurus KEPD-350, SOM-J, etc then they're still bigger than IWB, but they can be scaled down.

Below is example of JASSM & JSM with their original dimension compared to 4.2m long IWB:



But their adjusted size variants are being integrated in F-35. Similar weapons can be developed for AMCA too.

 

[Asmodeus]

I didn't mean to be hostile, it as purely for arguement purpose. I guess I am not good with words.
I am not aware that NATO share technology, I could be wrong though. The reason they do joint programs is they lack the funds/resources to do it solo like Russia/China/US. It is their weakness that they cannot mentain diverse fleet. It is a given that enemy will find your secrets/weakness during war and depending on a single platform like F-35/Eurofighter or even NGAD will prove to be fatal. Especially when they want to collectively go to war (won't be able to replenish as fast)
Russ with lesser GDP fielding 5th gen whatever it lacks is a much bigger achievement than partly producing F-35. Researching 5th gen and actually flying are very diff things. There was a case where Australian F-35 couln't even lock onto US assets, when Aussies went to modified it they were denied codes. I heard UK f-35 require codes before each sortie. This is what it means to be import dependent, Our IAF guys are playing it casually by saying technology delayed is technology denied. That is simply to shift the blame onto PSU's and import more.

 

[Asmodeus]

View: https://youtu.be/yvEEAnDRNLg?si=O7HbhgFHawIOykC8

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

After potential stealthy SAM hunter, AMCA has potential to engage naval & other surface targets also from stand-off distance.
If we compare some present weapons like AGM-158A JASSM, JSM/NSM, Storm-Shadow/SCALP-EG, Taurus KEPD-350, SOM-J, etc then they're still bigger than IWB, but they can be scaled down.

Below is example of JASSM & JSM with their original dimension compared to 4.2m long IWB:

View attachment 23132

But their adjusted size variants are being integrated in F-35. Similar weapons can be developed for AMCA too.

View attachment 23133

@SKC @Suryavanshi , any online mod/admin
The 3rd pic has become attachment rather than embedded pic. I couldn't edit 7 correct it. Can you guys make it embedded? Thanks.

 

[vampyrbladez]

Turkey is going with France for the FCAS program.

Türkiye has expressed interest in contributing to the Future Combat Air System (SCAF/FCAS), a next-generation fighter jet program led by France, Germany and Spain.

https://www.turkiyetoday.com/turkiye/turkiye-expresses-interest-in-future-combat-air-system-french-senate-report-114320/#:~:text=T%C3%BCrkiye's%20interest%20in%20SCAF%20comes,than%20continue%20Franco%2DBritish%20cooperation.


View: https://x.com/Defence_Turk/status/1886008962589352290?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1886008962589352290%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=

India is collaborating with France for the 5th generation engine for AMCA and Safran has already established a plan to open a facility to design said engine.

Safran Data Systems, a subsidiary of Safran, has opened a new office in Chennai.

The company said in a press release that the facility would be a hub for design and development and address the surge in demand within the sector. It added that the strategic expansion would also allow Safran to tap into Chennai’s pool of engineering capabilities.

https://theprint.in/defence/frances...ighter-amca-expands-india-operations/2312842/

Are we designing the new engine for Turkey's jets under FCAS?

 

[randombully]

Turkey is going with France for the FCAS program.


https://www.turkiyetoday.com/turkiye/turkiye-expresses-interest-in-future-combat-air-system-french-senate-report-114320/#:~:text=T%C3%BCrkiye's%20interest%20in%20SCAF%20comes,than%20continue%20Franco%2DBritish%20cooperation.


View: https://x.com/Defence_Turk/status/1886008962589352290?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1886008962589352290%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=

India is collaborating with France for the 5th generation engine for AMCA and Safran has already established a plan to open a facility to design said engine.


https://theprint.in/defence/frances...ighter-amca-expands-india-operations/2312842/

Are we designing the new engine for Turkey's jets under FCAS?

From what I know, the engine for amca will be a 5th gen one, like f35.
Not a adaptive cycle one.
Now about fcas, even design is not finalised so can't say what engine it will feature.

Though high chance France would want Turkey to be a partner both for funding reason and production no. Reason, but "germany" may object.
Also can guarantee chinese 6th gen will enter service before fcas and even gcap will.

 

[Operatorr]

 

[Spitfire IX]

From what I know, the engine for amca will be a 5th gen one, like f35.
Not a adaptive cycle one.
Now about fcas, even design is not finalised so can't say what engine it will feature.

Though high chance France would want Turkey to be a partner both for funding reason and production no. Reason, but "germany" may object.
Also can guarantee chinese 6th gen will enter service before fcas and even gcap will.

I guess that no new partner can be added to FCAS without all existing partners agreeing.

What about joining GCAP - would any member object as strongly as one of the FCAS partners? Perhaps it is better to wait to see how FCAS and GCAP progress before trying to join either. At the moment GCAP looks like a more solid proposition than FCAS does. I can see France going its own way unless Germany and Spain agree to France controlling engine and airframe development and production of both.

 

[Operatorr]

From what I know, the engine for amca will be a 5th gen one, like f35.
Not a adaptive cycle one.
Now about fcas, even design is not finalised so can't say what engine it will feature.

Though high chance France would want Turkey to be a partner both for funding reason and production no. Reason, but "germany" may object.
Also can guarantee chinese 6th gen will enter service before fcas and even gcap will.

Why are they calling this a 6th-gen jet? Adaptive cycle engines are what truly set 6th-gen apart from 5th-gen, and during its first flight, it was clearly using a regular engine—you can tell from the smoke trail it left behind.

 

[randombully]

View attachment 23915
Why are they calling this a 6th-gen jet? Adaptive cycle engines are what truly set 6th-gen apart from 5th-gen, and during its first flight, it was clearly using a regular engine—you can tell from the smoke trail it left behind.

It's a 6th gen "airframe".
And I expect these(especially larger j36) to enter service around 2035.
By that time all the "future" 6th gen tech will developed by china( engine could be exception, don't know if they can develop them by 2035 but work on chinese adaptive cycle engine has begun , but again if they can still get enough thrust and power from current 3 engine set ups to fulfill future needs then good enough).

Engines are just a component, a powersource.
Why do you need adaptive cycle engine? It's not just adaptive cycle, these engines are highly efficient and powerful for their size, the adaptive cycle of the engine helps redistribute power at lower speeds to power electronics also to operate more efficiently at lower speeds, and then Change the cycle to prioritise thrust for higher speeds.
But what if you can get enough thrust and electrical power while fulfilling range and endurance from the current set up already?

 

[randombully]

I guess that no new partner can be added to FCAS without all existing partners agreeing.

What about joining GCAP - would any member object as strongly as one of the FCAS partners? Perhaps it is better to wait to see how FCAS and GCAP progress before trying to join either. At the moment GCAP looks like a more solid proposition than FCAS does. I can see France going its own way unless Germany and Spain agree to France controlling engine and airframe development and production of both.

We aren't joining any program.
The development of jv for future amca engine is separate matter, though technologies developed from it can be used in fcas engine if we go with France.

 

[DancingPeacock]

View attachment 23915
Why are they calling this a 6th-gen jet? Adaptive cycle engines are what truly set 6th-gen apart from 5th-gen, and during its first flight, it was clearly using a regular engine—you can tell from the smoke trail it left behind.

Hmm. From what I learnt after reading through gazillion of forums, the chinese haven't reached the 5th-Gen yet like F-135 or F-119 forget about 6th-Gen. Sure they have mastered 4th-Gen. About 6th-Gen, the Primary factor is all aspect stealth. Initially this model looked like it had folding tail. But recent photographs disproved that and showed it has some wingtip control mechanism rather than flaps seen on J-36. I don't know how that can control yaw in extreme maneuverability scenarios. The J-36 is seen akin to a Air to Air Interdictor sniping enemy planes but the J-50 seems to be the 6th-Gen mainframe backbone "Fighter" per se. Whether the PLAAF accepts the reduced maneuverability or such reduced maneuverability would be the norm with USA even is another thing.

 

[randombully]

Hmm. From what I learnt after reading through gazillion of forums, the chinese haven't reached the 5th-Gen yet like F-135 or F-119 forget about 6th-Gen. Sure they have mastered 4th-Gen. About 6th-Gen, the Primary factor is all aspect stealth. Initially this model looked like it had folding tail. But recent photographs disproved that and showed it has some wingtip control mechanism rather than flaps seen on J-36. I don't know how that can control yaw in extreme maneuverability scenarios. The J-36 is seen akin to a Air to Air Interdictor sniping enemy planes but the J-50 seems to be the 6th-Gen mainframe backbone "Fighter" per se. Whether the PLAAF accepts the reduced maneuverability or such reduced maneuverability would be the norm with USA even is another thing.

You should clarify that when you mention 5th gen you are talking about engine generation, not fighter generation.
And about j36, it has big enough weapons way to carry stand off land attack and anti ship munitions.
It's primarly designed as a long Range strike fighter-bomber and command centre, but like every other fighter it will be multirole and can be used other missions to like air to air role, long range patrol etc.

 

[Operatorr]

It's a 6th gen "airframe".
And I expect these(especially larger j36) to enter service around 2035.
By that time all the "future" 6th gen tech will developed by china( engine could be exception, don't know if they can develop them by 2035 but work on chinese adaptive cycle engine has begun , but again if they can still get enough thrust and power from current 3 engine set ups to fulfill future needs then good enough).

Engines are just a component, a powersource.
Why do you need adaptive cycle engine? It's not just adaptive cycle, these engines are highly efficient and powerful for their size, the adaptive cycle of the engine helps redistribute power at lower speeds to power electronics also to operate more efficiently at lower speeds, and then Change the cycle to prioritise thrust for higher speeds.
But what if you can get enough thrust and electrical power while fulfilling range and endurance from the current set up already?

they cant even make a jet engine on par with ruskies bro how do you even expect china to make a 6th gen engine before 2035

 

[DancingPeacock]

You should clarify that when you mention 5th gen you are talking about engine generation, not fighter generation.
And about j36, it has big enough weapons way to carry stand off land attack and anti ship munitions.
It's primarly designed as a long Range strike fighter-bomber and command centre, but like every other fighter it will be multirole and can be used other missions to like air to air role, long range patrol etc.

F-135 and F-119 are engines. They sure have mastered the airframe aspect- aka all aspect Stealth with those two airframes J-36 and J-50.

 

[randombully]

they cant even make a jet engine on par with ruskies bro how do you even expect china to make a 6th gen engine before 2035

Because jet engine is one of the if not "The" Hardest tech to master, and they did create successful 4th gen engine( albet still worse than western 4th gen) but they are pouring billions of dollars worth of money and constantly developing better versions, and just like every other tech, the starting is slow and it gets progressively faster, chinese have develop a base successfuly and they have money, intention and will to develop leap directly into 6th gen engine, which given previous track recods is highly possible by 2035.

And they have caught up with other 5th gen tech.
Jet engine Is the only tech tech where china still lacks behind west significantly.

 

[helin]

they cant even make a jet engine on par with ruskies bro how do you even expect china to make a 6th gen engine before 2035

China now has WS 15, WS19

 

[Operatorr]

China now has WS 15, WS19

Not even 13 minutes and a chinese is already here

 

[randombully]

China now has WS 15, WS19

Ws 19 developed? Completely?