Indian Navy Developments & Discussions

[Ayan Barat]

It's been over 2 decades, can we not design a I which is <8 m in height and 512mm in diameter?? Wouldn't that be much easier?

Yup, it would be. Especially given that we're talking about just a small scaling down instead of something radical. But then again, it's BrahMos Aerospace...

In fact BrahMos-NG in itself is an utterly baffling topic for me.

Take the 533mm tube and flip it vertically along with 5-6 others in a circular tube along with supporting components and you have a 'universal VLS system

BrahMos NG is supposed to length of 5 m and diameter of .5 m which could work nicely with a 533mm VLS.

The thing with BrahMos-NG is that as of now it's just a mock-up, perhaps even the same mock-up that's towed from DefExpo to AeroIndia and again from AeroIndia to DefExpo. It's hard to predict whether these specifications would still be there when it's finally tested.

But let's say it's tested as claimed then why the heck you need to engage in these horizontal to vertical 533mm VLS shenanigans!? Just shove a BrahMos-NG in place of Varunastra and fire from the torpedo tube. Obviously your range would get drastically reduced compared to BrahMos but still, you're getting a torpedo tube launched supersonic AShM. It's a big deal

There is also the concern regarding larger missiles like the LRAshM and SMART which could be adapted onto submarines in the future

LR-AShM and SMART, both are humongous missiles (13-15m) so there's no point discussing them here. Those are in ballistic missile submarine territory.

What I am proposing here is a VLS Payload Module with variable numbers and diameters for different kinds of missiles.

The Arihant Class for example, can have both 4 x 3 K15 Sagarika missiles and 4 x K4 missiles with minor modifications.

Now that you've mentioned Arihant class, it's making more sense. Yeah, you can definitely have a multi-missile VLS set-up like the Muricans on Arihant or S4. A single large toob in which you can have either 1x K4 or 3x K-15 or 3x Nirbhay (though even ballistic missile submarine have 533mm tubes, so you can use them but still) or 3x SMART or 3x BrahMos or 2x LR-AShM

But only in Arihant type subs. Because of the SWaP constraints of these smaller subs like Scorpene or Type-214 it makes no sense bothering about them.

 

[Migflug]

Yup, it would be. Especially given that we're talking about just a small scaling down instead of something radical. But then again, it's BrahMos Aerospace...


View attachment 23015

The thing with BrahMos-NG is that as of now it's just a mock-up, perhaps even the same mock-up that's towed from DefExpo to AeroIndia and again from AeroIndia to DefExpo. It's hard to predict whether these specifications would still be there when it's finally tested.

But let's say it's tested as claimed then why the heck you need to engage in these horizontal to vertical 533mm VLS shenanigans!? Just shove a BrahMos-NG in place of Varunastra and fire from the torpedo tube. Obviously your range would get drastically reduced compared to BrahMos but still, you're getting a torpedo tube launched supersonic AShM. It's a big deal

LR-AShM and SMART, both are humongous missiles (13-15m) so there's no point discussing them here. Those are in ballistic missile submarine territory.

Now that you've mentioned Arihant class, it's making more sense. Yeah, you can definitely have a multi-missile VLS set-up like the Muricans on Arihant or S4. A single large toob in which you can have either 1x K4 or 3x K-15 or 3x Nirbhay (though even ballistic missile submarine have 533mm tubes, so you can use them but still) or 3x SMART or 3x BrahMos or 2x LR-AShM

But only in Arihant type subs. Because of the SWaP constraints of these smaller subs like Scorpene or Type-214 it makes no sense bothering about them.

Wouldn't make sense in SSKs. We need SSBNs for that, more preferably SSGNs. What I am always frustrated with Navy is that they very often design their entire warship with constraints around . While is an excellent platform, we should have tried to make an indigenous clone which is slightly smaller and lighter, to fit in all kinds of VLS. But the Navy particularly for submarines makes obscene requirements just to accommodate . This whole P75I is to get in their VLS!! Making Scorpene with Indian AIP would have been a much more cost-effective deal.

 

[vampyrbladez]

Now that you've mentioned Arihant class, it's making more sense. Yeah, you can definitely have a multi-missile VLS set-up like the Muricans on Arihant or S4. A single large toob in which you can have either 1x K4 or 3x K-15 or 3x Nirbhay (though even ballistic missile submarine have 533mm tubes, so you can ust only in Arihant type subs. Because of the SWaP constraints of these smaller subs like Scorpene or Type-214 it makes no sense

Then why would BrahMos integration be a critical part of the P 75(I) requirements given SWaP concerns.

 

[Flanker]

not sure if its right thread but still posting here..

View: https://x.com/AdithyaKM_/status/1883200275282104751

 

[Rai89]

View: https://x.com/Parthu_Potluri/status/1883027757724303708

The argument against P-75I can be summarized very simply:

• It can't compete with the high-end (P-77 SSN) in terms of capability.
• It can't compete with the low-end (Scorpene with Indian AIP) in terms of affordability.

It doesn't belong in the Indian Navy fleet of tomorrow.

Building a fleet of SSK around Scorpene with Indian AIP would be the best way forward. We have already spent so much time and money in learning how to build Scorpenes and now the Navy wants to throw that away for another foreign sub. The air force is already a zoo, now they are going to ensure our submarine force remains a zoo as well.

Is the Type 214 really so advanced that it worth importing another submarine? I know their AIP and Li ion battery tech is very advanced and their hull design looks very stealthy but is it really worth spending billions of dollars on another foreign design and the logistical cost of supporting another sub ecosystem?

Also do we have IP rights to continue building and modifying the Scorpene design after the next 3 Scorpene are delivered? The South Koreans were forward thinking enough to include ToT and IP in their contract with the Germans. Hopefully we have a similar agreement with the French. Even if the Type 214 get signed it would still be best to keep a Scorpene derived submarine line alive with Indian AIP as a cheaper option to fill the numbers.

 

[Indianhawk]

Wouldn't make sense in SSKs. We need SSBNs for that, more preferably SSGNs. What I am always frustrated with Navy is that they very often design their entire warship with constraints around . While is an excellent platform, we should have tried to make an indigenous clone which is slightly smaller and lighter, to fit in all kinds of VLS. But the Navy particularly for submarines makes obscene requirements just to accommodate . This whole P75I is to get in their VLS!! Making Scorpene with Indian AIP would have been a much more cost-effective deal.

VLS requirment by navy is not just for bramhos. It is because in future we will need even faster missiles with higher range which will ofcourse be bigger.

Regarding bramhos clone. It has no meaning we already have bramhos. But with hypersonic missile coming into play the only way supersonic missile can survive in future is by going stealth.
Hence full Indian supersonic cruise missiles will be stealth shaped design and not bramhos clone.

 

[mist_consecutive]

View: https://x.com/ANI/status/1883152767998636036

 

[Bleh]

Building a fleet of SSK around Scorpene with Indian AIP would be the best way forward. We have already spent so much time and money in learning how to build Scorpenes and now the Navy wants to throw that away for another foreign sub. The air force is already a zoo, now they are going to ensure our submarine force remains a zoo as well.

Is the Type 214 really so advanced that it worth importing another submarine? I know their AIP and Li ion battery tech is very advanced and their hull design looks very stealthy but is it really worth spending billions of dollars on another foreign design and the logistical cost of supporting another sub ecosystem?

Also do we have IP rights to continue building and modifying the Scorpene design after the next 3 Scorpene are delivered? The South Koreans were forward thinking enough to include ToT and IP in their contract with the Germans. Hopefully we have a similar agreement with the French. Even if the Type 214 get signed it would still be best to keep a Scorpene derived submarine line alive with Indian AIP as a cheaper option to fill the numbers.

Ok enough with the price already. Scorpenes are a 1500t sub... P-75I are atleast double that at 3000t. The price increase is 20-25% from them.
You don't get a Frigate for the price of a Corvette!

Now whether we have IP right to build upon Scorpenes is the main question

 

[KAB7777]

After lurking and reading the entire discussion with regards to Submarines of late, I still haven’t been able to find a satisfactory answer regarding, what is it that we’re missing in terms of building and designing/testing Conventional Submarines in India? Since not being able to produce certain components in India has not stopped us from building vessels in India before. With some amount of handholding from Russia we were able to build Nuclear Submarines in India, what stops us from doing the same with Conventional Submarines?

Perhaps we could get Naval Group, TKMS or any of the experienced shipyards abroad as Consultants to help us. This is not without Precedent too, Fincantieri of Italy was involved in the Designing and Construction of INS Vikrant, why not the same for Conventional Submarines too?

 

[randombully]

After lurking and reading the entire discussion with regards to Submarines of late, I still haven’t been able to find a satisfactory answer regarding, what is it that we’re missing in terms of building and designing/testing Conventional Submarines in India? Since not being able to produce certain components in India has not stopped us from building vessels in India before. With some amount of handholding from Russia we were able to build Nuclear Submarines in India, what stops us from doing the same with Conventional Submarines?

Perhaps we could get Naval Group, TKMS or any of the experienced shipyards abroad as Consultants to help us. This is not without Precedent too, Fincantieri of Italy was involved in the Designing and Construction of INS Vikrant, why not the same for Conventional Submarines too?

Designing, developing and Building our own sub will take more time, """"more chances of mishaps and delays""""", may not be as advanced as the one offered, and more complicated.

That more chances mishap and delays I believe are the main reason.
So in a way German sub provides navy a much higher sense of security on delivery of the subs.( won't comment on the political side of relying on Germany)
So the only thing preventing us that navy is not willing to take the risk yet.

Now there are upsides to of IDDM subs too, for example custom made from scratch to suit the needs to Indian navy.

 

[Bleh]

After lurking and reading the entire discussion with regards to Submarines of late, I still haven’t been able to find a satisfactory answer regarding, what is it that we’re missing in terms of building and designing/testing Conventional Submarines in India?

Motivation.

We'll have a fleet of 20 SSKs & the R&D required to build them in-house is disproportionately high unless we seriously get into the export game (which we weren't interest in before 2010).
For a modern SSK it'll have to be much more silent & preferably advanced than any SSN. Given our progress, it'll be feasible only now, not before.

We don't have:

• Engines
• Towed array sonar
• Non-magnetic hull tech

We have/are working on:

• Anechoic tiles
• Active & passive Sonars
• Li-ion batteries
• AIP
• Pump-jet

 

[Indianhawk]

After lurking and reading the entire discussion with regards to Submarines of late, I still haven’t been able to find a satisfactory answer regarding, what is it that we’re missing in terms of building and designing/testing Conventional Submarines in India? Since not being able to produce certain components in India has not stopped us from building vessels in India before. With some amount of handholding from Russia we were able to build Nuclear Submarines in India, what stops us from doing the same with Conventional Submarines?

Perhaps we could get Naval Group, TKMS or any of the experienced shipyards abroad as Consultants to help us. This is not without Precedent too, Fincantieri of Italy was involved in the Designing and Construction of INS Vikrant, why not the same for Conventional Submarines too?

We are getting there. Scorpion subs arrested the fall in numbers but the new German sub is actually closer to the displacement and tech we need for our own indigenous sub.
We will embark upon our own indigenous sub of approx 4K ton displacement based on the German import. We will combine design of German sub with elements from scorpion and our own aip and weaponry plus tech from nuclear subs to create a unique sub which shall remain contemporary for next 40 years.

We will finalise the design for p76 while we produce p75i.

In 1990s we decide to field a modern sub fleet of 24 submarines. 6 + 6 from two foreign sources and later 12 indigenous.
This was to be 30 years plan.

Later modi changed 12 indigenous subs to 6ssk and 6 ssn due to changing geopolitics.

So naval design bureau got it's hands full. With SSN design. Leaving little capacity for a modern SSK design. So that shall pick up pace once SSN designs are finalized and naval design bureau has some space to work on ssk.

Now due to delays we are ordering 3 more scorpion for a total of 9.

I guess we will do the same with German sub and end up ordering 9-10 instead of 6 in the end.

It's about time we start a review in proposed fleet size for next 30-40 years and numbers should go up from 24 to 40 at the least. 9 scorpion + 9 tkms subs + 6 SSN + 16 indigenous subs from 2 lines.

Also as S5 class SSBN enter service we shall re- purpose arihant class as SSGN with non nuclear ballestic and hypersonic cruise missiles.

All that shall be accomplished by 2040-45.

If we need more smaller subs we can always build more scorpions as follow on orders while we might get midget/ coastal subs from l&t .

Let's see how far my prediction go !

 

[Asmodeus]

Navy might have some plans afterall...
Ultimately, the P75I project is too important to fall victim to corporate maneuvering or delays. The Indian Navy’s decision to move forward with TKMS must be weighed carefully against the risks, and all possible scenarios should be considered to avoid strategic pitfalls

P75I : Thyssenkrupp Marine Systems: Strategic Acceptance or Tactical Gamble? - alphadefense.in

Explore the potential risks and delays surrounding India's Project 75I submarine program and its impact on the Indian Navy's operational need

alphadefense.in

 

[Bleh]

It's about time we start a review in proposed fleet size for next 30-40 years and numbers should go up from 24 to 40 at the least. 9 scorpion + 9 tkms subs + 6 SSN + 16 indigenous subs from 2 lines.

This is actually very possible!

It may be that all our SSKs will be imported, just because having any SSN will take up a lion's share of the tech R&D effort & budget. SSK can be imported or ToT built, SSN can't.

P-76 may be 6 derivative AIP subs, beside the 6 TKMS & 9 Scorpenes (so 21 modern SSKs). P77 SSNs to be the priority.
Very possible.

 

[Gessler]

Ok enough with the price already. Scorpenes are a 1500t sub... P-75I are atleast double that at 3000t. The price increase is 20-25% from them.
You don't get a Frigate for the price of a Corvette!

Now whether we have IP right to build upon Scorpenes is the main question

Too early to talk about the price of P75I. The commercial bidding has just opened.

The 70k crore is just a notional figure, an estimate of what it costs to build 6 x subs of that capability after ToT. We can't derive too much from that.

And there are a bunch of costs we didn't account for yet, considering there really isn't an off-the-shelf design for us to go with.

TKMS essentially has to design a new sub for us, and a new version of their AIP scaled appropriately for that sub. That isn't cheap.

It's safe to go with the assumption that P-75I will be significantly more expensive than Kalvari.

 

[AGNI 6 ICBM]

Planned Submarine fleet of INDIAN NAVY :

9 x Scorpene SSK
6 x P75i SSK
6 x P76 SSK
6 x Desi SSN
6 x S5 SSBN
2 x S4 SSBN
2 x Arihant SSBN

Total 37 submarine's
21 x SSK
10 x SSBN
6 x SSN

--------‐--------------------------‐---------------------------------------

My idea for INDIAN NAVY :

9 x Scorpene SSK
3 x Scorpene-ish P76 SSK
12 x Desi SSN
6 x S5 SSBN
2 x S4 SSGN
2 x Arihant SSGN

Total 34 submarine's
12 x SSK
6 x SSBN
12 x SSK
4 x SSGN


Let us find approx diameter of Each silo of Arihant SSBN

This pic shows each Silo can carry 3 x K15 missiles...Diameter of K15 is 0.74 Meters

Pic @dfi_pk bhai

So according to this calculation Diameter of Silo is ~1.65 meters

In silo of diameter 1.65 Meters we can place 4 x Brahm0s-ER (Range-900 Km)

So Each INS ARIHANT can carry 16 x Brahm0s-ER if modified into SSGN.....

S4 Class can carry 32 x Brahm0s-ER if it uses same silo of INS Arihant With diameter ~1.65 meters....

Mostly S4 class silo might have diameter of 2 meters.....

we can fit 7 x Brahm0s-ER in each Silo of S4 class if its silo diameter is 2 meters

So S4 class can carry 56 × Brahm0s-ER if it uses silo of 2 meter diameter.....

You can do sea denial with single S4 SSGN armed with (32-56) Brahm0s-ER
And can sink whole CBG even before it enters INDIAN ocean


In addition to it Even our Desi SSN's would have VLS....

IMO we can't get upper hand in surface to surface conflict with chink navy for next 20 years so better strengthen sea denial capability and deploy huge no of LR-ASHM in Andaman , Agalega islands & southern air command



Happy republic day 🕉

 

[Ayan Barat]

In silo of diameter 1.65 Meters we can place 4 x Brahm0s-ER (Range-900 Km)

This is what I keep saying, you can't do estimation unless you've good data points to begin with.

you some additional data points, it might help you in recalculations

The diameter of BrahMos is mentioned to be 650mm. Fine, it's 650mm; but where?

In the circular part, the fuselage. The fins extend way beyond that diameter. Even if you fold then also they're not going to fit inside just 650mm of diameter.
Want to have a more accurate estimation of its "diameter"? Look at the launch canister

You're 650mm is now suddenly 800mm...pretty inline with that of a (750mm + canister) Sagarika.

 

[shade2]

After lurking and reading the entire discussion with regards to Submarines of late, I still haven’t been able to find a satisfactory answer regarding, what is it that we’re missing in terms of building and designing/testing Conventional Submarines in India? Since not being able to produce certain components in India has not stopped us from building vessels in India before. With some amount of handholding from Russia we were able to build Nuclear Submarines in India, what stops us from doing the same with Conventional Submarines?

Perhaps we could get Naval Group, TKMS or any of the experienced shipyards abroad as Consultants to help us. This is not without Precedent too, Fincantieri of Italy was involved in the Designing and Construction of INS Vikrant, why not the same for Conventional Submarines too?

I would say "why build when you can buy from 5 places" but let's view it from another angle.

We can build an SSK since we already have build SSN so WDB/DRDO knows about the design portion, there are workers and managers and engineers in SDC Vizag to help out MDL or whoever in hull fabrication and all.

The question now is we can build a submarine but is it competitive wiz existing SSKs of foreign countries?

We lack the following technologies, which are key to maintaining stealth and endurance

>Marine Diesel engine for submarines, this is in development for surface ships and the only proven vendor is MTU of Germany for imports, otherwise import from Roos

>AIP - We have one under construction from DRDO now but it has to be fitted into the Kalvari and then tested

>Lithium Ion Batteries - Under development by DRDO but usage of these in subs is new worldwide, Japanese are the world leaders, Korean subs have them and Chinese are planning to add them, TKMS etc are doing R&D afaik

We have domestically built Sonars and other associated system but idk how State of the Art these are, indeed on the surface side the BEL RAWL/LW-08 Radar after being upgrade-maxxed from it's original license assembled version is now being replaced by the Spanish Lanza-N radar on the surface ships.

Aside from the lowest hanging fruit of "AAAAH IM IMPOOOOORTING!!!!!!!" the TLDR here is with P75i we're trying to fill the gaps within our sub building tech, building deshi subs with the current tech stack may lead to the subs being out-dated once they come out as compared to the current State of the Art of our enemies and other foreign countries

 

[Indianhawk]

This is actually very possible!

It may be that all our SSKs will be imported, just because having any SSN will take up a lion's share of the tech R&D effort & budget. SSK can be imported or ToT built, SSN can't.

P-76 may be 6 derivative AIP subs, beside the 6 TKMS & 9 Scorpenes (so 21 modern SSKs). P77 SSNs to be the priority.
Very possible.

Preliminary work on indeginous ssk has already started. It will borrow heavily from this new german design but it will be indigenous.

 

[AGNI 6 ICBM]

This is what I keep saying, you can't do estimation unless you've good data points to begin with.

The diameter of BrahMos is mentioned to be 650mm. Fine, it's 650mm; but where?
View attachment 23081
In the circular part, the fuselage. The fins extend way beyond that diameter. Even if you fold then also they're not going to fit inside just 650mm of diameter.
Want to have a more accurate estimation of its "diameter"? Look at the launch canister
View attachment 23083
You're 650mm is now suddenly 800mm...pretty inline with that of a (750mm + canister) Sagarika.

One can cleanly see max diameter is almost same from top to bottom when it's has its fins & wings folded....

Diameter of cylindrical body of brahmos is ~(0.6-0.65) meters....


Using this Image we get length to diameter ratio of brahmos as ~14..... if length of brahmos is 8.4 meters then diameter of cylindrical Airframe (folded wings) is 0.6 meters.....nose cap is slightly thick so you can take max diameter of BrahMos as 0.6+0.06

So max diameter is ~0.65 meters

Sub launched brahmos ER will use this canister insted of above mentioned universal canister.....

Dedicated brahmos canister 🕉


Drdo uses similar canisters & TEL's to keep development cost less

That universal canister you posted is used to launch k15 , shaurya , pralay , smart it was even used to launch underwater brahmos


Don't let dimensions of it misguide you