GTRE GTX 35VS Kaveri

[TopWatcher]

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[TopWatcher]

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nt8LqA5SKrM

 

[AGNI 6 ICBM]

Post in thread 'AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft' https://defenceforumbharat.com/threads/amca-advanced-medium-combat-aircraft.110/post-35883


Drdo chief said they are going to make 6 th gen jet engine for 4-5 Bn Usd....




Definition of 6 th gen engine according to Drdo





But this slide about Drdo JV engine for AMCA falls in 5 th gen category

Eg:
1.Fan pressure ratio of 5
2.Max TET 2000 K
3.Thrust vectoring nozzle
4.Single crystal blades
5.Overall pressure ratio of 30+




GTRE slides few years ago
Pic: ang3lkenny (twitter)

Max TET is 2100 K in this slide
But 2000 K in latest slides


Then how will DRDO JV engine fall into 6 th gen jet engine category


Are they Going to replace single crystal blades by CMC blades in future ?


interesting thing is AMCA will have Thrust vectoring capability in future ( mentioned in description of NOZZLE)





Thrust vectoring capability



so Drdo JV engine isn't 6 th gen engine as mentioned by Drdo chief as of now




Only way it becoming partial 6 th gen engine is

1.By replacing SCB with CMC

2.Increasing TET to 2200 K from currently planned 2000 K

3.Replacing mechanical Thrust vectoring with Fluid thrust vectoring


Fluid thrust vectoring

 

[Azaad]

This slide is not about accomplishment but intention for future Engine where they are thinking of taking of foreign OEM help in core section and rest from PSU labs and Pvt Sector. Check the picture of engine - its of M88 engine. There was a slide leaked in 2022 which detailed what all items were tackled and where we lagged. That slide was too specific hence was redacted.

How did the GTRE decide what tech they would develop, what tech local academia could develop & what tech would they need from the foreign collaborator?

 

[Azaad]

Well spotted! @AGNI 6 ICBM

I was under the impression given the huge delay in our declaration of the JV we're negotiating for 5 Gen + tech. That clearly doesn't seem to be the case here.

If we're seeking a JV for 1700°C TET, quite obviously we haven't mastered material tech or we'd take a good enough amount of time to do so. Hence the JV for 5th Gen tech.

For anything above that would mean VCE & Adaptive Cycle Engine which is what 6th Gen tech is all about.

 

[pipebomb]

50 Kn was Achieved at cost of very low MTBF ofn100 hrs IIRC read at some tweet

How does that work, can you expand a bit ?

 

[shade2]

It will continue to be so. Until we indigenously make one, or cut the red tape and temporarily burn some bridges to reverse engineer every engine we have our hands on, G404, G414, M-88, AL-31, RD-33. Both approaches will take money, money that we are still being very frugal about. These countries will drink their own piss before giving up their latest high bypass turbofan tech.

French and Russians( provided they are weakened enough ) are good candidates for doing reverse engineering on from the PoV of diplomatic fallout.


Americans will make an example of us if we touch their stuff, and ofc they will know.

As you have said and i always say though, money is the biggest obstacle here and the second is time.
Govts of the day can still buy time by giving concessions to Chings but money is something they have to spend, no way without money

 

[pipebomb]

Because Safran told them that it was the only way to resolve the screeching and instability at high RPMs and extend the MTBO

I am a little confused. I thought the screeching & instability were resolved in kaveri itself. What you're telling me is that it's not. And it's the dry kaveri that got rid of the issues mentioned ? Am I missing something here ?

 

[Azaad]

As you have said and i always say though, money is the biggest obstacle here and the second is time.

Money isn't the obstacle. Time & again it's been emphasised. Go thru all those videos at the ACM Subroto Mukherjee lectures hosted by CAPS. It comes thru very clearly. It's chindigiri by our dhotis & babooos beginning with the former & I suspect this goes right to the top - Leaderji.

To make matters worse we have another liability as the Defence Minister who's there to warm his seat & push papers.

Investing 10-12 billion USD over a decade for know how & know why for joint development of a 110- 120 KN TF with the Foreign OEM along with testing facilities is easily done for that's precisely what it's going to cost.

Yet we're dragging our feet . It's either that or someone is actively trying to sabotage the program. I can't think of any other reason really.

 

[pipebomb]

To achieve this much we'd need 10 years & a whole lot of testing infrastructure apart from money to finance the prprogram.

So the latest estimate from saurav jha is that it will take 3-5 yrs to test & certify and that with a new core.

Lack of testing facility in Indian is really hurting us bad.

 

[shade2]

Money isn't the obstacle. Time & again it's been emphasised. Go thru all those videos at the ACM Subroto Mukherjee lectures hosted by CAPS. It comes thru very clearly. It's chindigiri by our dhotis & babooos beginning with the former & I suspect this goes right to the top - Leaderji.

To make matters worse we have another liability as the Defence Minister who's there to warm his seat & push papers.

Investing 10-12 billion USD over a decade for know how & know why for joint development of a 110- 120 KN TF with the Foreign OEM along with testing facilities is easily done for that's precisely what it's going to come to.

Yet we're dragging our feet . It's either that or someone is actively trying to sabotage the program. I can't think of any other reason really.

We're arguing about the same thing my dude.
By money ofc i mean budget allocation, I don't mean we "don't have money" in absolute terms.

If they can blow thousands of crores on Revdi schemes and on MSP purchases pouring money into a strategic program like gas turbine engines is nothing.

I really miss Parrikar, Great Leader trusted him and Parrikar seemed to be competent enough to be the defense minister as compared to Ninda Turtle who is just a rubber stamp.

 

[Anants]

How did the GTRE decide what tech they would develop, what tech local academia could develop & what tech would they need from the foreign collaborator?

Are you saying R&D organization who has spent decades in turbine development wont know what they want to achieve and what would be their strength and weakness ?

 

[Azaad]

Are you saying R&D organization who has spent decades in turbine development wont know what they want to achieve and what would be their strength and weakness ?

I'm saying go through the same diagram again. At the bottom there's a color schema given clearly delineating the tech GTRE has / can develop in house, the tech academia can come up with & more importantly what they want from the Foreign OEM/ Engine House.

It's all there. You can do a SWOT analysis with it if you wish. The diagram is that comprehensive.

 

[Anants]

I'm saying go through the same diagram again. At the bottom there's a color schema given clearly delineating the tech GTRE has / can develop in house, the tech academia can come up with & more importantly what they want from the Foreign OEM/ Engine House.

It's all there. You can do a SWOT analysis with it if you wish. The diagram is that comprehensive.

I dont see anything in the slide which clearly delineates what GTRE has developed. It only indicates what it intends to develop and what its currently working on contrary to what you stated:

This slide here provides comprehemsive information about everything GTRE has accomplished in the nearly 3.5 decades since it has embarked on development of the low bypass Kaveri TF, how it achieved these goals & what it seeks.

The very title of slide tells you its about future project. TW of 10 - which means its not Kaveri or KDE

 

[Azaad]

I dont see anything in the slide which clearly delineates what GTRE has developed. It only indicates what it intends to develop and what its currently working on contrary to what you stated:

I'm truly amazed by your thought process. Why would you seek tech from a foreign OEM which you've already mastered unless that's what you're arguing ?!

The very title of slide tells you its about future project. TW of 10 - which means its not Kaveri or KDE
View attachment 21811

Did I say it's about the Kaveri or KDE? Is there anything substantial you want to debate about or ....

 

[Anants]

I'm truly amazed by your thought process. Why would you seek tech from a foreign OEM which you've already mastered unless that's what you're arguing ?!

Man Azaad Read the room I mean read the slide properly. Hot Section is clearly marked for ToT from Engine House and GTRE is being delegated secondary role

Did I say it's about the Kaveri or KDE? Is there anything substantial you want to debate about or ....

The discussion is about the slide where you claimed it lists items which GTRE developed in house. I just countered the same - stating slide is about prospective Roadmap for future engine and not accomplishments slide.

 

[Azaad]

Man Azaad Read the room I mean read the slide properly. Hot Section is clearly marked for ToT from Engine House and GTRE is being delegated secondary role

View attachment 21814



The discussion is about the PPT where you claimed it lists items GTRE developed in house. I just countering the same - stating its prospective Roadmap for future engine and not accomplishments slide.

View attachment 21701

All those interested kindly bookmark this & the previous post. This slide here provides comprehemsive information about everything GTRE has accomplished in the nearly 3.5 decades since it has embarked on development of the low bypass Kaveri TF, how it achieved these goals & what it seeks.

If some young enthusiast can go thru the program , capture all relevant SS & upload it here it'd serve as a knowledge base for enthusiasts - young & old, whetting these pages in the future. He'd also get our gratitude & appreciation.

This is what I wrote in the post you're citing.

To break it down for your understanding - that slide apart from de lineating clearly what GTRE seeks from a foreign OEM marked by the colour code - brown given at the bottom of the page , also clearly specifies what they've developed for the Kaveri in Blue ( thru in house efforts ) & magenta ( thru collaborative efforts with academia ) .

For further understanding , the bottom extreme right hand corner under the heading - Testing , you've a whole list of items . Just one of them Altitude is in brown which means it's within the scope of the foreign design house which for your further understanding also means GTRE couldn't develop this in house or in collaboration with academia or industry , hence it's in the scope of work of the foreign OEM.

The others namely - Ground & Flight Tests are tech either GTRE has mastered or can do so. Before you start nitpicking which is what you're doing , check on FTB which comes under Flight Testing . Do we have an FTB ? No . Can we develop it on our own without any foreign OEMs assistance ? Apparently GTRE thinks so.


Hence it's the sum total of GTRE's achievements thru the Kaveri project. What's so difficult to understand in this ?

 

[Anants]

This is what I wrote in the post you're citing.

To break it down for your understanding - that slide apart from de lineating clearly what GTRE seeks from a foreign OEM marked by the colour code - brown given at the bottom of the page , also clearly specifies what they've developed for the Kaveri in Blue ( thru in house efforts ) & magenta ( thru collaborative efforts with academia ) .

For further understanding , the bottom extreme right hand corner under the heading - Testing , you've a whole list of items . Just one of them Altitude is in brown which means it's within the scope of the foreign design house which for your further understanding also means GTRE couldn't develop this in house or in collaboration with academia or industry , hence it's in the scope of work of the foreign OEM.

The others namely - Ground & Flight Tests are tech either GTRE has mastered or can do so. Before you start nitpicking which is what you're doing , check on FTB which comes under Flight Testing . Do we have an FTB ? No . Can we develop it on our own without any foreign OEMs assistance ? Apparently GTRE thinks so.


Hence it's the sum total of GTRE's achievements thru the Kaveri project. What's so difficult to understand in this ?

My point of discussion is engine and its parts not the test infrastructure which is another saga in itself. And for prospective engine from slide I understand which section has been relegated to what venture or lab. But what i still fail to find the legend or any writing indication on slide which indicates sections which have been relegated to GTRE and psu labs for development -actually have already been developed - as you claim. So my point still stands.

 

[Azaad]

My point of discussion is engine and its parts not the test infrastructure which is another saga in itself. And for prospective engine from slide I understand which section has been relegated to what venture or lab. But what i still fail to find the legend or any writing indication on slide which indicates sections which have been relegated to GTRE and psu labs for development -actually have already been developed - as you claim. So my point still stands.

Let's agree to disagree. Will not respond to any posts from you tagging me in this matter henceforth.

 

[Anants]

Let's agree to disagree. Will not respond to any posts from you tagging me in this matter henceforth.

ok. Adios