DRDO and PSU's

I think it's pretty evident our generals are operating with an antiquated mindset or at any rate it's a pre Ukraine mindset . If regular artillery isn't going to cut it with mobility being an issue then mounting ULH on a vehicle should be explored.

If there are limitations on range due to the calibre & mobility is still an issue then we should be exploring long range rockets on reverse slopes . Unfortunately the pace of development here too is glacial.
The general bought up a point I found interesting, but I dont agree with how he responded to it.....


He said atrillery cant do shoot and scoot in mountain due to terrain issues, so it is a "dig in and fight" thing.

But that doesnt solve how 15 ton gun>18ton gun ques.

One thing he said was they used the pack gun (75/24 pack gun, <1 ton in weight). for this, but I think heavy mortars can do the same job (in some cases even better due to higher angle of firing) with much more protability (man portable).....


Basically

If terrain suitable to transport heavy arty, take ATAGS.

If 18 is just a little over, then take dhanush/bofors (we will have some 300 total ig after orders finished, enough for this niche)

If even that doesnt work, light 105 MGS should be best, get a near 20km range with scoot and shoot from roadside if needed.

If no vehicle is possible, put a section with a 120mm mortar and just manpack it (or animals, both work ig with newer mortars like K6)
 
To you maybe.

I've asked around a lot regarding this during when I was helping Kuntal model the Tejas & Mark2... The HSLD is longer & doesn't fit Jaguar's tandem carrier. The old bombs will remain till remains in service, for massed groud-attack. Takes lesser space.
View attachment 16415

The HSLD is much lower drag & we use it in future. Currently lighter jet doing a bomb run with lesser payload uses it for efficiency. Such runs thus happen to be smaller target orientedView attachment 16417


Sudarshan beard on the older bomb has been discarded because of same reasons, excessive drag & vibration at high speeds. Going ahead we'll be using either of the two below.
View attachment 16418View attachment 16419
Are you sure PGHSLD is even gonna see service with IAF. Have seen production pics of LRGB and news of its orders but strangely nothing about PGHSLD has been mentioned in past few years.
Even TARA came out of nowhere.
And then we have REK kits for HSLD and GP bombs mentioned in positive indigenous list.
 
To you maybe.
Ahh thanks

But then even it doesn't make much sense. On Jags the centreline and inboard pylons use a rack to accomodate two tandem bombs. Two HSLD in tandem may be bit too long for the centreline pylon but for the wing pylons it won't be an issue; Jags regularly carry the huge 1200l drop tanks on these pylons. You can very well designed a new double rack.

You correctly pointed the fact that HSLD 450s are longer in range than 1000lb MCs and takes up lesser space. If volume is constant (both 450kg) and you increase the length then this means HSLD 450 should have slightly smaller diameter than the MCs. So you can very well carry them in dual racks on all the three pylons quite easily.

One counterpoint that you can come up with would be that the width of 2x HSLD 450s on centreline pylon would be too much and might interfere with the landing gears. But Jags were designed to carry a large reconnaissance pod on the centreline pylon.
 
You can very well designed a new double rack.

They won't dude... There's no point in using HSLD if you're bomb-trucking. They have no reason to do all that. I know it's cool, but it costs money. One should have a same platform to streamline things, not for some coolness. Just because white-people are doing it doesn't mean we need to too. In our case it'll only overcomplicate things, plus take unnecessary time & effort.
We also have a lot of these old bombs in stock. Jags are gonna be using them. They'll be phased out together.

Lighter jets like Tejas while use HSLDs too will use them when in bomb-truck config. image-1.webpIMG_20200709_161628.webp

Oh and that side-by-side rack thing will have near twice the drag as tandem, even if the bombs are HSLD. I know because I worked on fanart of it once. We're not gonna have any such pylon other than for Su-30 bomb-trucking FAB.LCA Tejas bomb dual-rack.webp

Additional:
 
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Are you sure PGHSLD is even gonna see service with IAF. Have seen production pics of LRGB and news of its orders but strangely nothing about PGHSLD has been mentioned in past few years.
Even TARA came out of nowhere.
And then we have REK kits for HSLD and GP bombs mentioned in positive indigenous list.

Now this one is a good question.

My take. No. AFAIK they feel time for Sudarshan like close-in LGBs are gone. They'd prefer to release them from afar with a drone doing the lasing (bit risky business if you're in contested air).
TARA didn't come out if nowhere, I've been seeing pics of it for a long time now.

1st there was the 2nd winged version of PG-HSLD.F5FuTKWXoAEHLK7.webp
Then they started with range-extending all HSLDs (I dunno how it works with dumb-bombs)GIl7yKmXQAAjWiE.webp

Latest was TARA, using what looked like the PG-HSLD platform (TV & LG seek option).f8yqsgwaaaemkva.webp


This i think all HSLDs are for low-payload specific-target strikes, while the old 450kg bombs are for large scale area bombing.
 
Now this one is a good question.

My take. No. AFAIK they feel time for Sudarshan like close-in LGBs are gone. They'd prefer to release them from afar with a drone doing the lasing (bit risky business if you're in contested air).
TARA didn't come out if nowhere, I've been seeing pics of it for a long time now.

1st there was the 2nd winged version of PG-HSLD.View attachment 16519
Then they started with range-extending all HSLDs (I dunno how it works with dumb-bombs)View attachment 16518

Latest was TARA, using what looked like the PG-HSLD platform (TV & LG seek option).View attachment 16520


This i think all HSLDs are for low-payload specific-target strikes, while the old 450kg bombs are for large scale area bombing.
So, here's the problem I see with your take, but before I would like to point out few things.

REK are basically ins/gps guided strap on kits meant to be attached to dumb bombs to increase range and precision. Basically our UMPKs. Only thing that they don't provide any kind of terminal guidance.

Now, here is the conflicting thing, on one hand you said there is no need of close in LGBs like munitions. And on the other hand it was mentioned that old 1000lbs bombs are for area bombing, which is essentially a get close and hit weapon. At this point MANPADS will take that aircraft down. There is no easy SEAD against MANPADS like passive system.

And why would they productionise non winged version of LRGB then??
If the future airspace is going to be more challenging, then it only makes sense to get only winged glide bombs due to their good range.

Here too, if we argue that we can mount a good SEAD/DEAD ops against enemy medium and long range SAMs, we can make a argument that PGHSLD/JDAM like bomb becomes a very valuable and cheap asset. It easily provides a standoff range range from 14-21kms even if launched from medium altitudes of 2-5kms. Most vehicle based army short range SAMs of PLA are around 15-20kms max.

Even the future of mass bombing would be multiple JDAM like kit equipped bombs on single pylon which would provide precision with range. Ofcourse IAF has too first place a massive order for the cost to be cheap enough. USAF regularly cluster drop jdams from its strike eagles and falcons to use them like a bomb run tactics.

One thing I would like to correct is that PGHSLD is nothing like a regular LGB, PGHSLD has ins/gps and is much better. Basically, you launch a PGHSLD in generalised direction and tell it to go to a certain area and it then looks for a laser point if its present for even more precision. While for LGB you have to throw it in such a way precisely that it's seeker end up looking the target and laser pointer for it to be guided to. Launch range of traditional LGBs is less than 12kms. And improper throw of LGBs make them duds in effect sense.
I don't remember the source but traditional LGBs have a very significant rate of failure.

My take is that something happened with PGHSLD probably and they went for TARA which will have same identical purpose with both winged and non winged version. Unless and until TARA doesn't come out to be rocket boosted. At which point, I don't know what the hell is going, but then again IAF managed to give orders for purpose built LRGBs but no news of getting precision kits for literally 1000s of HSLD bombs in its inventory.

Hopefully DRDO also make TB composition for HSLD and GP bomb casings as well. For now it has limited to old 1000lbs bomb casings.
 
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That's because it's inertia guided, much cheaper
High end INS systems are more expensive (and bulky) as compared to GPS guidance!! Heck, you could buy one from Alibaba for 14$ or less, LMAO!! Now, granted, these are not 'military-grade' but even those wouldn't cost as much as an INS.
& I don't think it'll help you if it landed 5m away from you 😆
What about hitting a structure?? I guess that never crossed your mind, now did it??
 
So, here's the problem I see with your take, but before I would like to point out few things.

REK are basically ins/gps guided strap on kits meant to be attached to dumb bombs to increase range and precision. Basically our UMPKs. Only thing that they don't provide any kind of terminal guidance.
Come again??
 
So much going on here Mate
I'll try my best
REK are basically ins/gps guided strap on kits
Not really, REKs are just the wings. Think like this, in a missile [Fuze+Warhead+Rocket+Guidance] what's contributing to its range? The rocket or the guidance? REKs are the analogous to rockets not the guidance
Mk-83 = dumb bomb
+ JDAM = guided one
+ REK = glide bomb

As for terminal guidance, you don't need any terminal guidance unless you're hitting a moving target. With jam resistant GPS you can easily get CEP of <5m and with a 250kg warhead even a 10m miss wouldn't matter much.
area bombing
The old bombs are because if they're removed from service then the effective load of jaguars would drop from current maximum of 8 to 5. More or less this was why he used the word carpet bombing.

Also LBGs are the worst choice for area bombing as you'd be needing separate channels to guide each bomb, otherwise they'll all just hit one point except...well and area. GPS guided (glide or non glide) bombs are the perfect choice for it as you can make a grid of GPS coordinates.
One thing I would like to correct is that PGHSLD is nothing like a regular LGB, PGHSLD has ins/gps and is much better.
Absolutely wrong my Guy
The current Paveway series started in mid 60s, way before GPS. Not to mention the fact that it's been hardly 2-3 decades since GPS became miniature, cheap and rugged enough to be used in munitions. Same goes for INS; RLG & FOG both used to be extremely expensive and large for these kinds of applications and were reserved for more expensive missiles. As soon as INS improved followed by GPS, almost all the LGBs started to be dual-mode. L-JDAM tested in 2004 were dual mode and so were the Paveway IV, developed in 2006. You know what, even the Griffin kits we've are dual mode.
SEAD/DEAD
Let's talk about the typical ROE of a SEAD mission.
Traditionally you'd have an aircraft flying with ARMs and a slightly better RWR; that's it. RWR gets lighted as a Christmas Tree and fire an ARM at that general direction and as soon as the missile leaves the rail you start doing evasive maneuvers. A more modern version is when you have a complicated system that automatically converts ELINT into precise GPS coordinates and release multiple GPS guided bombs targeting multiple different locations at the same time.

In case of a LGB, you'd need to point a laser on all the different radar systems at once all while doing 7g evasive maneuvers.
How are you going to achieve that?
something happened with PG-HSLD
As for what happened to PG-HSLD the answer is most probably that people realised LGBs are slowly losing their significance.

• You can't use a LGB or even a missile on tanks now as in future every tank would have an APS and your laser would trigger it from some 15km away
• You can't do a fire-n-forget mission with LGB as your wingman needs to continuously keep pointing a laser dot on the target untill it has been hit so no evasive maneuvers.
• For moving targets we've much better systems of guidance like IIR that's completely passive so doesn't trigger any sensor and is fire-n-forget.
• And for fixed targets, jam resistant GPS has already become so matured that you can get LGB levels of precision. ~1m CEP
• For LGB you'd need either the launch platform or an UAV or a ground team to get close (~15km) enough to illuminate the target. We've already covered planes and for UAVs you'd be inside the range of enemy ADS. Infiltration by ground team is extremely difficult and risky.

The only option left for LGBs are basically targets that can't fire back...COIN operations. And slowly the world is moving away from COIN phase (Syria, Afghanistan) to LSCO phase (China, Ukraine).
 
The accuracy appears to be quite low as compared to similar Chinese and American systems.
Well in Pinaka's defence, using a single sample to find accuracy is bit harsh on it as having a Pk of 1 is an extraordinary event.

For CEP calculation you'll need atleast two rockets so that you can calculate the radius inside which atleast half of them would land. With just one it becomes a Schrodinger's rockets that's both inside the CEP and outside it.
That's because it's inertia guided
But also as a counter to its poor accuracy, it's not an INS guided system. It's GPS backed by an INS
Screenshot_2024-11-26-09-40-19-12_6bcd734b3b4b52977458a65c801426b0.webp
So it's really weird to see this much deviation when other GPS enabled systems are much more tighter
 
Well in Pinaka's defence, using a single sample to find accuracy is bit harsh on it as having a Pk of 1 is an extraordinary event.

For CEP calculation you'll need atleast two rockets so that you can calculate the radius inside which atleast half of them would land. With just one it becomes a Schrodinger's rockets that's both inside the CEP and outside it.

But also as a counter to its poor accuracy, it's not an INS guided system. It's GPS backed by an INS
View attachment 16554
So it's really weird to see this much deviation when other GPS enabled systems are much more tighter
Could it be that they were trying to simulate a GPS denied environment?? Now that I think about it, I had read somewhere that accuracy of the M31 rockets used in HIMARs and Excalibur shells had dropped to up to 50 meters due to Russian GPS jamming.
 
Now that I think about it, I had read somewhere that accuracy of the M31 rockets used in HIMARs and Excalibur shells had dropped to up to 50 meters due to Russian GPS jamming.
And those are just short ranged ones. If you take things like SDBs, the deviation becomes even more prominent. But then again there's some caveat in this too. This was USA's "Indian defence preparedness" moment

• As far back as 2016, not US just military intelligence but even defence reporting houses were writing detailed article on Russian GPS tampering
Screenshot_2024-11-26-10-46-43-02_6bcd734b3b4b52977458a65c801426b0.webp
Screenshot_2024-11-26-10-46-27-96_6bcd734b3b4b52977458a65c801426b0.webp
• What's even more interesting is that some OSINTs and ultra-autistic SMEs were able to accurately trace the location of this exact jammer; named the Baltic jammer

View: https://x.com/auonsson/status/1775216532030713871
• And even after all these the US DoD failed to grasp the severity of this problem and do something to mitigate it. No a single large scale program was initiated to upgrade the existing GNSS receivers with more robust anti-jam/spoof ones.
On top of everything the M-Code GPS system planned to be fully operational by 2016 have been continuously facing delays.
• Not to mention the fact that whatever limited jam-proof confidential GPS they've is not going out the mainland this early in development.
Could it be that they were trying to simulate a GPS denied environment??
I doubt it

Generally only one feature is tested at a time so that it's easier to figure out what went wrong like at first it's just captive carry of a bomb, then release in next trail, guidance in next and ultimately in the final you've a complete bomb with live warhead.

I don't think they're going to test full fledged GPS denied testing this early in its trials.
 

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