Indian Navy Developments & Discussions

[eastern_bhartiya]

If it will be inducted in 2038, we can as well start working on naval amca, bigger folding wings, stronger undercarraige.

ideally we should work on naval AMCA , but the thing is we don't really work ideally, thus no naval amca, its kinda funny. Expecting agencies to work on that variant while IAF AMCA is not there is wishful thinking, we don't have the kind of proficiency , the infrastructure and frankly even budget to work. There would probably be work on naval amca, its most likely that it won't enter service before 2040, thus they have chosen tedbf. AMCA has to go a long way before we even start thinking about variants.

 

[Anants]

> Everything was COTS from avionics to engine [if even after having an assembly line of Tejas, your complaint is lack of COTS component then you should probably leave defence & aerospace and star a shop for CPU...get plenty of COTS component]

Every argument may seem like a tangent but that line is still part of bigger circle encapsulating the original smaller circle.

See in nutshell the approach you are suggesting is same as chinese and turkey. Build fighter jet supposedly of tomorrow with components available today. And slowly as you realize intended parts and technology along the way - substitute older with new in fighter jet.

This approach can only work if your customers agree to induct and work along. Given we know how our armed forces are this approach is unlikely to work. A8rforce experimented in similar manner with Marut and disliked that Marut remained in development aircraft life. So if you remember their old arguments, they hated idea of inducting in developement lca early on.

 

[randombully]

We South Asians have this unique ability of drawing tangents; give us a circle of any diameter and we'll start drawing tangents with it. Ain't it cool!?

Arguments so far...
> It's a sub-scale demonstrator [yeah, but it's not some RC sized puny jet; it's a fighter sized manned aircraft]
> The budget is not $200 but $700 million [even if a $1 billion budget, it's not a project of national importance...it's on us to pump more funds]
> Everything was COTS from avionics to engine [if even after having an assembly line of Tejas, your complaint is lack of COTS component then you should probably leave defence & aerospace and star a shop for CPU...get plenty of COTS component]
> Only thing new is minimising noise and shockwave [do you have any idea how significant that will be in the whole history of aviation? If it's so cool to belittle something by saying "only thing" so tell me what's so radical in TEDBF? A folding wing or DSI?]

The actual comment of Corvus, on which I replied was simply "Problem here is, TEDBF is not even in development..." My point was, we can also build "a plane" that's currently not in development in three years so that we can pitch it for procurement in the 2028 timeline.

The problem with these kind of statements is that it takes just one statement to negate

ATF's RFP was released in 86 and by 97 the winner was selected, first unit delivered for trials.

11 years for something that was being made for the very first time in aviation history and here you can't make a further development of Tejas in 3 years

No matter how improtant that will be Aviation history, it doesn't change the fact it's a airframe design, it doesn't take as much time to develop.
"A for we south asians"
We SA's also have weird tendencies of adding things to just SA's, I van you millions of examples of people not being SA's and drawing so called "tangents".

Third, I'm not saying tejas program is not delayed, I'm saying the comparison is wrong with that boom supersonic tech demonstrator.
The comparison

We South Asians have this unique ability of drawing tangents; give us a circle of any diameter and we'll start drawing tangents with it. Ain't it cool!?

Arguments so far...
> It's a sub-scale demonstrator [yeah, but it's not some RC sized puny jet; it's a fighter sized manned aircraft]
> The budget is not $200 but $700 million [even if a $1 billion budget, it's not a project of national importance...it's on us to pump more funds]
> Everything was COTS from avionics to engine [if even after having an assembly line of Tejas, your complaint is lack of COTS component then you should probably leave defence & aerospace and star a shop for CPU...get plenty of COTS component]
> Only thing new is minimising noise and shockwave [do you have any idea how significant that will be in the whole history of aviation? If it's so cool to belittle something by saying "only thing" so tell me what's so radical in TEDBF? A folding wing or DSI?]

The actual comment of Corvus, on which I replied was simply "Problem here is, TEDBF is not even in development..." My point was, we can also build "a plane" that's currently not in development in three years so that we can pitch it for procurement in the 2028 timeline.

The problem with these kind of statements is that it takes just one statement to negate

ATF's RFP was released in 86 and by 97 the winner was selected, first unit delivered for trials.

11 years for something that was being made for the very first time in aviation history and here you can't make a further development of Tejas in 3 years

expand...No matter how improtant that will be Aviation history, it doesn't change the fact it's a airframe design, it doesn't take as much time to develop.
"A for we south asians"
We SA's also have weird tendencies of adding things to just SA's, I van you millions of examples of people not being SA's and drawing so called "tangents".

Third, I'm not saying tejas program is not delayed, I'm saying the comparison is wrong with that boom supersonic tech demonstrator.
The comparison with ATF is a better and a valid one.

 

[randombully]

TEDBF is going to share engines with AMCA.

TEDBF is AMCA in another skin. Unless you have cots for AMCA ready, you can't have TEDBF. Actually TEDBF shall be stepping stone to AMCA MK2 in terms of avionics.

Stretched Timelines for TEDBF because french tedbf shall come earlier. It gives Navy enough bandwidth to rethink reimagine original inhouse tedbf later.

Would be better if that skin was stealthy with IWB, because that skin while being not stealthy also cannot evolve into stealthy skin( for example kf21),

 

[Anants]

Would be better if that skin was stealthy with IWB, because that skin while being not stealthy also cannot evolve into stealthy skin( for example kf21),

stealth in naval aircrafts is expensive to maintain more than land counterparts. And the way TEDBF is envisaged as per timelines I think it will see some redesign.

 

[randombully]

ideally we should work on naval AMCA , but the thing is we don't really work ideally, thus no naval amca, its kinda funny. Expecting agencies to work on that variant while IAF AMCA is not there is wishful thinking, we don't have the kind of proficiency , the infrastructure and frankly even budget to work. There would probably be work on naval amca, its most likely that it won't enter service before 2040, thus they have chosen tedbf. AMCA has to go a long way before we even start thinking about variants.

The chinks with their j35 A and J35C, the Americans with their f35A,B,C.
All those varients were developed together at the same time.

 

[randombully]

stealth in naval aircrafts is expensive to maintain more than land counterparts. And the way TEDBF is envisaged as per timelines I think it will see some redesign.

Doesn't change the fact that stealth will be needed in naval aircraft too.
See how j35 is almost near production.

 

[Ayan Barat]

This approach can only work if your customers agree to induct and work along.

Parrikar

I thought that was enough of hint but if you want more explicit opinion then I've said it multiple times...

The best option is if somehow Rajnath Jee drags few people by ear from MoD and few from HAL to make them sit together. And in that one single meeting finalize what improvements MoD want in TEDBF/ORCA* and how fast HAL can start delivering them.

Aviation history, it doesn't change the fact it's a airframe design, it doesn't take as much time to develop.

And my brother in Vishwakarma, what exactly is TEDBF if not an "airframe design"?

You've already indigenized the actuators, no matter what the engine is it's going to be imported so that's not an issue, even in 69th gen fighter the ejection seat would be MB, an excellent radar is already there, the whole quadruplex FBW has already been validated in Tejas and just needs a modification in the parameters, OBOX is there, auto-cannon is there, undercarriage has been realised in N-LCA

Instead of using vague terms like "airframe design", use technical terms and tell me the specific subsystems of TEDBF that we currently don't have in Tejas and will require a considerable timeframe for R&D.

 

[Anants]

I thought that was enough of hint but if you want more explicit opinion then I've said it multiple times...

Thats why I explained as you when you mentioned Parrikar. In one of the latest tidbit information I scraped from one of talks or discussion elsewhere Parrikar was the man who drove G2G Rafale deal coz he was exasperated with domestic situation and capabilities when he tried to push around to deliver LCA expeditiously. Tells you even stalwarts get tired by internal machinations. Every Tomar, Dikshit and Harish of Indian Defence community wants since times immemorial what you wrote. But your wish is like if Mr Gadkari could be defence minister then our air force stations would be filled with local LCA Tejas - than our roads, periphery of railway stations or bus stations with e-riskshaws as of today.

PS: By the way the approach you mentioned in being tried in case of CATS Warrior which shall later grow to CATS MAX.

My last two bits on this topic. Adios

 

[Indianhawk]

we have like 270 Su-30 MKIs, So are we ordering like 150 rafales[ ?

Given the timelines 100+ rafales are coming. Now will they come in one deal or batches remains to be seen.

 

[Indianhawk]

If 3 more scorpenes are going to cost 4.5 billions without the AIP I would rather we just built SSNs until a indigenous SSK can be developed. Why is a non-AIP , regular sized SSK so expensive? It isn't even a cutting edge design like the German or South Korean new SSKs.

Welcome to the post covid world. Everything is expensive. Wait till you learn actual cost of SSN being developed.

 

[randombully]

I thought that was enough of hint but if you want more explicit opinion then I've said it multiple times...


And my brother in Vishwakarma, what exactly is TEDBF if not an "airframe design"?

You've already indigenized the actuators, no matter what the engine is it's going to be imported so that's not an issue, even in 69th gen fighter the ejection seat would be MB, an excellent radar is already there, the whole quadruplex FBW has already been validated in Tejas and just needs a modification in the parameters, OBOX is there, auto-cannon is there, undercarriage has been realised in N-LCA

Instead of using vague terms like "airframe design", use technical terms and tell me the specific subsystems of TEDBF that we currently don't have in Tejas and will require a considerable timeframe for R&D.

TEDBF would Rival 5.5 gen jets except stealth.

View: https://x.com/Varun55484761/status/1887025031965794658
It will basically be amca in another skin, that's why I was saying they should gave gone with stealthy skin.

 

[Ayan Barat]

My last two bits on this topic. Adios

And I just want both to place a combined order 250+ TEDBF in the next couple of years instead of all these Mk-II/1A/Mk-II* shenanigans spread over a decade or so

TEDBF would Rival 5.5 gen jets except stealth.

"This human would rival a male except Y chromosome"

This is how absurd that statement sounds

 

[randombully]

And I just want both to place a combined order 250+ TEDBF in the next couple of years instead of all these Mk-II/1A/Mk-II* shenanigans spread over a decade or so

"This human would rival a male except Y chromosome"

This is how absurd that statement sounds

Doesn't matter how absurd it sounds.
The tech envisioned in tedbf is the same tech in amca, as said before navy is making tedbf into amca in different skin( non stealthy)

 

[Ayan Barat]

Doesn't matter how absurd it sounds.
The tech envisioned in tedbf is the same tech in amca, as said before navy is making tedbf into amca in different skin( non stealthy)

Instead of using vague terms like "airframe design", use technical terms and tell me the specific subsystems of TEDBF that we currently don't have in Tejas an

"tech", "different skin"

Stealth is the one and only generation defining factor that differentiates a 4th gen from a 5th gen. You can't retrofit a generation defining thing from one gen to other.

[In case you're planning to bring in KF-21 as an example then no, that's a different case all together and a pretty dumb one. KF-21 Blk-I and Blk-II have pretty much interchangeable airframe sans the IWB]

 

[randombully]

"tech", "different skin"

Stealth is the one and only generation defining factor that differentiates a 4th gen from a 5th gen. You can't retrofit a generation defining thing from one gen to other.

[In case you're planning to bring in KF-21 as an example then no, that's a different case all together and a pretty dumb one. KF-21 Blk-I and Blk-II have pretty much interchangeable airframe sans the IWB]

Well then let's say tedbf will be 4.5++++++etc gen.
But the timeline of tedbf for 2038, is because avionics and capabilities( except stealth) of Tedbf is envisioned to be same as amca.
So all the tech for tedbf is not Already developed.
Which is also the reason I consider designing tedbf as a non stealthy airframe stupid.

 

[ezsasa]

View: https://twitter.com/AdithyaKM_/status/1888541859976544539?s=19

Works out to 4.25 - 4.5 billion USD & as the tweet at the bottom of this post clarifies, this doesn't even include either the cost or the fitment of the AIP. That should be another billion USD.

Add to that 5-6 billion USD for the 2 nos SSN. Then if we were to factor jizia to Trump, thrown in a few P-8 I . Add to that the Sea Guardians the IN is getting.

Any wonder then the IN isn't going full steam ahead with the TEDBF. Where are we going to get the money to fund the IAC-2 from ?


View: https://twitter.com/wartrophy_414/status/1888604448701706451?s=19

3 type 209NG 4.27 billion $, argentina-germany ongoing deal .

Argentina may buy three German 209NG submarines – sources

The Argentine Navy may acquire three new German-made 209NG submarines with a financial guarantee from Berlin worth approximately $4.3 billion.

bulgarianmilitary.com

 

[Indianhawk]

View: https://twitter.com/AdithyaKM_/status/1888541859976544539?s=19

Works out to 4.25 - 4.5 billion USD & as the tweet at the bottom of this post clarifies, this doesn't even include either the cost or the fitment of the AIP. That should be another billion USD.

Add to that 5-6 billion USD for the 2 nos SSN. Then if we were to factor jizia to Trump, thrown in a few P-8 I . Add to that the Sea Guardians the IN is getting.

Any wonder then the IN isn't going full steam ahead with the TEDBF. Where are we going to get the money to fund the IAC-2 from ?


View: https://twitter.com/wartrophy_414/status/1888604448701706451?s=19

Well Navy's capital budget last year was 62,545 crore -7.5 billion usd approx.

2 initial SSN will come by 2038-40.

So navy has to pay for all these things from now to 2040. Which is 15 years.

Even if we consider this year's capital budget to similar 7.5 Billion usd ( thanks to falling rupee) and project a reasonable 10% per annum growth to naval capital budget navy will have approx 240 billion usd to spend from 2025-2040.

3 more scorpion should cost 4 billion usd.
6 p75i should be 7-8 billion usd.
6 p76 should be 10-12 billion usd .
And 2 SSN should be 7-8 billion usd.
So submarines should take approx 30-35 billion usd only. As per current plan.
26 rafale will cost 7-8 billion.
IAC-2 if approved by 2030 should cost 5-6 billion usd for the ship only.IAC -1 was 3 billion usd.
That is all rounded up under 50 billion usd.

 

[eastern_bhartiya]

Well then let's say tedbf will be 4.5++++++etc gen.
But the timeline of tedbf for 2038, is because avionics and capabilities( except stealth) of Tedbf is envisioned to be same as amca.
So all the tech for tedbf is not Already developed.
Which is also the reason I consider designing tedbf as a non stealthy airframe stupid.

TEDBF would have some traces of a 5th gen fighter, and adding to that, a capable carrier based fighter goes a long way, We don't know how a 5th gen fighter would even perform in an actual full-scale naval engagement. How jets work in sea is different from how they would work in a land based scenario

Here's a thing you can cut a paneer into slices with a sword but should you really use the sword ? , knife is weaker but can also accomplish this job easier. TEDBF with necessary EW arsenal, missile package and support structure would be a monster. USA is still upgrading their F-15 with Ex upgrades. Navy will decide its arsenal in regards to what it thinks , it will have to face in future, there is no point in rushing a naval AMCA, if navy doesn't want it. 5th gen jets would have huge upkeep costs. we're a developing country and would still be developing by then, getting trapped in paranoid arms race is not the way forward. its likely that TEDBF would be quite cheap by then and could be mass produced in a huge number.

 

[randombully]

TEDBF would have some traces of a 5th gen fighter, and adding to that, a capable carrier based fighter goes a long way, We don't know how a 5th gen fighter would even perform in an actual full-scale naval engagement. How jets work in sea is different from how they would work in a land based scenario

Here's a thing you can cut a paneer into slices with a sword but should you really use the sword ? , knife is weaker but can also accomplish this job easier. TEDBF with necessary EW arsenal, missile package and support structure would be a monster. USA is still upgrading their F-15 with Ex upgrades. Navy will decide its arsenal in regards to what it thinks , it will have to face in future, there is no point in rushing a naval AMCA, if navy doesn't want it. 5th gen jets would have huge upkeep costs. we're a developing country and would still be developing by then, getting trapped in paranoid arms race is not the way forward. its likely that TEDBF would be quite cheap by then and could be mass produced in a huge number.

By 2035+, we will easily be 10+ trillion economy by gdp and will cross 23-25 trillion y ppp.
More than capable to afford atleast a 100 stealth airframe for naval wing, and again tedbf will not be much cheaper compared to stealth jets, the only thing cheap would be no cost to maintain stealth.
And as french as shown EW while necessary is not comparable to vlo for jets.
And no, it will not have traces of 5th gen, it will rival amca except stealth, that was navy is envisioning it, plus new tech like mumt, AI pilot( yes it will have that) and if we're going for a jet of that Calibre, might as well make it stealth.
Cost is just not a justification.
And as said before.
J35 A and C , f35 A and C were developed together.