Indian Navy Developments & Discussions

[vampyrbladez]

India is not in the top 5 navies, that would be US, China, Japan, SoKo, Russia.
Def in the Top 10 though.

South Korea and Japan have no planned nuclear assets (SSN/SSBN) or Aircraft Carriers (40,000+ tons) in the foreseeable future. Without these there is no chance that you can ever have a true blue navy.

 

[Azaad]

You lost me at S.Korea. Russia-Japan-India comparison is debatable. But S.Korea, though a growing Naval power is nowhere near India. Lack of Aircraft Carriers, Nuclear Submarines, Naval Air fleet, Large replenishment ships , OPV and pretty much in every area.
The only areas they can rival India's fleet are its destroyer and submarine fleets.

The true test of any Navy is whether your Navy is able to enter their waters & win a war against them & vice versa.

As of now only the USN has that ability against any of the listed naval powers. China's fast building up capacities , it's capabilities vis a vis its manpower & quality of their equipment , training etc are another story altogether.

All other comparisons are moot & good enough only to engage fanboys with each other.

 

[darkflame]

India is not in the top 5 navies, that would be US, China, Japan, SoKo, Russia.
Def in the Top 10 though.

Japanese navy has 48 major surface combatants except their LHDs
On the other hand we have 27 frigates and destroyers now also add 4 kamorta class and 4 Kora class missile boats, our other corvettes are too small to consider so we end up around 35 major surface.
But thankfully we will induct 9 more frigates before the end of this decade.
And also 6 ngmvs. 3 rajput class destroyers will also retire. Hence we will have around 47 major surface ships by the start of the next decade

 

[Ayan Barat]

Calculating the ranking on a top 10 list may feel very straightforward, yet very informative for someone without any in-depth exposer to defence technologies. That's why you'd often find these in YouTube videos and news channels.

But doing an in-depth ranking is always going to be a very intensive task. An always, always a contextual ranking. Because saying just "top 5" leave the very important questions of "on what basis?"

1. Top 10 Navies based on number of vessels fielded.
North Korea is going to rank very high on this list, but in a practical sense how effective are those small crafts?

2. Top 10 Navies based on number of primary missiles fielded.
India is going to perform poorly in this list because we'd be competing with Mk-41 fielding and Chinese Navies.

3. Top 10 Navies based on tonnage.
We're going to rank decently in this category, but only some would know that our vessels are underarmed/overweight.

4. Top 10 Navies in terms of absolute firepower.
USA, Russia, France, China, UK and India; that's it, because no other navy has nuclear capability.

 

[Indianhawk]

Naval rankings are difficult.
General rule is that navies with nuke powered submarines and carriers are top ties because they have global reach and very long endurance which means they can take fight to enemies land.

Om this metric we are only behind the P5 nations. In 10-15 years we shall be ahead of uk ,France.

Secondly what matters is overall tonnege/ displacement which shows how much weapons and troops can be taken to the battlespace. Not just worship but auxiliary support is also very valuable to take fight away from your shores.

Om this metric india is 7th largest navy after P5 + Japan. In next 5 years we shall emerge as 5th largest and in 10 years as 4th largest.

Then there are metrics of VLS count , age of warship ( modernization) etc. but nothing is very accurate to asses naval might.

 

[rohitb3]

People are simply complicating rankings here. All these heavy words - "contextual" 'metric tonnage', "P5".
Chodo woh sab.

Take a certain fleet, say the "Destroyer fleet" and compare it with whichever Navy u wanna compare.
Some people are bringing in Uk here, so lets just compare the Destroyer fleet of both.

12 Destroyers equipped with BrahMos, Heavy Torpedo tubes, 7 of them with AESA and Cooperative Engagement Capabilities.
VS
6 Destroyers, with no Anti ship missiles on them , no torpedo tubes, and most of them anyway lying under refit due to propulsion issues.

Similarly do so with other parts of the Navy - The Carrier fleet, Frigate, Corvette, Submarine, etc and come to a conclusion.

Just because certain Navies have SSBNs/SSNs does not automatically make them better, or even in the comparative league. If that was the only criteria, i guess all navies around the world are stupid to invest Billions in Carriers, Destroyers, Frigates, etc, etc. Just put 15 Bil$ for Nuke subs and u would have them pretty quick. Doesn work like that though.

 

[Ayan Barat]

People are simply complicating rankings here. All these heavy words - "contextual" 'metric tonnage', "P5".
Chodo woh sab.

Kavi keh rahein hain ki contextual comparison nahi karna hai

Take a certain fleet, say the "Destroyer fleet" and compare it with whichever Navy u wanna compare.

Kavi keh rahein hain ki contextual comparison karna hai

 

[Hawkeye]

Any idea how the navy is planning to use LORA it ordered. LORA can only be used for static targets. I don't see IN using it as shore to shore bombardment kind of system against Pak naval bases, maybe but unlikely. No vls to launch LORA, doubt we will be using containerised system on some kind of cargo vessel. Just how are they planning to use it.

 

[Ayan Barat]

Any idea how the navy is planning to use LORA it ordered. LORA can only be used for static targets. I don't see IN using it as shore to shore bombardment kind of system against Pak naval bases, maybe but unlikely. No vls to launch LORA, doubt we will be using containerised system on some kind of cargo vessel. Just how are they planning to use it.

If a picture is worth thousand words then how much is a video!?

View: https://youtu.be/oXQnq-pYvQ4?feature=shared

 

[Azaad]

Any idea how the navy is planning to use LORA it ordered. LORA can only be used for static targets. I don't see IN using it as shore to shore bombardment kind of system against Pak naval bases, maybe but unlikely. No vls to launch LORA, doubt we will be using containerised system on some kind of cargo vessel. Just how are they planning to use it.

We specifically got THAT missile only for the name it bore. Imagine launching that missile on Paxtan , all the news channels on MSM will go beserk reporting news of it , what to speak of the headlines or the reaction on SM including the meme fest which'd naturally follow.

It's precisely for this reason the IN will go in for that very same missile even if it lacks features as you mentioned to launch it . It's the prestige of launching it which matters especially when it comes to Paxtan & the IN . Back in 1971 , the IN converted Karachi into its very own firing range.

You think the IN will let's go of such a golden opportunity now while other services have all the fun ? Not happening.

 

[vampyrbladez]

Any idea how the navy is planning to use LORA it ordered.

Against PN and PLAN? Preferably without lube.

Wait...you mean something else?

If you mean the LORA (LOng Range Artillery) missile, probably for shore support from OPVs, LSTs and FSS as a standoff munition.

The LCS and LPD will use the U.S. Army’s M870A3 trailer (towed by the M983A4 tractor) to fire the LRHW whereas the EPF will use a stern crane to hoist, suspend, and fire the LRHW missile canister.

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-new...-missiles-to-the-fleet-a-case-study-analysis/

 

[randombully]

They have SSN/SSBN so there is still some institutional power with them.

SSBM only for nuclear war.
In conventional strength they won't be in top 5 even with SSN.

 

[ArjunMK1A]

Any reason to sudden urge to acquire LORA when we have Pralay on our hand. Because our Missile Scientist and Engineers have good experience in mixing the technology across different missiles. So I don't think it will take significant time to build an LORA equivalent.

We already have Pralay to neutralize the Karachi to Stone age. Also Big B to do strategic strikes.

 

[Ayan Barat]

Any reason to sudden urge to acquire LORA when we have Pralay on our hand. Because our Missile Scientist and Engineers have good experience in mixing the technology across different missiles. So I don't think it will take significant time to build an LORA equivalent.

We already have Pralay to neutralize the Karachi to Stone age. Also Big B to do strategic strikes.

I don't think IN is 'inducting' LORA. Induction would mean a large order, meaning enough documentation in public domain. My guess would be that they're just trying to get a sense of the performance of other ship launched ballistic missiles besides Prithvi. Also the fact that LORA has a man-in-the-loop TV guidance in terminal mode makes it bit tricky to use in dedicated AShM role, where you need something like Rudram-II or Pralay with Active Radar Homing

Also, the closest contemporary of LORA would be Prahaar, not Pralay. LORA's 1.6t missile, 570kg warhead and an absolute maximum range of maybe 250km. (that brochure range of 430km quoted everywhere should be bit difficult to achieve without breaking some laws of physics. Because ATACMS is also 1.6t, carries only a 250kg warhead yet manages to reach just 300km whereas LORA has double that warhead in same overall weight)

> 1.3t missile, 250kg warhead and a range of 200km - Prahaar
> 5t missile, 500kg warhead and a range of at least 750km -Pralay

So, Pralay would be bit too much for the kind of rale IN is seeking these missiles for; the ability to fire from any ship's helideck without much modification to kind of match the ASh-BMs of PLAN in an ad-hoc basis.

 

[ArjunMK1A]

I don't think IN is 'inducting' LORA. Induction would mean a large order, meaning enough documentation in public domain. My guess would be that they're just trying to get a sense of the performance of other ship launched ballistic missiles besides Prithvi. Also the fact that LORA has a man-in-the-loop TV guidance in terminal mode makes it bit tricky to use in dedicated AShM role, where you need something like Rudram-II or Pralay with Active Radar Homing

Also, the closest contemporary of LORA would be Prahaar, not Pralay. LORA's 1.6t missile, 570kg warhead and an absolute maximum range of maybe 250km. (that brochure range of 430km quoted everywhere should be bit difficult to achieve without breaking some laws of physics. Because ATACMS is also 1.6t, carries only a 250kg warhead yet manages to reach just 300km whereas LORA has double that warhead in same overall weight)

> 1.3t missile, 250kg warhead and a range of 200km - Prahaar
> 5t missile, 500kg warhead and a range of at least 750km -Pralay

So, Pralay would be bit too much for the kind of rale IN is seeking these missiles for; the ability to fire from any ship's helideck without much modification to kind of match the ASh-BMs of PLAN in an ad-hoc basis.

Well agree with your take on LORA mind boggling numbers. Since the drishti 10 fiasco. I am believing Israeli weapons were simply overmarketing the capabilities. Also my point is to do mix match of tech for our missiles. If Prahaar can be used, then we can try on our ships since we have few unused space. Just launch them like we do in INS Anvesh.

 

[randombully]

I don't think IN is 'inducting' LORA. Induction would mean a large order, meaning enough documentation in public domain. My guess would be that they're just trying to get a sense of the performance of other ship launched ballistic missiles besides Prithvi. Also the fact that LORA has a man-in-the-loop TV guidance in terminal mode makes it bit tricky to use in dedicated AShM role, where you need something like Rudram-II or Pralay with Active Radar Homing

Also, the closest contemporary of LORA would be Prahaar, not Pralay. LORA's 1.6t missile, 570kg warhead and an absolute maximum range of maybe 250km. (that brochure range of 430km quoted everywhere should be bit difficult to achieve without breaking some laws of physics. Because ATACMS is also 1.6t, carries only a 250kg warhead yet manages to reach just 300km whereas LORA has double that warhead in same overall weight)

> 1.3t missile, 250kg warhead and a range of 200km - Prahaar
> 5t missile, 500kg warhead and a range of at least 750km -Pralay

So, Pralay would be bit too much for the kind of rale IN is seeking these missiles for; the ability to fire from any ship's helideck without much modification to kind of match the ASh-BMs of PLAN in an ad-hoc basis.

Prithivi/dhanush series of missiles do seem to fulfill the same thing as Lora as far as range and warhead size goes though they weight 4+ton
If we can develop an advanced varient of prithvi/dhanush series that uses solid fuel and able to bring the weight under 2 tons( which I trust drdo can easily do now) we get that capability indigenously.

 

[Ayan Barat]

If we can develop an advanced varient of prithvi/dhanush series that uses solid fuel and able to bring the weight under 2 tons( which I trust drdo can easily do now) we get that capability indigenously.

Cheers my brother in High-Explosive (the only true religion), God heard you

 

[randombully]

Cheers my brother in High-Explosive (the only true religion), God heard you
View attachment 23593

I'm talking about 300+km range and 500kg warhead.
Prahar missile is half the range an carries 200kg warhead.

A succesor of prithvi under 2( or even upto 2.5tons) tons, with range of 300+km and 400-500kg warhead.

 

[vampyrbladez]

SSBM only for nuclear war.
In conventional strength they won't be in top 5 even with SSN.

There is a reason why serious global powers (G5+1) build SSN and SSBM.

To break it up :

• SSBN - Second Strike capabilities
• SSN - CBG protection and long range deterrence patrol

France and UK are also have Aircraft Carriers which complement the US strategy of naval dominance.

South Korea and Japan are vassal states of the US, their naval buildup is primarily air defence and shallow water/ littoral defence using SSK (diesel electric AIP/fuel cell submarines).

 

[Bleh]

India is not in the top 5 navies, that would be US, China, Japan, SoKo, Russia.
Def in the Top 10 though.

We'll definitely cross Russians, other than at Cruisers & Corvettes. We already match them at Destroyers & Frigates.