DRDO and PSU's

[Pundit Pikachu]

It's a tragedy in India where the trials take painstaking much many years than the development and rollout of product itself. Just name any Indian product in recent time and the trial period, though magically foreign emergency imports complete their trials surprisingly fast.

QRSAM is yet another example, poor thing's in testing since 2017 and even by the most optimistic standards will not be getting any orders before 2027, can you imagine 10 years of just testing, things go obsolete in that much time, QRSAM will not be getting operationalised anytime before 2030, 15 fuckin years after the project sanction,

Maybe babus aren't using Composites and such, hence the weight is too heavy. I mean in DRDO you have certain labs that are very good and top notch well updated and others doing shitty work like ADE. Under which lab does this Missile comes?

Who knows, what sorts of fu*kups have they done this time,
IMO the problem isn't with the missile per say, 14 kg is not that outrageous, the thing that's bugging me is the CLU+missile tube + tripod unit, even if you remove the tripod the thing is still overweight

Not to mention the test footage doesn't really invoke any kind of confidence in me, the CLU and missile tube reek of shoddy workmanship to me.

Obviously our system has tripod which should be weighing 5-8kg easily

Even the most sturdy tripod will not weigh over 3 kg

then why keep on asking for more and more gucchi specs, induct blk1 and ask for more in blk2.

I think we all know the reason by this point

Still as far as I remember, orders didn't came before 2022 i believe and first test took place in Dec, 2014. 7 yrs for testing+ordering LSP lot is still very bad. Had it been a very complex product with minimum margin for error, sure but I don't know if anything justifies it.

it's a glide bomb for Christ's sake Russians fuckin developed and even deployed the whole thing in less than a year, what sort of wizardry are we doing that it has taken us 10 fuckin years

 

[karn]

QRSAM is yet another example, poor thing's in testing since 2017 and even by the most optimistic standards will not be getting any orders before 2027, can you imagine 10 years of just testing, things go obsolete in that much time, QRSAM will not be getting operationalised anytime before 2030, 15 fuckin years after the project sanction,

To be fair there were media reports of this system failing basic tests . We all called these hit jobs . Let's atleast have the wherewithal to accept that a system is in development hell and has no customers for it's current state.

 

[fire starter]

Drdo biped robot.

View: https://x.com/manishindiatv/status/1823548996226572700?s=19

 

[fire starter]

India Unveils Lethal 'Swadeshi' Kamikaze Drones With 1,000 Km Range.

The Indian kamikaze drone will be around 2.8 meters long with a wingspan of 3.5 meters, weigh about 120 kg and carry an explosive charge of 25 kilograms.

 

[Noob]

India Unveils Lethal 'Swadeshi' Kamikaze Drones With 1,000 Km Range.

The Indian kamikaze drone will be around 2.8 meters long with a wingspan of 3.5 meters, weigh about 120 kg and carry an explosive charge of 25 kilograms.
View attachment 6466

Which company?

Edit- oo it's NAL just noticed great when is the first prototype anything on that?

 

[Hawkeye]

View: https://youtu.be/nK8D8sLeIjI?si=hjTE4kHF60jWcfMC

There are also part 1,2,3 in the same channel.

Things I noticed-
IAF is calling MRSAM as Shaurya, most likely barak8
Akash NG has been termed as SRSAM by IAF, but it can hit targets upto 80km, same as MRSAM?? Maybe trying not to put two missile systems in same nomenclature as it would then eat into Barak8 MRSAM orders??
QRSAM to acquired by IAF as well

Navy has termed Barak8 as MRSAM as well from earlier LRSAM
Unclear if how many of 3 types of proposed interceptors would be adapted for naval use
Anti ASBM capability to be integral to ASBM as well for fleet defense
But will it be able to do area ABM like SM3, unclear but not likely, would probably need AD2 capability interceptor, so no sea based BMD role for now i guess
The placeholder of ship looks like the proposed Project 18 design as of now, as seen many times before

 

[ezsasa]

Few questions-

Is BDL still one of the maufacturers?
In case a new manufacturer is chosen, are trials done again or maybe a lot is chose for testing accuracy, effectiveness and other parameters?

BDL will continue to be India's premiere weapons manufacturer, so yes. but not for GAURAV LRGB at the moment. they seem to be developing their own variant of LRGB.

for new manufacturer, i am assuming it would have to be redone.

 

[Pundit Pikachu]

Akash NG has been termed as SRSAM by IAF, but it can hit targets upto 80km, same as MRSAM?

Timestamp, where was the range mentioned

 

[Hawkeye]

Timestamp, where was the range mentioned
View attachment 6484

This has been already posted multiple times in the official video of drdo and earlier DFI itself but couldn't find it now, but here's a screenshot.
Logic also dictates that 2 pulse missile with dimensions and weight greater than barak 8 would naturally be able to do more as well.
And why would you induct both QRSAM and Akash NG if it had same range performance as the former. Also airforce doesn't have track and scan on the move requirement for its need unlike army.

 

[ezsasa]

I will give it to you, you are an eternal optimist brother. Hope some of your optimism sees the realization

if something stated as a matter of fact, seems like "optimism" then one should check their baseline.

here the baseline is state of affairs as of 2014-15, i.e before monohar parrikar took up the review of defence acquisition procedure . numbers say domestic MIC has expanded.

in case, in your professional capacity you are not involved in negotiating and executing contracts, these numbers increase when contracts are given and executed.

 

[Fatalis]

Navy has termed Barak8 as MRSAM as well from earlier LRSAM
Unclear if how many of 3 types of proposed interceptors would be adapted for naval use
Anti ASBM capability to be integral to ASBM as well for fleet defense
But will it be able to do area ABM like SM3, unclear but not likely, would probably need AD2 capability interceptor, so no sea based BMD role for now i guess
The placeholder of ship looks like the proposed Project 18 design as of now, as seen many times before

Right now MRSAM is fulfilling both the roles of point defence as well as local area defence. In near future:

1) LRSAM - All 3 variants might be acquired by the IN or just the one with 250 km range. Role will be fleet area defence as well as anti AShBM role. 150 to 250 km range.

2) MRSAM - Local area defence. Role will against anti ship and cruise missiles. 70 km range.

3) VL-SRSAM: Point Defence. 25-50 km range.

AD-1 and AD-2 might be acquired to be used on NGD for ABM role.

@Adm_Kenobi I just have a hunch that IN will go for LRSAM + MRSAM on its PSC instead of MRSAM + VL-SRSAM. What are your views?

 

[Pundit Pikachu]

For f*ck's sake man just induct it already, this thing is in the making for over 10 years now.

This project is a prime example of everything that is wrong with DRDO and Army.

Even after having prior experience with ATGM (from NAG project) it took these nincompoops 10 years to make an ATGM, and it's not even inducted yet.
I fear it will have the same fate as NAG, after completing it's Developmental trial by some miracle, it will fall short in Army trials and improvements would be demanded and the whole fuckin cycle of testing and trials will start all over again

For reference Turks started work on their Man portable ATGM at the same time, and theirs is already inducted in Turkish Land Forces

Here is a timeline of both the project to let you understand the gravity of their Incompetence.

	MPATGM	Karaok
Project Sanction	2015	2016
Testing	2018-2023	2020-22
User Trials	2024- God Knows When	No clear Info
Induction	God knows When	Ordered in 2022

Oh and the worst thing is this thing has the same range as Karaok even though it's Missile+CLU weight is 29kg and Karaok's is 16 kg

Recently found out the reason for the excess weight.
1. The Missile has a cooled seeker(compared to uncooled seeker present on Karaok), this is because IA had asked for MPATGM to be able to operate smoothly in scorching heat of Rajasthan, due to this a cooled seeker was necessary, which increased the weight of the CLU
But honestly even then it's still a bit overweight.

2. IA had asked for a minimum engagement range of 200m, which is very less compared to other ATGMs with minimum engagement range of 500m, this necessitated a more complex design and more testing

However nothing explains the gross Incompetence of taking 6 years in developmental trials alone.
God knows when will user trials end and when will it be ordered in large enough numbers.

Both DRDO and IA are masters of endless snail pace testing

I predict LSP will not be ordered before 2027 and Mass production Wil not start before 2030, meaning it took 15 years to reach from concept to mass production which is just SAD

 

[Clawreed]

Are we going with bmp turret or elbit turret?

View: https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1823656689654227231?t=t0mH4241yNVptsIjtrlKDg&s=19

 

[Hawkeye]

Are we going with bmp turret or elbit turret?

View: https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1823656689654227231?t=t0mH4241yNVptsIjtrlKDg&s=19

It's chosen on the availability of turret you are currently producing in India, which is upgraded bmp2 turret as of now. IA seems plenty happy with it.
When new turret for FICV and NAMICA mk2 starts to roll out, we will see switchover to the these new ones.
We don't really need to concern with this that turret as of now, first let IA come forward and clearly put their requirements of WHAP in numbers and variants required with xyz specs

And to anyone saying MPATGM weight falana dhinkana, here is IA EOI itself, let's not beat the dead horse of weight when clearly it is within limits, they make the reqmts and if they needed less they should have specified less

 

[Vishnugupt]

Astra and QR sams have widely different weights and dimensions. If it isn't close enough like say astra and VL SR sam then there is no point bringing it up.
Ok lets see the actual requirements since it has gone down from 100kmph to 60kmph as per you.

Radar and software are part of the system aren't they . Every AD system is procured as batterys, what is the army going to do with missiles and no radar.

Quick reaction missile induction to be delayed; deficiencies found during trials

Sanctioned in 2014, the project is already running five years behind schedule and corrective measures would be required to meet the operational requirements of the armed forces. Sources aware of the recent trials told ET that deficiencies were observed when it comes to the mobility...

economictimes.indiatimes.com

Surface-to-air missile | DRDO working to fix a few glitches

Some changes suggested by the Army has been incorporated for the missile, being developed by the DRDO, which is a pressing requirement for the Army

www.thehindu.com

(Use 12ft.io to read)


The fact that trials and development are still ongoing lends credence to these reports.

Nobody said that it is a complete failure . The fact is that baboo engineers can take years if not decades to fix "a very minor" issue, how is it the militaries fault.

I know about these paid articles.

Read my post again. Reply my queries.

Also let us know how heavy is the whole system in compared with others ?

 

[karn]

I know about these paid articles.

Read my post again. Reply my queries.

Also let us know how heavy is the whole system in compared with others ?

Why should I ? Where is your source for 60 - 100 kmph on the move requirement ?
Rest is addressed in my post above, if you choose to ignore them that's ok .

 

[fire starter]

View: https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1823733063517659256?t=ggD-ct7XdJlMfqjc4fjMYg&s=19

 

[Kedar]

if something stated as a matter of fact, seems like "optimism" then one should check their baseline.

here the baseline is state of affairs as of 2014-15, i.e before monohar parrikar took up the review of defence acquisition procedure . numbers say domestic MIC has expanded.

in case, in your professional capacity you are not involved in negotiating and executing contracts, these numbers increase when contracts are given and executed.

View attachment 6493

Well, not denying but greatest measure that is accurate is what we are importing and lot of big ticket imports from small arms to aircrafts to engines and transmissions. I understand takes time from lost generations but marketing is to heavy with opaqueness. I just hope if sanctions come along then we don't sit in a stinking dead pond as most everything is imported at component level. My pessimistic attitude has merit. Same in software and much of everything, as others are questioning no clarity on why testing takes so long and never see numbers or scale of manufacturing for an army of our size.

You can quote all numbers and also factor in inflation of rupee and dollar.

 

[Adm_Kenobi]

@Adm_Kenobi I just have a hunch that IN will go for LRSAM + MRSAM on its PSC instead of MRSAM + VL-SRSAM. What are your views?

my views are very radical when it comes to MRSAM on our future combatants.
PG-LRSAM's second stage will be completely made in India, featuring a much better seeker and pulse that is twice the volume of MRSAM due to miniaturised electronics and a slightly larger frame. Will be similar in size to MRSAM at 250mm v/s 225mm, a good replacement. MRSAM has a pK of 0.8 against supersonic cruise missiles, LRSAM's second stage will be able to do better with its new seeker.

I don't quite get your question, do you mean upgrade on existing PSCs or the new ones? VL-SRSAM will be present on both that's confirmed. PG-LRSAM on existing PSCs is under doubt.

 

[Fatalis]

I don't quite get your question, do you mean upgrade on existing PSCs or the new ones? VL-SRSAM will be present on both that's confirmed. PG-LRSAM on existing PSCs is under doubt.

I meant if the IN's current PSC will have MRSAM + VL-SRSAM or they will augment MRSAM with PGLRSAM. Because if only future PSC like NGD and NGD are supposed to have PGLRSAM then the numbers will be very low and MRSAM will continue be our mainstay.