GTRE GTX 35VS Kaveri

[Blademaster]

Thats like nicer way of saying it will be downgraded to export variant
This JV is a lollypop, Either we fly with underpowered engines today or we don't have engines tommorow during war. IAF is choosing later.

Using only technology that GTRE developed while getting paid tons of shit and doing nothing but certifying it. Safran is not really bringing anything to the table.

 

[BON PLAN]

May I ask the reason France doesn't have a semi conductor fab

We had, but it was so cheaper to produce in Taiwan, Vietnam, China... that this industry nearly collapse.

 

[BON PLAN]

Supposing tomorrow the government decided you need to get into the SMC space in a big way & in keeping with France's stated policy on sovereignty do everything in house , how long do you think you'd take to accomplish it particularly when the industrial depth & scientific achievements of France in this field has not been anything significant.

The already have Thales for exemple, that study and produce some very specific cards (as in all the french radars). Also BULL,...
It's maily a problem of cost to produce in the west.
Imagine China invading Taiwan, all the west country will have to energize this tech. I hope we already have B plan in such a (very likely) situation.

 

[BON PLAN]

Safran Says New 110kN Engine for AMCA, Independent of M-88 Technology.

Safran Says New 110kN Engine for AMCA, Independent of M-88 Technology. – Indian Defence Research Wing

idrw.org

FCAS engine is, so far, in the 125KN range...
110 KN or 125 KN : very similar engines?

M88 is mainly optimised for air to ground support, when EJ200 (or M53) is mainly for air to air missions (but all two can do the rest, but with less efficiency).
AMCA and FCAS will focus on air superiority so not specially the M88 config.

 

[Anants]

FCAS engine is, so far, in the 125KN range...
110 KN or 125 KN : very similar engines?

M88 is mainly optimised for air to ground support, when EJ200 (or M53) is mainly for air to air missions (but all two can do the rest, but with less efficiency).
AMCA and FCAS will focus on air superiority so not specially the M88 config.

Actually if JV delivers engine, then they should work on family of Engines. It shall even make more sense for Dassault to open Aviation Company here in alliance with HAL or Tata or Bharat Forge(B737/A320 alternative) or Dynamatics Pvt Ltd or L&T to jointly work on Next gen Strategic/Tactical Airlifter and Civilan Airline. This should give nice Civilian Airlines monopoly to Dassault next venture in Indian Subcontinent. If they succeed in India - they shall get good market in Africa and South America too.

 

[Anants]

FCAS engine is, so far, in the 125KN range...
110 KN or 125 KN : very similar engines?

M88 is mainly optimised for air to ground support, when EJ200 (or M53) is mainly for air to air missions (but all two can do the rest, but with less efficiency).
AMCA and FCAS will focus on air superiority so not specially the M88 config.

And to add. They are aiming low with 110. When AMCA comes online, they thing things they would need to integrate with AMCA - shall make 110 kn again underpowered. 125kn and 130kn would be ideal power ranges they are targeting with AMCA Mk2

 

[randombully]

And to add. They are aiming low with 110. When AMCA comes online, they thing things they would need to integrate with AMCA - shall make 110 kn again underpowered. 125kn and 130kn would be ideal power ranges they are targeting with AMCA Mk2

Exactly with modern more advanced and more powerhungry avionics more power will be welcomed

 

[Blademaster]

110 kn should be an initial target while 125-130 is the desired target.

 

[BON PLAN]

And to add. They are aiming low with 110. When AMCA comes online, they thing things they would need to integrate with AMCA - shall make 110 kn again underpowered. 125kn and 130kn would be ideal power ranges they are targeting with AMCA Mk2

I think this next gen fighter engine will be studied with 2 or 3 differents thrust class.
125/135/150KN maybe.
Or 110/125/140KN, as M88 was (with only the smaller serially produced, the medium made for trial and the bigger only on drawing board).

about M88, a fourth variant may be the T-Rex form : a new M88 with the external shape of M88-2 to be easily put in a Rafale, but with the medium one thrust (somewhere in the 80 to 85KN).

 

[Neil (नील/Нил)]

Before somebody starts with "Source, Trust me bro".

Let me get things clear - I know that IDRW doesn't have a very good reputation as being an authentic source of news and rumours, because a lot of their articles are simply plain copy-paste from online forums and at times even just an opinion based article written by someone.

GE-HAL F-414 Engine Deal Hits Last-Minute Roadblock as GE wants $500 million more – Indian Defence Research Wing

idrw.org

But let's just take the article as the gospels of truth for a second.

Well, Well, all I can say is as long as India is dependent on American engines for its warships and aircraft, we will be at the mercy of the Yankees who can blackmail us as much as they wish. Need to pump funds into Kaveri-JE or else we are going to see many bad times ahead, mark my words. The onus for this is on us, we deserve to go through this. This is the result of negligence in pumping adequate funds for our kaveri engine program. In the name of funds, "peanuts" are given. We expect a BMW or Mercedes for the price of a Maruti, sad but it's the Harsh reality.

We need to increase funds to all agencies who are in charge of the Kaveri program, GTRE in this case, no one is going to part away with a crown jewel technology such as jet engine technology.

 

[Indianhawk]

And to add. They are aiming low with 110. When AMCA comes online, they thing things they would need to integrate with AMCA - shall make 110 kn again underpowered. 125kn and 130kn would be ideal power ranges they are targeting with AMCA Mk2

Not really. 110kn is sufficient to supercruise and provide ample power for electric devices. Infact f414 might itself allow limited supercruise.
F35 has mtow of 30ton and engine thrust with ab is 190KN.
Amca is targeting mtow of 27 ton with 220Kn thrust with definative engine.

Even with f414 it will have much better twr compare to f35.

 

[Anants]

Not really. 110kn is sufficient to supercruise and provide ample power for electric devices. Infact f414 might itself allow limited supercruise.
F35 has mtow of 30ton and engine thrust with ab is 190KN.
Amca is targeting mtow of 27 ton with 220Kn thrust with definative engine.

Even with f414 it will have much better twr compare to f35.

What if laser pods / more powerful anti stealth radar/ more powerful ECM/ECCM become new rage in future - which define jet age of that era - requiring more powerful engines? You are just thinking like LCA designers in 80's - 90s who could not anticipate 2000's. Always have good margins for future add ons.

 

[Indianhawk]

What if laser pods / more powerful anti stealth radar/ more powerful ECM/ECCM become new rage in future - which define jet age of that era - requiring more powerful engines? You are just thinking like LCA designers in 80's - 90s who could not anticipate 2000's. Always have good margins for future add ons.

Future challenges will keep evolving but while designing you need to come at an optimal compromise. More power for engine comes at a cost. You will need bigger intakes bigger dimensions and more fuel consumption will reduce combat range significantly.

Anyways whatever extra is required will be supplied by drones alongside amca. Drones are the future or air warfare and they will argument manned fighter with whatever is lacking on battlefield. Hence focus on mumt.

Besides we will be designing bigger jets than Amca for future requirements. We are almost done with mwf design and it will be rolled out soon. Tedbf design will be over before 2030.
Then we will start designing post Amca jet which will most likely be space - edge fighter ( probably unmanned) and will need much bigger engines.

 

[Anants]

Future challenges will keep evolving but while designing you need to come at an optimal compromise. More power for engine comes at a cost. You will need bigger intakes bigger dimensions and more fuel consumption will reduce combat range significantly.

Anyways whatever extra is required will be supplied by drones alongside amca. Drones are the future or air warfare and they will argument manned fighter with whatever is lacking on battlefield. Hence focus on mumt.

Besides we will be designing bigger jets than Amca for future requirements. We are almost done with mwf design and it will be rolled out soon. Tedbf design will be over before 2030.
Then we will start designing post Amca jet which will most likely be space - edge fighter ( probably unmanned) and will need much bigger engines.

knowing how indian aviation past was and you can easily predict how next 20 years are going to be , I hope more focus is on AMCA and derivatives. Have an engine design which has growth potential to cater for future needs. In aviation, you always design engine first and then aircrafts around it. So better have engine roadmap which results in actual pulava than khyali pulava

 

[Indianhawk]

knowing how indian aviation past was and you can easily predict how next 20 years are going to be , I hope more focus is on AMCA and derivatives. Have an engine design which has growth potential to cater for future needs. In aviation, you always design engine first and then aircrafts around it. So better have engine roadmap which results in actual pulava than khyali pulava

It's good to leave margins always.
Our programs often suffer from travesty of very high expectations.

For example if we were China. We would start producing Amca the day it cleared physical stealth shaping. We won't even wait for mwf level avionics forget Amca specific avionics. We will simply start producing with mk1a avionics inside it.

In second batch we will upgrade avionics to mwf level with better ram coatings on outside.

And in third batch we will finally received avionics specific for Amca. But till then we would have already produced 100+ Amca.

An engine like f414 is a dream for Chinese which can outlast the life of whole jet!!

Alas we have too high standards for our products.
That is the Tejas saga. We could have produced 100+ of them before reaching mk1a stage but we didn't.

So if all stakeholders can stick to the plan it will be a great achievement.