DRDO and PSUs

Granted, but main differentiator again is the main gun put on turret of K9, that CN98 made by Hyundai, not sure if we got ToT for that thing here for some ~100 some number of order

If we want to pave a way for future orders of ATAGS / MGS / TGS whatever in 155mm/52 cal range i think it's better to standardise on single gun design of indigeneous origin and with a revived Bhim SPH project with local engine = DATRAN derated fork, and ATAGS / Bharat-52 gun; will be helpful in pressurising muh genrolzz who're salivating a lot for ATHOS like coyotes

Once the local line by L&T completes remaining orders of K9 Vajra it can be shifted to this new-Bhim SPH derivative; baki toh, it's also question of 'why not'
We did, the gun is now manufacturing fully by L&T, raw materials come from korea.
The gun is capable of firing indian 155mm/52cal artillery shells.


As for indigenous gun, engine etc
We can just put those things on the hull and turret off k9 vajra itself.
 
We did, the gun is now manufacturing fully by L&T, raw materials come from korea.
The gun is capable of firing indian 155mm/52cal artillery shells.


As for indigenous gun, engine etc
We can just put those things on the hull and turret off k9 vajra itself.
Yes It's better to indigenise vajra itself rather than going for new design right now
 
Members might not know but Bhim SPH had much more advanced turret than that of K9 and surprise surprise K9A3 is going to use a similar fully automatic loading like Bhim whereas right now in K9A2, charge has to be loaded separately by loader.

Future is going towards fully automatic unmanned turret in SPHs. So, Bhim will always be better base than K9 will ever be.

Will also help towards developing unmanned and remote operation of SPH.

And again I would like to say that screwdriver product made in India is not indigenous. IDDM is the thing you want.

We will have to go for a new design of Hull and turret for indie SPH keeping in mind of future growth capability.
 
Members might not know but Bhim SPH had much more advanced turret than that of K9 and surprise surprise K9A3 is going to use a similar fully automatic loading like Bhim whereas right now in K9A2, charge has to be loaded separately by loader.

Future is going towards fully automatic unmanned turret in SPHs. So, Bhim will always be better base than K9 will ever be.

Will also help towards developing unmanned and remote operation of SPH.

And again I would like to say that screwdriver product made in India is not indigenous. IDDM is the thing you want.

We will have to go for a new design of Hull and turret for indie SPH keeping in mind of future growth capability.
The thing that doomed Bhim SPH was because it used South Afrikan Denel T5 gun on it, based on Dr. Gerald Bull's GC-45; otherwise yes it was quite advanced - though i'm still not sure if it was given a fully automatic loader in it, as from available info G6 'Rhino' had automatic ammo carousel but a manual loading at breech side, if you have any info on Bhim SPH equipped with fully automatic loader there please share

coming back to Denel; our MoD babudumbs or genrolz or ((someone)) played some games that resulted in 'blacklisting' of that company, and project got stalled even after successful trials 🤷‍♂️

after some years we got K9 Vajra-T here to replace aging 130mm M46 and 105mm Abbot

but we do have a successful artillery in 155mm/52 cal range with ATAGS / Bharat-52 and can very well revive Bhim project on our own without much hurdles of import-embargo
 
The thing that doomed Bhim SPH was because it used South Afrikan Denel T5 gun on it, based on Dr. Gerald Bull's GC-45; otherwise yes it was quite advanced - though i'm still not sure if it was given a fully automatic loader in it, as from available info G6 'Rhino' had automatic ammo carousel but a manual loading at breech side, if you have any info on Bhim SPH equipped with fully automatic loader there please share

coming back to Denel; our MoD babudumbs or genrolz or ((someone)) played some games that resulted in 'blacklisting' of that company, and project got stalled even after successful trials 🤷‍♂️

after some years we got K9 Vajra-T here to replace aging 130mm M46 and 105mm Abbot

but we do have a successful artillery in 155mm/52 cal range with ATAGS / Bharat-52 and can very well revive Bhim project on our own without much hurdles of import-embargo
Here, it would not be wrong to say that T6 turret was their next evolution of G6 system. Denel was one of the OG defence firm of its time, sad that it didn't got the success it deserved.

View: https://youtu.be/vsg13R4xDRo?si=ZCgx_nrGwMne1nFg

Bhim SPH in 2000s was definitely the definition of cutting edge.

Here we have Chad Bhim while people are simping for verging K9 below like it's some next gen sh*t like hypersonic missiles and 5the gen fighter. Even the damn round loading in K9 is not fully automatic.


View: https://youtube.com/shorts/qnMQRFnmtc0?si=KtEst28bRcZvQRlN

One of my biggest gripe wth private cos L&T is also that they have shown and made the bloody K9 almost an indigenous products in minds of many Indians. To say the least, this is blasphemy against Indigenisation. And the only answer for blasphemy is we all know...... Kill any idea of K9 and revive Bhim in new form.
 
Last edited:
Here, it would not be wrong to say that T6 turret was their next evolution of G6 system. Denel was one of the OG defence firm of its time, sad that it didn't got the success it deserved.

View: https://youtu.be/vsg13R4xDRo?si=ZCgx_nrGwMne1nFg

Bhim SPH in 2000s was definitely the definition of cutting edge.

Here we have Chad Bhim while people are simping for verging K9 below like it's some next gen sh*t like hypersonic missiles and 5the gen fighter. Even the damn round loading in K9 is not fully automatic.


View: https://youtube.com/shorts/qnMQRFnmtc0?si=KtEst28bRcZvQRlN

One of my biggest gripe wth private cos L&T is also that they have shown and made the bloody K9 almost an indigenous products in minds of many Indians. To say the least, this is blasphemy against Indigenisation. And the only answer for blasphemy is we all know...... Kill any idea of K9 and revive Bhim in new form.

Thanks for finding the video, quite refreshing to see a rare clip of its operation

after searching about its turret by Denel, on Army Guide, they've written about it extensively


Designation:

T6

Info
Manufacturer:DENEL LAND SYSTEMS, DLS
Product type:Turrets
Name:Turret for the self-propelled artillery system
Designed with Bharat Eath Movers Ltd.
  • Integrated C4I

  • Automatic ammunition handling

  • Automatic gun laying

  • Autonomous inertial navigation and gps

  • Enhanced bite

  • Built in redundancy

Development/Description

The LIW 155 mm 52 calibre turret system has been developed as a private venture by LIW for the export market and builds on the experience obtained in the design, development and production of the 155 mm/ G6/45 calibre 6x6 self-propelled artillery system which is in service with Oman, South Africa and the United Arab Emirates.
The G6, in turn, builds on experience obtained in the combat-proven 155 mm 45 calibre G5 towed artillery system.
The T6 turret can be mounted on any suitable chassis and has already been integrated onto a T-72M1, Arjun and G6 chassis.
The newT6 155 mm 52 calibre turret is a completely autonomous turret system that differs from the G6, in that provision has been made for the storage of projectiles and charges in the turret. This required a repacking of the turret power unit and bustle.
The T6 turret system sent to India was fitted with a 155 mm 52 calibre ordnance which, firing Extended Range Full-Bore Base Bleed (ERFB-BB) projectiles, gives a maximum range of 41,000 m.
The chamber volume is 23 litres, similar to the chamber volume of the standard production 155 mm 45 calibre system. The recoil system has been upgraded and now has diametrically opposed buffers similar to the single buffer used on the G6 but with integral oil replenishers. Two diagrammatically opposed gas-operated recuperators are fitted.
The design of the barrel and cradle has been modified to make it possible to remove and replace the barrel from the front. The barrel is fitted with a double baffle muzzle brake and a steel fume extractor.
The breech mechanism used in the T6 is a newly patented design and is of the slide and swing type with double split rings and obturator pad. An automatic primer loader with a 20 round magazine is integrated with the breech.
A barrel cooling fan is fitted on the cradle to reduce recovery time in the event of unsafe barrel temperatures being reached. A barrel temperature measurement system has also been installed which gives a warning to the commander in case of high barrel temperatures.
The turret is fitted with a fully automated charge and projectile replenishment, handling and loading system.
The T6 turret has been designed to fire all types of NATO ammunition. Using the Denel manufactured ERFB (Extended Range Full Bore) boat tail and Extended Range Full-Bore Base Bleed (ERFB-BB) projectiles, the modular combustible case charge system muzzle velocities and maximum range under standard conditions are as table above:
The ammunition, projectiles, charges and fuzes fired by the more recent T6 are identical to that fired by the well established G5 and G6 155 mm 45 calibre artillery systems.
The charge system is the modular combustile case cartridge system developed by the SOMCHEM Division of Denel which consists of the M51 charge, M52 charge which can be fitted with one or two charge increments and a stand-alone charge M53 that gives a total of five zones. These charges have special barrel erosion reduction and flash suppression properties.
According to LIW, specifications for dispersion are similar to those of the current production 155 mm 45 calibre system. Probable errors of 0.48 per cent of range and one mile in deflection at 75 per cent of maximum range are quoted.
In firing trials, probable errors of 0.3 to 0.4 per cent of range and 0.35 to 0.4 mile in deflection have been obtained consistently with both boat tail and base bleed ammunition. Using the M53A2 top charge, barrel life is more than 3,500 rounds.
The T6 system has already been qualified with high-explosive smoke and red phosphorus projectiles, of boat tail and base bleed types, to the full range potential.
The T6 turret has full traverse through 360° with the 155 mm 52 calibre ordnance capable of being elevated from-5to+75°. When travelling the ordnance is held in position by an A-frame which is pivoted at the front of the hull.
The ammunition handling system of the T6 is very flexible and can be changed depending on the tactical situation and the customers exact operational requirements.
The T6 turret carries a total of 40 complete 155 mm rounds and, depending on the chassis type selected, an additional 10 155 mm complete rounds can be carried.
In the ammunition handling system, the projectile and charges are transferred from the carousels to the same position into the charge and projectile loading arms. This facilitates extremely quick loading of all onboard ammunition. Replenishment of the onboard ammunition can be accomplished either through two doors in the turret rear, or via the turret compartment.
The T6 can also fire ammunition directly from a ground pile, so bypassing the ammunition storage system. For this purpose, two openings and trays have been provided in the turret to chassis interface, one on the left side and one on the right side.
Loading is by means of two automatic rammer systems, one for the projectiles and one for the charges.
The maximum rate of fire is 6 rds/min for all onboard ammunition. The sustained rate of fire is 2 rds/min for as long as safe barrel temperatures are maintained as indicated in the temperature warning system.
The T6 uses the same laying and navigation system as used in the G6. An autolaying system is coupled to the laying and navigation system as in the G6 and enables rapid relaying between rounds.
As an independent 36 kW turret power unit is fitted in the turret bustle, the main engine of the chassis can be switched off during firing.
The interface ring between the T6 turret and the T-72 chassis allows for the removal of the T-72 engine with the turret traversed 90° to the side.
The turret is of all-welded steel armour that provides the crew with protection from small arms fire and shell splinters. In total, eight 82 mm smoke grenade launchers are mounted on the front of the turret. An LIW 7.62 mm S77 machine gun is fitted externally on the left cupola for local and anti-aircraft defence.
Standard G6 systems fitted to the T6 are the crew compartment communication system, (intercom and radio) and the automatic fire detection and suppression system. Mounted on the cradle is a muzzle velocity measurement radar.
VLAP projectile

Early in 1997, the SOMCHEM Division of Denel revealed that it had developed a new 155 mm Velocity enhanced Long-range Artillery Projectile (VLAP) which has a range of more than 50 km.
By 1999, development of the VLAP had been completed and it was moving into the industrialisation phase. The VLAP has been developed for the export market.
As well as being fired from the current 155 mm 45 calibre G5 and G6 artillery systems, VLAP can also be fired from other 155 mm 39 calibre and 52 calibre systems using standard artillery charges.
No modifications are required to the actual weapon for firing the VLAP and there would be no changes to the drills or logistics. Extensive firing trials have shown that the VLAP has excellent reliability, dispersion and range.
The new VLAP has the standard elongated shape with welded nubs which is also used for the ERFB and ERFB-BB projectiles.
In addition to the base bleed unit it also has a rocket motor assist which typically extends the range by 10 km depending on the weapon and charge used.
As the rocket motor extends into the VLAP body there is some loss of HE content when compared with the standard ERFB projectiles.
SOMCHEM stresses that the VLAP is complementary to Denel's existing 155 mm ERFB and ERFB-BB projectiles as it would enable friendly artillery systems to engage threat artillery systems while remaining safe from counter battery fire.
In addition, it would enable targets well to the rear such as command centres, air defence systems and logistics centres, which are now beyond the range of many artillery systems, to be engaged.
Status
Development complete. Ready for production. Evaluated in India.​
Specifications:
PropertyValue
Main weapon caliber (mm)
155​
Barrel length (calibres)
52​
Weight (kg)
18500​
Number of smoke grenade launchers
4​
Elevation (degree)
75​
Depression (degree)
-5​
Traverse arc (degree)
360​
Firing range (m)
50​
Rate of fire (rds/min)
8​
Crew
5​

ProductAmount
Included in:
Bhim (Self-propelled howitzer)
1​

Has folowing part:
TotalAmount
VLAP (Projectile)
1​

so TL;DR; here is
- it does have two separate rammers for pushing 155mm projectile as well as propellant charge packs in succession

while reading for K-9 on Army Guide, it says
- Internally an automatic loading system takes projectiles from the storage position and places them onto the ammunition tray ready for ramming. The projectiles are loaded into the chamber automatically by the flick rammer. The charges are loaded manually.

however, there are videos of improved K9A2 version of SPH that's given more automation at chambering part with two rammers that push projectile and propellant charge in succession; guess K9A3 is going to follow it too

so yeah, in terms of timeline Bhim was a bit ahead than vanilla K9 in this regard

but perhaps biggest advantage of K9 system is its automatic ammunition resupply vehicle K10 something that quickly loads up entire SPH

any future Bhim SPH revival project should come out with indigeneous alternative to K10 automatic ammunition resupply vehicle at least

one of thing that kinda annoys me is, Turkiye also makes their version of K9 there, and since Turkiye-Paki = Miya-Bibi to each others there're chances for porks getting some critical info regd K9's performance to counter us in any potential conflict, so we should aim for aatmanirbhartaa for SPHs in long run
 
Much better to just further indigenise and modernize the k9 vajra.
We already import relatively low components directly from korea now, most of the korean components are either indigenised under tot or replaced by Indian origin systems developed with the help of drdo.
The only major imports are the engine from Germany and transmission from USA.

In terms of parts by value, cost and weight k9 vajra is as indigenous as LCA tejasMK1A( initial versions with israeli aesa).
The only difference being symbolic "origin".
Random bhai Sahstrabuddhe, you can’t “indigenise” IPR protected product like you can’t “Indigenise” iPhone whatsoever % of it is made in India.
 
Members might not know but Bhim SPH had much more advanced turret than that of K9 and surprise surprise K9A3 is going to use a similar fully automatic loading like Bhim whereas right now in K9A2, charge has to be loaded separately by loader.

Future is going towards fully automatic unmanned turret in SPHs. So, Bhim will always be better base than K9 will ever be.

Will also help towards developing unmanned and remote operation of SPH.

And again I would like to say that screwdriver product made in India is not indigenous. IDDM is the thing you want.

We will have to go for a new design of Hull and turret for indie SPH keeping in mind of future growth capability.
Its just Dumb do same-same for a local product with IPR, with a foreign product.
And this stupid call for “indigenisation” of a foreign product that is IPR protected like K9, Rafale, T90, iPhone, Tesla roadster etc
 
Do we have a tracker for the Field Artillery Rationalisation Plan ?

Referring to this.

So as I recall in terms of getting cleared by CCS to already inducted

145 M777
114 Dhanush
200 K9 Vajra
307 ATAGS (Now that it's ordered give it an actual name FFS)

So total - 766 / 3000-3600 :rage:
Truly not an era of war.

Out of 114 Dhanush ordered, OFB has delivered only ~20 guns.

Supply chain issues excuse given by OFB. Don’t think Army will repeat order it. At least not from OFB.
 
Out of 114 Dhanush ordered, OFB has delivered only ~20 guns.

Supply chain issues excuse given by OFB. Don’t think Army will repeat order it. At least not from OFB.
OFB(Oh Fu***g B). Meanwhile Baba Kalyani banging his head at every doorstep to get an order
 

since DG arty(r) had mentioned in his "The print" interview.

before 2014 article in spslandforces website, the term "Field Artillery Rationalisation Plan" officially does not exist on the internet. there is a mediumisation of arty guns plan that comes up post-kargil review during previous vajpayee gormint. the numbers being quoted are unnamed source based(i think).

from a gormint's side, FARP exists only on DRDO website and no where else.
814 number for MGS comes from AoN from 2014

FARP is a citation loop, without official source.

i don't mind being corrected on this.
 
since DG arty(r) had mentioned in his "The print" interview.

before 2014 article in spslandforces website, the term "Field Artillery Rationalisation Plan" officially does not exist on the internet. there is a mediumisation of arty guns plan that comes up post-kargil review during previous vajpayee gormint. the numbers being quoted are unnamed source based(i think).

from a gormint's side, FARP exists only on DRDO website and no where else.
814 number for MGS comes from AoN from 2014

FARP is a citation loop, without official source.

i don't mind being corrected on this.
Really, I saw many retired officers criticising we haven't inducted enough artillery haven't followed rationalisation plan. Just rant like us from there I thought its some serious real artillery capability plan. Even some footage officers aren't aware enough.
That being said our requirements are still huge.
China has total of 7500 guns in service
 

Latest Replies

Featured Content

Trending Threads

Back
Top