GTRE GTX 35VS Kaveri

Bigshot said:
Y'all see this

Debunking Safran Certification of Kaveri Engine Rumor: Old News Resurfacing – Indian Defence Research Wing

idrw.org idrw.org
Seems like it'll only be ready to tested by 2028-29🥲
Click to expand...
Was always the case. The roadmap is pretty simple but bears repetition in spite of several posts to this effect in the past on various SM platforms.

Install the Kaveri dry version on the Ghatak & get it certified followed by mating an AFB onto it, mounting it on a FTB ( be it Tejas or any other Aircraft) , test & certify it.

Further, before I forget, the aim of GTRE must be to achieve tech specs of ~ 52- 55 KN / ~ 90-95 KN in dry & wet thrust respectively for it to be really effective.

It's a pretty relaxed time frame as the initial lot of Mk-1 will come in for an MLU involving replacement of the TFs between 2035-40. The newest certified version of the Kaveri TF has to be ready by then to replace the F-404.
 
Bigshot said:
Y'all see this

Debunking Safran Certification of Kaveri Engine Rumor: Old News Resurfacing – Indian Defence Research Wing

idrw.org idrw.org
Seems like it'll only be ready to tested by 2028-29🥲
Click to expand...

What I know is which is gonna happen is when Tejas will go under mlu mid life upgrade it will get kaberi engine.

Now dry kaveri was supposed to get ready for ghatak so that is why we heard in the past new afterburner is under development.
As if dry kaveri is ready there is not much left to not to put kaberi on Tejas.

After the kaveri was delinked from Tejas. It went cold for some time but took traction as many new significant technologies were being developed post 2014,15,16. Or were near completion.
Like fan disk turbine disk making tech, SCB, laser drilling tech for drilling cooling channels into SCBs, alloys superalloys and some few more.
Also alot has to do with weight reduction.
There were also some simulation studies Reported that current kaveri can produce 57kn dry and 91kn wet thrust.

So today given tech we have kaveri is fully capable of what it was supposed to do.

So as per idrw if it is getting ready by 2028-29. Let's assume production ready by 2032-33
Then more than half of those 97 ordered Tejas can have kaveri.
Now I don't know how time it will take for testing above was just assumption don't take it seriously but it seems that atleast some Tejas will get kaveri even if it's ready by 2035.

Anyways it's a great achievement. I think we will see kaveri on Tejas before 2030
 
Satish Sharma Ji said:
So as per idrw if it is getting ready by 2028-29. Let's assume production ready by 2032-33
Then more than half of those 97 ordered Tejas can have kaveri.
Click to expand...

No. With the order of additonal 97, LCA product will be bumped upto 24/year and all jets will be delivered with GE404 by 2033.
 
Encouraging reports of progress!
Azaad said:
Was always the case. The roadmap is pretty simple but bears repetition in spite of several posts to this effect in the past on various SM platforms.

Install the Kaveri dry version on the Ghatak & get it certified followed by mating an AFB onto it, mounting it on a FTB ( be it Tejas or any other Aircraft) , test & certify it.

Further, before I forget, the aim of GTRE must be to achieve tech specs of ~ 52- 55 KN / ~ 90-95 KN in dry & wet thrust respectively for it to be really effective.

It's a pretty relaxed time frame as the initial lot of Mk-1 will come in for an MLU involving replacement of the TFs between 2035-40. The newest certified version of the Kaveri TF has to be ready by then to replace the F-404.
Click to expand...
Agree with you. I see an afterburning Kaveri as a Tejas MLU replacement for F404. Why develop it at a relaxed pace? If it were developed more quickly, it could be used in some of the 97 additional Mk1A expected to be ordered.

I am surprised at the wet thrust level you mention. Eurojet EJ200 produces 60kN dry thrust and 90kN wet thrust (a 50% increase over dry thrust). The Kaveri target you set for wet thrust % increase over dry thrust is much higher. What makes you think that GTRE will manage to achieve that?
 
Nutcracker said:
No. With the order of additonal 97, LCA product will be bumped upto 24/year and all jets will be delivered with GE404 by 2033.
Click to expand...
I considered timeline with delay,longer testing Etc.
As per reports it will be ready by 2028-29.
This is where I have trust issues. It is not clear wheather production ready or not or fully certified.
It would be great if we manage to equip some sq. And they will do that as they will have to use them in mlu. Why won't iaf want to get there hands on it.
So they could do some arrangement to equip 1or 2 sq. By 2030 maybe 2032 lol who knows
 
Spitfire IX said:
Encouraging reports of progress!

Agree with you. I see an afterburning Kaveri as a Tejas MLU replacement for F404. Why develop it at a relaxed pace? If it were developed more quickly, it could be used in some of the 97 additional Mk1A expected to be ordered.
Click to expand...
The relaxed pace is on account of the UCAV Ghatak the dry version is supposed to power. It's not yet been sanctioned funds which is expected to happen this Financial Year.

If the construction of the UCAV begins next year, it'd be 3 years for the construction followed by a year of taxi trials followed by Flight Trials. Assuming flight trials commence by 2030 , it'd take 5 years for certification.

One assumes that within a year of the flight trials as the flight envelope is expanded, that in itself would serve as validation of the dry version of the Kaveri.

All then that needs to be done is mate the AFB to the dry version of the Kaveri, mount it on an FTB & get it certified.

If the GTRE is convinced of the efficacy of the dry version based on bench tests & limited trials on the FTB, this process could well be circumvented with GTRE approaching MoD thru the DRDO for sanction of funds to conduct flight trials directly on the Tejas after mating the dry version of the Kaveri to the AFB, though I doubt the MoD will concur with this move.

Spitfire IX said:
I am surprised at the wet thrust level you mention. Eurojet EJ200 produces 60kN dry thrust and 90kN wet thrust (a 50% increase over dry thrust). The Kaveri target you set for wet thrust % increase over dry thrust is much higher. What makes you think that GTRE will manage to achieve that?
Click to expand...

The GE - 414 has a dry thrust of ~ 58 KN & a wet thrust of ~ 98 KN. That's ~ 66% increase over the dry thrust. Subsequent iterations of the GE - 414 have an even better ratio with respect to the wet thrust.

It depends on the core & the envelope the GTRE can expand it too . In any case the version powering the Mk-1 / Mk-1a delivers ~ 50 KN / 85 KN respectively.

This has to be bettered as there are opinions in some quarters that in spite of powering the Tejas Mk-1 / Mk-1a with an improved version of the GE - 404 , it's slightly under powered.

With the MLU scheduled for 10-15 years from today, given the advancement in avionics they'd definitely require a much better power source. Hence the wish list from my end.
 
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Azaad said:
The GE - 414 has a dry thrust of ~ 58 KN & a wet thrust of ~ 98 KN. That's ~ 66% increase over the dry thrust. Subsequent iterations of the GE - 414 have an even better ratio with respect to the wet thrust.

It depends on the core & the envelope the GTRE can expand it too . In any case the version powering the Mk-1 / Mk-1a delivers ~ 50 KN / 85 KN respectively.

This has to be bettered as there are opinions in some quarters that in spite of powering the Tejas Mk-1 / Mk-1a with an improved version of the GE - 404 , it's slightly under powered.

With the MLU scheduled for 10-15 years from today, given the advancement in avionics they'd definitely require a much better power source. Hence the wish list from my end.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the info.

It's a big ask to get Kaveri from 50kN/52kN dry thrust to 85kN wet - similar dry/wet % increase as found on GE F414.
 
Azaad said:
The relaxed pace is on account of the UCAV Ghatak the dry version is supposed to power. It's not yet been sanctioned funds which is expected to happen this Financial Year.

If the construction of the UCAV begins next year, it'd be 3 years for the construction followed by a year of taxi trials followed by Flight Trials. Assuming flight trials commence by 2030 , it'd take 5 years for certification.

One assumes that within a year of the flight trials as the flight envelope is expanded, that in itself would serve as validation of the dry version of the Kaveri.

All then that needs to be done is mate the AFB to the dry version of the Kaveri, mount it on an FTB & get it certified.

If the GTRE is convinced of the efficacy of the dry version based on bench tests & limited trials on the FTB, this process could well be circumvented with GTRE approaching MoD thru the DRDO for sanction of funds to conduct flight trials directly on the Tejas after mating the dry version of the Kaveri to the AFB, though I doubt the MoD will concur with this move.



The GE - 414 has a dry thrust of ~ 58 KN & a wet thrust of ~ 98 KN. That's ~ 66% increase over the dry thrust. Subsequent iterations of the GE - 414 have an even better ratio with respect to the wet thrust.

It depends on the core & the envelope the GTRE can expand it too . In any case the version powering the Mk-1 / Mk-1a delivers ~ 50 KN / 85 KN respectively.

This has to be bettered as there are opinions in some quarters that in spite of powering the Tejas Mk-1 / Mk-1a with an improved version of the GE - 404 , it's slightly under powered.

With the MLU scheduled for 10-15 years from today, given the advancement in avionics they'd definitely require a much better power source. Hence the wish list from my end.
Click to expand...
There was some news about structure of ucav almost ready, and ready for engine fitment. Not everything open source is the status quo
 
Wolfie said:
There was some news about structure of ucav almost ready, and ready for engine fitment. Not everything open source is the status quo
Click to expand...

As of now there's nothing in the public domain about the Ghatak. Moreover the project as such hasn't received sanction of funds & tests involving the SWiFT is reported to be continued.

Then again it's a classified project directly monitored by the PMO. So who knows ?!
 
 
History of GTRE.

In the early 1970s, GTRE had embarked on research projects in the area of compressor, combustor, turbine, engine control system, heat transfer,and so on, so that the input from these projects would provide valuable data for configuring a viable indigenous propulsion system. In the mean time,the work on the integration of the single-stage transonic compressor with six subsonic stages of the Orpheus 703 engine had been completed and the performance level achieved during the static tests in May 1974 proved the reliability, repeatability, and mechanical integrity of the design and gave considerable confidence to the GTRE team to take on the development of a power plant for the military aircraft

GTRE developed the reheated version of orpheus-703.

Eleven prototypes were built and extensive bench testing of over 2000 hr under extreme tropical conditions were also carriedout. The reheat engine Orpheus 703-1700K was fitted on a prototype of Marut and over 250 hr of flight testing were completed. These tests indicated that there was substantial improvement in performance by the Orpheus 703-1700K engine in respect of takeoff, run, climb, acceleration, maximum speed etc., over the non-reheat engine2,3. The Orpheus 703-1700K engine was type certified in December 1973.
IMG_20240705_100644.jpg

Later on aircraft designers launched the Marut MK II design around the programm GTRE-developed Orpheus-703 reheat engine . Subsequently GTRE took up the design and development of Orpheus 703-2000 K reheat system. Two prototypes were built, successfully bench tested for about 160 hr and then subjected to simulated flight testing at the Altitude Test Facility in UK.
It was a pity that the crash of the redesigned Marut fitted with the reheat
engine in one of the early development flights put an end to the Marut Mk II
and the Orpheus reheat engine programme.
IMG_20240705_102257.jpg
GTRE was also involved the replacement of the first stage of the seven-stage subsonic compressor of the Orpheus with a transonic stage and matching it with the rest of the subsonic stages. integrated research engine system was test run in May 1974 and the results were encouraging.

In 1974,GTRE embarked upon the programme of designing and developing an engine demonstrator programme based on a straight jet engine. The plan called for development of important subsystems incorporating latest technological advances for the demonstrator engine. The laboratory adopted the flat rating concept presently well known as high throttle ratio so that the configured engine system would be optimised at high forward speed and high ambient temperatures

A number of testing & manufacturing facilities were ser up.
IMG_20240705_102625.jpg

Number of developments were done in the area of compressors and combustor.
IMG_20240705_102943.jpg
Similar developments were also done in the area of turbines.
IMG_20240705_103053.jpg
GTRE successfully addressed the issue of vibrations.
IMG_20240705_103248.jpg

GTX incorporated all components /subsystems, such as transonic
compressor, annular combustor, shrouded cooled turbines, fully variable
exhaust nozzle, digital control system and sophisticated materials and
metal-forming techniques. The engine was test run successfully bringing to
an end the demonstrator phase of engine development..
IMG_20240705_103430.jpg

In 1980, discussions were held between GTRE and M/s Rolls Royce of UK to examine the feature feasibility of developing a viable engine designated GTX-Adour which would integrate the core of the Adour engine used in the Jaguar with the components of GTX design. The collaboration did not materialise and it was decided to go ahead with the full-scale development of the GTX engine.This engine would serve as a highly effective and useful test vehicle for validating advanced technology design features
IMG_20240705_100408.jpg
 
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Spitfire IX said:
Encouraging reports of progress!

Agree with you. I see an afterburning Kaveri as a Tejas MLU replacement for F404. Why develop it at a relaxed pace? If it were developed more quickly, it could be used in some of the 97 additional Mk1A expected to be ordered.

I am surprised at the wet thrust level you mention. Eurojet EJ200 produces 60kN dry thrust and 90kN wet thrust (a 50% increase over dry thrust). The Kaveri target you set for wet thrust % increase over dry thrust is much higher. What makes you think that GTRE will manage to achieve that?
Click to expand...
Kaveri engine has lot a of potential for growth.
Current Kaveri engine has bypass ratio of .17 which is very low.
Most fighter aircraft engines have by pass ratio between .25 - .50.

Increasing bypass ration increase thrust but Reduce efficiency in super-sonic region.
(Lower bypass ratio is recommended for better super cruise performance).

One of the reason for f 35's inability to super cruise is that it use an engine(f135) with bypass ratio of .7 and the other reason is that it designed as a bomber so it have a fuselage as thick as a hippo.
 
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