DRDO and PSUs

705-Lira said:
It's practically the same missile, IAF/IA refer to it as MRSAM whereas Navy refers to as LRSAM.
Navy version likely has a range of 100km whereas IAF/IA MRSAM has a range of 70km.
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That was in the past. Now all the services call it MRSAM. I have not found any official reference where it said that naval version has a range of 100km (except the news in media).
 
Kattar said:
Every company that can build light tanks will want to have a product on offer. Just that most of them are too risk averse to invest in designing one from ground up.

Critical parts in EVs built by even Tatas and Mahindras come from China via Indirect route to hide actual origin. Such well established companies with good markest share and considerable volumes are reluctant to invest in core R&D for a product which they know will be in market for 10-15 years. Investing for 5-10 years building a complex product that will have to be L1 after it has passed Moon and Mars trials is practically Harakiri for decent sized companies when you know your competitors will simply change name-plate of foreign maaaal and claim it to be made inhouse

Only way to resolve this quandorum is initate a system, where each part in any defence product should come with certification that it is 100% made in India from Raw material onwards. Anything else should have 100% direct additional taxation on import value which should be based on Fair market price (and not bogus low value Invoice that are usually submitted). There should also be a cap of 30% for imported components breaching which disqualifies the company. Creating this breathing space may encourge Indian companies to do actual R&D
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Army will give “L” to all the pvt players who will do such massive investment hoping to get contract. ]I mean L1
 
I wonder heavy hmgs can be used on drones al9ng with mechanism to convert left over recoil to convert quick high DC charge bursts which can be used to charge battery on the fly.
 
Anants said:
I wonder heavy hmgs can be used on drones al9ng with mechanism to convert left over recoil to convert quick high DC charge bursts which can be used to charge battery on the fly.
Click to expand...
these days i use grok to delegate thinking on such thoughts. :daru:
======
Let’s break this down step-by-step to estimate the torque and power generated by the recoil of a heavy machine gun (HMG). Since you haven’t specified a particular HMG, I’ll use the M2 Browning .50 caliber machine gun as a reference, as it’s one of the most iconic and widely studied HMGs. If you had a different gun in mind, feel free to clarify!

Torque from HMG Recoil​

Torque is a measure of rotational force, typically in Newton-meters (N·m), and depends on the force applied and the distance from the pivot point (e.g., the gun’s mount or the shooter’s shoulder). For an HMG, recoil generates a linear force, but if mounted on a pivot (like a tripod or vehicle turret), it can produce torque.

  1. Recoil Force Calculation:
    • The M2 Browning fires a .50 BMG round (12.7×99mm NATO).
    • Typical muzzle velocity: ~890 m/s.
    • Bullet mass: ~42 grams (0.042 kg) for a standard ball round.
    • Using conservation of momentum (assuming the gun is much heavier than the bullet and propellant gases), the recoil impulse comes from the bullet and propellant gas exiting the barrel.
    • Propellant mass is roughly 0.016 kg (16 grams), with a gas velocity around 1,500 m/s (an estimate based on typical firearms).
    • Momentum of bullet = 0.042 kg × 890 m/s = 37.38 kg·m/s.
    • Momentum of propellant gas = 0.016 kg × 1,500 m/s = 24 kg·m/s.
    • Total recoil momentum ≈ 61.38 kg·m/s per shot.
  2. Recoil Force:
    • The force depends on how quickly this momentum is imparted (the time of barrel pressure). For an HMG, this is typically on the order of 0.001–0.002 seconds.
    • Average force = momentum / time. Using 0.0015 s:
      Force ≈ 61.38 kg·m/s / 0.0015 s ≈ 40,920 N (Newtons).
  3. Torque:
    • Torque = Force × Distance from pivot. If the recoil force acts 0.5 meters from the pivot point (e.g., the distance from the barrel to the mount’s pivot), then:
      Torque = 40,920 N × 0.5 m = 20,460 N·m per shot.
    • This is a rough estimate and varies with the mounting setup, barrel length, and recoil mitigation (e.g., muzzle brakes or buffers in the M2 reduce effective recoil).

Power from a Full Magazine​

Power is energy per unit time (Watts = Joules/second). To calculate the power from a full magazine, we need the recoil energy per shot, the firing rate, and the number of rounds.

  1. Recoil Energy per Shot:
    • Recoil energy can be estimated using the kinetic energy of the recoiling system. For the M2, the gun itself weighs ~38 kg (without tripod), and recoil is mitigated by its mass and mechanism.
    • Recoil velocity of the gun = momentum / mass = 61.38 kg·m/s / 38 kg ≈ 1.62 m/s.
    • Recoil energy = ½ × mass × velocity² = ½ × 38 kg × (1.62 m/s)² ≈ 49.9 Joules per shot.
    • This is the energy absorbed by the gun or mount per shot.
  2. Firing Rate and Magazine:
    • The M2 has a cyclic rate of ~450–600 rounds per minute (let’s use 500 rpm, or 8.33 rounds per second).
    • A “full magazine” isn’t a standard term for the M2, as it uses belts, but a common belt is 100 rounds.
  3. Total Energy:
    • Energy from 100 rounds = 49.9 J/shot × 100 shots = 4,990 Joules.
  4. Power Output:
    • Time to fire 100 rounds at 8.33 rounds/second = 100 / 8.33 ≈ 12 seconds.
    • Power = Energy / Time = 4,990 J / 12 s ≈ 415 Watts.
    • This is the average power delivered to the gun/mount over the duration of firing the belt.

Summary​

  • Torque: Approximately 20,460 N·m per shot, depending on the pivot distance (e.g., 0.5 m).
  • Power: Around 415 Watts for a 100-round belt fired at 500 rpm.
These are ballpark figures based on simplified physics and the M2 Browning as an example. Real-world values depend on the specific HMG, ammo type, recoil mitigation systems, and mounting.
 
ezsasa said:
these days i use grok to delegate thinking on such thoughts. :daru:
======
Let’s break this down step-by-step to estimate the torque and power generated by the recoil of a heavy machine gun (HMG). Since you haven’t specified a particular HMG, I’ll use the M2 Browning .50 caliber machine gun as a reference, as it’s one of the most iconic and widely studied HMGs. If you had a different gun in mind, feel free to clarify!

Torque from HMG Recoil​

Torque is a measure of rotational force, typically in Newton-meters (N·m), and depends on the force applied and the distance from the pivot point (e.g., the gun’s mount or the shooter’s shoulder). For an HMG, recoil generates a linear force, but if mounted on a pivot (like a tripod or vehicle turret), it can produce torque.

  1. Recoil Force Calculation:
    • The M2 Browning fires a .50 BMG round (12.7×99mm NATO).
    • Typical muzzle velocity: ~890 m/s.
    • Bullet mass: ~42 grams (0.042 kg) for a standard ball round.
    • Using conservation of momentum (assuming the gun is much heavier than the bullet and propellant gases), the recoil impulse comes from the bullet and propellant gas exiting the barrel.
    • Propellant mass is roughly 0.016 kg (16 grams), with a gas velocity around 1,500 m/s (an estimate based on typical firearms).
    • Momentum of bullet = 0.042 kg × 890 m/s = 37.38 kg·m/s.
    • Momentum of propellant gas = 0.016 kg × 1,500 m/s = 24 kg·m/s.
    • Total recoil momentum ≈ 61.38 kg·m/s per shot.
  2. Recoil Force:
    • The force depends on how quickly this momentum is imparted (the time of barrel pressure). For an HMG, this is typically on the order of 0.001–0.002 seconds.
    • Average force = momentum / time. Using 0.0015 s:
      Force ≈ 61.38 kg·m/s / 0.0015 s ≈ 40,920 N (Newtons).
  3. Torque:
    • Torque = Force × Distance from pivot. If the recoil force acts 0.5 meters from the pivot point (e.g., the distance from the barrel to the mount’s pivot), then:
      Torque = 40,920 N × 0.5 m = 20,460 N·m per shot.
    • This is a rough estimate and varies with the mounting setup, barrel length, and recoil mitigation (e.g., muzzle brakes or buffers in the M2 reduce effective recoil).

Power from a Full Magazine​

Power is energy per unit time (Watts = Joules/second). To calculate the power from a full magazine, we need the recoil energy per shot, the firing rate, and the number of rounds.

  1. Recoil Energy per Shot:
    • Recoil energy can be estimated using the kinetic energy of the recoiling system. For the M2, the gun itself weighs ~38 kg (without tripod), and recoil is mitigated by its mass and mechanism.
    • Recoil velocity of the gun = momentum / mass = 61.38 kg·m/s / 38 kg ≈ 1.62 m/s.
    • Recoil energy = ½ × mass × velocity² = ½ × 38 kg × (1.62 m/s)² ≈ 49.9 Joules per shot.
    • This is the energy absorbed by the gun or mount per shot.
  2. Firing Rate and Magazine:
    • The M2 has a cyclic rate of ~450–600 rounds per minute (let’s use 500 rpm, or 8.33 rounds per second).
    • A “full magazine” isn’t a standard term for the M2, as it uses belts, but a common belt is 100 rounds.
  3. Total Energy:
    • Energy from 100 rounds = 49.9 J/shot × 100 shots = 4,990 Joules.
  4. Power Output:
    • Time to fire 100 rounds at 8.33 rounds/second = 100 / 8.33 ≈ 12 seconds.
    • Power = Energy / Time = 4,990 J / 12 s ≈ 415 Watts.
    • This is the average power delivered to the gun/mount over the duration of firing the belt.

Summary​

  • Torque: Approximately 20,460 N·m per shot, depending on the pivot distance (e.g., 0.5 m).
  • Power: Around 415 Watts for a 100-round belt fired at 500 rpm.
These are ballpark figures based on simplified physics and the M2 Browning as an example. Real-world values depend on the specific HMG, ammo type, recoil mitigation systems, and mounting.
Click to expand...
Using grok is good idea i used chatgpt, and here it is what it spelt out. Highlighted in red is interesting

That's a really cool concept—and yeah, it's actually within the realm of possibility with the right engineering. Let’s break it down a bit:

1. Heavy HMGs on drones

Feasibility: Mounting a heavy machine gun (HMG) on a drone isn’t new—military-grade drones like the Turkish Songar or the Russian KUB-BLA have carried firearms or explosive payloads. However, true HMGs like the M2 Browning (.50 cal) bring serious weight and recoil challenges.

Challenges: You’d need a drone with significant lift capacity, stabilization systems to handle recoil, and enough onboard power for all this.


2. Harvesting Recoil Energy

Mechanism: Recoil from an HMG is intense and rapid. Instead of damping it out entirely, you could redirect part of that energy into a kinetic energy recovery system (KERS)—kind of like regenerative braking in EVs.

Conversion to electricity: That recoil could drive a linear generator, converting the kinetic energy into quick DC bursts. These wouldn’t be continuous, but could provide short recharge spikes, especially useful during low-activity moments.


3. Application of bursts

Could be used to:

Charge internal capacitors (like supercapacitors) for burst power

Feed into auxiliary systems (like targeting or countermeasures)

Slightly extend mission battery life in bursts



4. Realistic Issues

Weight of conversion systems

Efficiency loss (you’ll lose some energy in the conversion process)

Heat management

Timing: the recharge would only occur during firing, which might not be frequent enough to make it worth the added complexity


5. Potential workaround

Use electromagnetic recoil dampeners instead of mechanical ones—these can already generate electricity and can be better suited for this idea.

Use the charge for short-burst emergency systems like propulsion boosts, signal jammers, or active defenses.


Want to brainstorm a design or sketch the system architecture for it?
 
Anants said:
Using grok is good idea i used chatgpt, and here it is what it spelt out. Highlighted in red is interesting




Want to brainstorm a design or sketch the system architecture for it?
Click to expand...

nah, carry on. i am trying to figure out why there was spike in agri exports in 2013.
 
Fatalis said:
That was in the past. Now all the services call it MRSAM. I have not found any official reference where it said that naval version has a range of 100km (except the news in media).
Click to expand...
No the lrsam is said to burn it's fuel slightly slower than mrsam. So it might be getting a longer range.
It makes sense as now they have vlsrsam along with it
 
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