DRDO and PSUs

[liberalredditor]

Why it was reduced from 130KN to 120KN?

But it has been increased from 5th gen to 6th gen engine

 

[randombully]

Why it was reduced from 130KN to 120KN?

There was no plan for 130kn engine, but a 140kn is another engine that is planned to be made based on the tech of amca engine.
The 140kn engine is for future upgrades of su30mki and also potentially for AHCA.
( though IMHO, 140kn will be upgraded to ~160+kn thrust engine, but the time work starts on it)
Amca engine was supposed to be 110kn, it's preformance is upgraded to 120kn now.
Second, the materials and performance planned for 120kn engine will be higher than 5th gen engine like early 5th gen f119 engine if f22, or current f135 engine of f35, hence drdo chief called it a 6th gen engine, but there is no news/Info if it will have adaptive cycle architecture or not.

As for adaptive cycle, many mistakenly associate it with higher electrical power generation, but na you can have higher electrical power generation using current non adaptive architecture too.
Adaptive cycle tech mainly helps in efficiency( more range, loitering time etc) and thermal management/lower ir signature of exhaustc plume( positive byproduct of efficiency), the efficiency is increased by increased bypass ratio, so more cool air that also helps in thermal management, and that cool air can also somewhat help in carrying away the heat generated by electronics, so can also help in cooling of electrical systems.

 

[randombully]

There was no plan for 130kn engine, but a 140kn is another engine that is planned to be made based on the tech of amca engine.
The 140kn engine is for future upgrades of su30mki and also potentially for AHCA.
( though IMHO, 140kn will be upgraded to ~160+kn thrust engine, but the time work starts on it)
Amca engine was supposed to be 110kn, it's preformance is upgraded to 120kn now.
Second, the materials and performance planned for 120kn engine will be higher than 5th gen engine like early 5th gen f119 engine if f22, or current f135 engine of f35, hence drdo chief called it a 6th gen engine, but there is no news/Info if it will have adaptive cycle architecture or not.

As for adaptive cycle, many mistakenly associate it with higher electrical power generation, but na you can have higher electrical power generation using current non adaptive architecture too.
Adaptive cycle tech mainly helps in efficiency( more range, loitering time etc) and thermal management/lower ir signature of exhaustc plume( positive byproduct of efficiency), the efficiency is increased by increased bypass ratio, so more cool air that also helps in thermal management, and that cool air can also somewhat help in carrying away the heat generated by electronics, so can also help in cooling of electrical systems.

This also details, in recent "reports" that US navy was not considering adaptive cycle tech for its 6th gen fighter.
I already told about the benifits of adaptive cycle.
So if current f135 style architecture can fulfill the range and endurance requirements of US navy for its 6th gen fighter, then there is not much benifit left of a adaptive cycle engine that will be more expensive in both acquisition and maintinence cost, along with more maintenance extensive( lower availability rate) due to increased mechanical complexity.
I already told about the misconception that next gen fighters need adaptive cycle tech for massive electrical power generation needs.

As for the lower IR signature and helping in cooling of electronics, there are other methods that can be used.


So adaptive cycle tech, while next gen, is not as game changing and not a defining feature of 6th gen.

 

[fire starter]

View: https://x.com/ShivAroor/status/1928412540616233256?t=orq3C_0ZUcwkgljtSt5VdQ&s=19

 

[FalconSlayers]

View: https://x.com/ShivAroor/status/1928412540616233256?t=orq3C_0ZUcwkgljtSt5VdQ&s=19

1. Would the Russians ToT Zircon missile tech for the Joint Venture?
2. What's the need when we have our own project Vishnu based upon our own functional scramjet?

 

[randombully]

1. Would the Russians ToT Zircon missile tech for the Joint Venture?
2. What's the need when we have our own project Vishnu based upon our own functional scramjet?

AFAIK zircon is rocket powered and not scramjet powered.
But still just as deadly, more flexible flight trajectory choices,bigger warhead, but lot more heavier compared to if it were scramjet based.

 

[Gyyaan]

AFAIK zircon is rocket powered and not scramjet powered.
But still just as deadly, more flexible flight trajectory choices,bigger warhead, but lot more heavier compared to if it were scramjet based.

Zircon is the OG hypersonic missile.
I don't think just because the top is covered in a brahmosesque cover it's not.
The booster will have to push it past high supersonic speed so that scramjet starts working.

 

[randombully]

Zircon is the OG hypersonic missile.
I don't think just because the top is covered in a brahmosesque cover it's not.View attachment 37852
The booster will have to push it past high supersonic speed so that scramjet starts working.

Na, I'm saying it based on talks I had with a Russian junior engineer working for russian mod on a forum.


Allegedly, these first two are flight trajectories of zircon missile he shared, a depressed hcm like trajectory with ~1000km range, a mix of ballistic+ cruise for more range, and quasi ballistic trajectory for even more range(~4000km)

And in these later pics, it was taken from a Russian new channel which was present to see and record the launching of zircon

 

[randombully]

Zircon is the OG hypersonic missile.
I don't think just because the top is covered in a brahmosesque cover it's not.View attachment 37852
The booster will have to push it past high supersonic speed so that scramjet starts working.

As a bonus here's shaurya missile compared to zircon.
Shaurya also has a depressed hcm like trajectory with max range of ~800km, and quasi ballistic trajectory with higher range.

Shaurya surfaces as India’s underwater nuclear missile: New “hybrid” technology more advanced than China’s or Pakistan’s

www.ajaishukla.com

Here's the article from 2010.
*******Shaurya surfaces as India’s underwater nuclear missile: New “hybrid” technology more advanced than China’s or Pakistan’s
By Ajai Shukla
Defexpo 2010, New Delhi

The country’s top defence scientist has, for the first time, revealed that India’s new Shaurya missile, which can carry a one-ton nuclear warhead over a distance of 750 kilometers, is specially designed to be fired from Indian submarines, and could form the crucial third leg of India’s nuclear deterrent.

If launched from a submarine off the China coast, it is capable of reaching many of China’s major cities, including Beijing, Nanjing and Shanghai.

Air and land-based nuclear weapons are delivered to their targets by fighter aircraft and ballistic missiles respectively. Since these can be knocked out by an enemy first strike, the most reliable nuclear deterrent has traditionally been underwater, missiles hidden in a submarine.

Dr VK Saraswat, the DRDO chief and Scientific Advisor to the Defence Minister, revealed to Business Standard at the ongoing Defexpo 2010, “We have designed the Shaurya so that it can be launched from under water as easily as from land. The gas-filled canister that houses the missile fits easily into a submarine. The underwater leg of the nuclear triad needs to be totally reliable and needs a state-of-the-art missile.”

India’s undersea deterrent has so far revolved around the K-15 ballistic missile, built with significant help from Russia. The K-15 was to equip the INS Arihant, India’s lone nuclear-powered submarine, which is being constructed in Visakhapatnam. But now, after rigorous underwater testing, the Shaurya could be the mainstay of Arihant’s arsenal.

“The Shaurya was developed from ground up as a submarine-capable missile”, confirms Dr Prahlada, the top DRDO scientist responsible for liaising with the military. “Every piece of technology for fitting it in a submarine is already in place.”

Shortly before the Defexpo 2010, Dr Saraswat had publicly stated that India’s missile technology was ahead of China’s and Pakistan’s.

Now top DRDO scientists have revealed that the Shaurya is not a ballistic missile, as it has been thought to be; it is actually a hypersonic cruise missile, which never leaves the atmosphere. A ballistic missile is like a stone being lobbed towards a target. Rockets toss it upwards and towards the target; after the rocket burns out, gravity pulls the missile warhead down towards the target. Buffeted by wind and re-entry forces, accuracy is a problem; and, since the ballistic missile’s path is predictable, shooting it down is relatively easy.

The Shaurya has none of these issues. Its solid-fuel, two-stage rocket accelerates the missile to six times the speed of sound before it reaches an altitude of 40 kilometers (125,000 feet), after which it levels out and cruises towards the target, powered by its onboard fuel. While ballistic missiles cannot correct their course midway, the Shaurya is an intelligent missile. Onboard navigation computers kick in near the target, guiding the missile to the target and eliminating errors that inevitably creep in during its turbulent journey.
"I would say the Shaurya a hybrid propulsion missile”, says Dr Saraswat. “Like a ballistic missile, it is powered by solid fuel. And, like a cruise missile, it can guide itself right up to the target.”[/URL]

 

[jaijaganath]

https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/india/we-ll-bury-you-in-orders-defence-secretary-urges-private-sector-to-invest-in-r-d-13060199.html

Babus are probably biggest hypocrites on this planet

 

[LastMythin]

https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/india/we-ll-bury-you-in-orders-defence-secretary-urges-private-sector-to-invest-in-r-d-13060199.html

Babus are probably biggest hypocrites on this planet

he meant to say the baboons will bury them court cases and corruption

 

[Gyyaan]

As a bonus here's shaurya missile compared to zircon.
Shaurya also has a depressed hcm like trajectory with max range of ~800km, and quasi ballistic trajectory with higher range.

A good read.

Shaurya surfaces as India’s underwater nuclear missile: New “hybrid” technology more advanced than China’s or Pakistan’s

www.ajaishukla.com

mokahete
Military
NPOMash 3M22 Zircon Hypersonic Missile (4 Viewers)
Thread starterbobbymike Start date18 March 2016 Tagscold war ii russian federation
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#361
Josh_TN said:
I still doubt zircon is purely rocket powered. Even assuming liquid fuel, look at size and weight of air launched missiles like KH-22. Now imagine how much the first stage external booster would have to struggle with load. An air breathing engine is always going to be more mass efficient and every Soviet/Russian surface launched supersonic missile I can think of was an air breather. It would be quite surprising if Zircon was a purely rocket driven missile. Additionally , liquid fuel would raise a lot of safety issues for ship/sub use. The Russians have used liquid fueled SLBMs in the past but I do not believe for some decades as the USSR; the USN never accepted the practice with early exception of Regulous.
Na, I'm of the belief that it uses solid fuel.

Well large part of my believing zircon to be rocket sustained is based on this Indian missile that called "Shaurya" as mentioned before.
'Shourya'_missile_test_fired_on_November_12,_2008.jpg_e87e906a-07a4-11eb-adc0-f7cc04e39ce3.jpeg
111144395.2.jpg
Length~10m, width~0.74m, weight 6+tons.
Uses solid fuel, two stage missile.
www.ajaishukla.com
Shaurya surfaces as India’s underwater nuclear missile: New “hybrid” technology more advanced than China’s or Pakistan’s
www.ajaishukla.com www.ajaishukla.com

Here's the article from 2010.
*******Shaurya surfaces as India’s underwater nuclear missile: New “hybrid” technology more advanced than China’s or Pakistan’s
By Ajai Shukla
Defexpo 2010, New Delhi

The country’s top defence scientist has, for the first time, revealed that India’s new Shaurya missile, which can carry a one-ton nuclear warhead over a distance of 750 kilometers, is specially designed to be fired from Indian submarines, and could form the crucial third leg of India’s nuclear deterrent.

If launched from a submarine off the China coast, it is capable of reaching many of China’s major cities, including Beijing, Nanjing and Shanghai.

Air and land-based nuclear weapons are delivered to their targets by fighter aircraft and ballistic missiles respectively. Since these can be knocked out by an enemy first strike, the most reliable nuclear deterrent has traditionally been underwater, missiles hidden in a submarine.

Dr VK Saraswat, the DRDO chief and Scientific Advisor to the Defence Minister, revealed to Business Standard at the ongoing Defexpo 2010, “We have designed the Shaurya so that it can be launched from under water as easily as from land. The gas-filled canister that houses the missile fits easily into a submarine. The underwater leg of the nuclear triad needs to be totally reliable and needs a state-of-the-art missile.”

India’s undersea deterrent has so far revolved around the K-15 ballistic missile, built with significant help from Russia. The K-15 was to equip the INS Arihant, India’s lone nuclear-powered submarine, which is being constructed in Visakhapatnam. But now, after rigorous underwater testing, the Shaurya could be the mainstay of Arihant’s arsenal.

“The Shaurya was developed from ground up as a submarine-capable missile”, confirms Dr Prahlada, the top DRDO scientist responsible for liaising with the military. “Every piece of technology for fitting it in a submarine is already in place.”

Shortly before the Defexpo 2010, Dr Saraswat had publicly stated that India’s missile technology was ahead of China’s and Pakistan’s.

Now top DRDO scientists have revealed that the Shaurya is not a ballistic missile, as it has been thought to be; it is actually a hypersonic cruise missile, which never leaves the atmosphere. A ballistic missile is like a stone being lobbed towards a target. Rockets toss it upwards and towards the target; after the rocket burns out, gravity pulls the missile warhead down towards the target. Buffeted by wind and re-entry forces, accuracy is a problem; and, since the ballistic missile’s path is predictable, shooting it down is relatively easy.

The Shaurya has none of these issues. Its solid-fuel, two-stage rocket accelerates the missile to six times the speed of sound before it reaches an altitude of 40 kilometers (125,000 feet), after which it levels out and cruises towards the target, powered by its onboard fuel. While ballistic missiles cannot correct their course midway, the Shaurya is an intelligent missile. Onboard navigation computers kick in near the target, guiding the missile to the target and eliminating errors that inevitably creep in during its turbulent journey.

The Shaurya, say DRDO sources, will strike within 20-30 metres of its target after travelling 750 kilometres.

Conventional cruise missiles, like the American Tomahawk and the Indo-Russian , offer similar accuracy. But their air-breathing engines carry them along slowly, rendering them vulnerable to enemy aircraft and missiles. The Shaurya’s solid-fuel, air-independent engine propels it along at hypersonic speeds, leaving enemy fighters and missiles far behind.

“I would say the Shaurya a hybrid propulsion missile”, says Dr Saraswat. “Like a ballistic missile, it is powered by solid fuel. And, like a cruise missile, it can guide itself right up to the target.”

Making the Shaurya even more capable is its ability to manoeuvre, following a twisting path to the target that makes it very difficult to shoot it down. In contrast, a ballistic missile is predictable; its trajectory gives away its target and its path to it."*******
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#362
mokahete said:
Na, I'm of the belief that it uses solid fuel.

Well large part of my believing zircon to be rocket sustained is based on this Indian missile that called "Shaurya" as mentioned before.
View attachment 767454View attachment 767455
View attachment 767456
Length~10m, width~0.74m, weight 6+tons.
Uses solid fuel, two stage missile.
www.ajaishukla.com
Shaurya surfaces as India’s underwater nuclear missile: New “hybrid” technology more advanced than China’s or Pakistan’s
www.ajaishukla.com www.ajaishukla.com

Here's the article from 2010.
*******Shaurya surfaces as India’s underwater nuclear missile: New “hybrid” technology more advanced than China’s or Pakistan’s
By Ajai Shukla
Defexpo 2010, New Delhi

The country’s top defence scientist has, for the first time, revealed that India’s new Shaurya missile, which can carry a one-ton nuclear warhead over a distance of 750 kilometers, is specially designed to be fired from Indian submarines, and could form the crucial third leg of India’s nuclear deterrent.

If launched from a submarine off the China coast, it is capable of reaching many of China’s major cities, including Beijing, Nanjing and Shanghai.

Air and land-based nuclear weapons are delivered to their targets by fighter aircraft and ballistic missiles respectively. Since these can be knocked out by an enemy first strike, the most reliable nuclear deterrent has traditionally been underwater, missiles hidden in a submarine.

Dr VK Saraswat, the DRDO chief and Scientific Advisor to the Defence Minister, revealed to Business Standard at the ongoing Defexpo 2010, “We have designed the Shaurya so that it can be launched from under water as easily as from land. The gas-filled canister that houses the missile fits easily into a submarine. The underwater leg of the nuclear triad needs to be totally reliable and needs a state-of-the-art missile.”

India’s undersea deterrent has so far revolved around the K-15 ballistic missile, built with significant help from Russia. The K-15 was to equip the INS Arihant, India’s lone nuclear-powered submarine, which is being constructed in Visakhapatnam. But now, after rigorous underwater testing, the Shaurya could be the mainstay of Arihant’s arsenal.

“The Shaurya was developed from ground up as a submarine-capable missile”, confirms Dr Prahlada, the top DRDO scientist responsible for liaising with the military. “Every piece of technology for fitting it in a submarine is already in place.”

Shortly before the Defexpo 2010, Dr Saraswat had publicly stated that India’s missile technology was ahead of China’s and Pakistan’s.

Now top DRDO scientists have revealed that the Shaurya is not a ballistic missile, as it has been thought to be; it is actually a hypersonic cruise missile, which never leaves the atmosphere. A ballistic missile is like a stone being lobbed towards a target. Rockets toss it upwards and towards the target; after the rocket burns out, gravity pulls the missile warhead down towards the target. Buffeted by wind and re-entry forces, accuracy is a problem; and, since the ballistic missile’s path is predictable, shooting it down is relatively easy.

The Shaurya has none of these issues. Its solid-fuel, two-stage rocket accelerates the missile to six times the speed of sound before it reaches an altitude of 40 kilometers (125,000 feet), after which it levels out and cruises towards the target, powered by its onboard fuel. While ballistic missiles cannot correct their course midway, the Shaurya is an intelligent missile. Onboard navigation computers kick in near the target, guiding the missile to the target and eliminating errors that inevitably creep in during its turbulent journey.
"I would say the Shaurya a hybrid propulsion missile”, says Dr Saraswat. “Like a ballistic missile, it is powered by solid fuel. And, like a cruise missile, it can guide itself right up to the target.”

Shaurya is a Q-BM much different from HGV or HCM.
It has a quasi ballistic trajectory where is goes at hypersonic speed at the heights lower than 50 Km IIRC and we don't know about the ability to maneuver while going in the depressed trajectory that's why it's not classified as Hypersonic missile.
I remember reading somewhere about Shaurya managed heat during Hypersonic flight and it was different from how HCMs worked around heat and plasma formation during flight something along the lines of heat distribution along the entire body or rotation I don't remember exactly.
Don't know about Zircon being a Q-BM though.