Indian Small Arms and Weapons (19 Viewers)

since armed forces uses Sterling "9mm Carbine" in both standard and suppressed configuration,
and DRDO-ARDE Bharat Forge 5.56mm Carbine is likely to take its space as L1,
I'd like to see it also being issued with some sort of suppressors and subsonic 5.56mm ammo for those kind of roles
 
can somebody tell me what gun is adani offering?
Adani/PLR was offering Galil or X-95 irrc. Their gun cleared the trials but their offer was a bit higher than Kalyani. So they are gonna be the L2 manufacturer for ARDE Carbine most likely.
 
both are good guns, if adani manages to match the L1 offer.
They still can manufacture 40% of the total order for ARDE carbine as L2.
 

5.56×45 round of insas rifle has a more spicy charge compared to nato 5.56×45 nato.
Probably that round is being fired.
Plus being a carbine it's relatively lighter at ~3kg without magazine.
Compared to 3.8kg ak203 without mag.
And ~4kg insas without mag.
+ I think it has to do with the stance
He could lean into it

The effect a simple upgrade to firing stance can make on accuracy, recoil management and follow up shots is immense
 
since armed forces uses Sterling "9mm Carbine" in both standard and suppressed configuration,
and DRDO-ARDE Bharat Forge 5.56mm Carbine is likely to take its space as L1,
I'd like to see it also being issued with some sort of suppressors and subsonic 5.56mm ammo for those kind of roles
On an unrelated note
The 9mm 'CMG' as it is called in the Indian army, is unanimously hated/disliked by everyone, including the instructors, who advice be done with it and never pick it up again in your life

And for good reason
 
@johny_baba
regarding the new ARDE carbine and SSSD statement some where, both have mentioned being able to fire both INSAS and NATO rounds, from a technical stand point what does it mean?

in case already discussed, do point me towards that post.
to keep it short,
INSAS ammo has (almost) same dimension as NATO one,
but,
INSAS ammo is "hotter" = propellants used create more powerful blast, gas pressure and subsequent recoil is higher, bullet fired has slightly longer base at bottom (inside the cartridge side) and bullet construction is slightly heavier (in grams)
so INSAS requires a sturdier construction of chamber, barrel specifications too should be altered in accordance to that, and of course gas system has to be strengthened for it

since ARDE Carbine is build on INSAS tech at home, it's obvious for it to follow it, but for an AR design that SSS D is making in name of M72 it has to be further altered to allow proper firing for this ammo,
normal M4 and NATO spec 5.56mm weapons would cycle faster, and subsequent wear-tear of parts inside would also go up when fired with INSAS spec ammo

so both designs are projected as INSAS compatible = they have taken these differences in mind and designed-produced their weaponry accordingly, good thing to have for Indian Armed Forces that has a stockpile of INSAS ammo

sidenote = when very first XM16E1 = M16 rifle faced inner jungles of Vietnam, a thing happened where
=> the rifle was specifically made for improved NG+NC based propellants
=> US Armaments had stockpile of older NG based propellant called "ball powder", they simply thought heh we just gotta use this, who bothered with such minute things, a supposed 'space aged' design would easily tolerate it
=> ball powered ammo, well it worked, but it also left far more carbon residue inside then M16 and when it was a (improved) direct impingement gas system design, it further fouled its receiver side things
=> result = these fouling would line up in its gas tube, gas key and inner gas chamber of bolt carrier, cause gas pressure to go further up, and it would cycle much faster sometimes at 1000-1200 rounds per minute, but parts weren't really made for these high level of pressure and cycling, so it would literally start chipping at here there, bolt would pull on a chambered and fired ammunition case with such a ferocity that it'd literally rip its rim off and cause severe stovepipe-ish jams
=> worst of all, the US grunts there weren't issued with proper lubricants, or even cleaning kits or manuals much so they can keep their firearm clean and going well
=> when complaints became loud enough, they had to do a lot in regarding all these to solve some if not all issues in harsh environment operation with unsuitable ammo and all

hope you get a basic gist with this post

(now don't literally compare INSAS with vietnam era M16, both are totally different weapons with different set of issues, but this point of 'hotter' ammo of INSAS in NATO spec non-INSAS weaponry holds some mattle)
 
to keep it short,
INSAS ammo has (almost) same dimension as NATO one,
but,
INSAS ammo is "hotter" = propellants used create more powerful blast, gas pressure and subsequent recoil is higher, bullet fired has slightly longer base at bottom (inside the cartridge side) and bullet construction is slightly heavier (in grams)
so INSAS requires a sturdier construction of chamber, barrel specifications too should be altered in accordance to that, and of course gas system has to be strengthened for it

since ARDE Carbine is build on INSAS tech at home, it's obvious for it to follow it, but for an AR design that SSS D is making in name of M72 it has to be further altered to allow proper firing for this ammo,
normal M4 and NATO spec 5.56mm weapons would cycle faster, and subsequent wear-tear of parts inside would also go up when fired with INSAS spec ammo

so both designs are projected as INSAS compatible = they have taken these differences in mind and designed-produced their weaponry accordingly, good thing to have for Indian Armed Forces that has a stockpile of INSAS ammo

sidenote = when very first XM16E1 = M16 rifle faced inner jungles of Vietnam, a thing happened where
=> the rifle was specifically made for improved NG+NC based propellants
=> US Armaments had stockpile of older NG based propellant called "ball powder", they simply thought heh we just gotta use this, who bothered with such minute things, a supposed 'space aged' design would easily tolerate it
=> ball powered ammo, well it worked, but it also left far more carbon residue inside then M16 and when it was a (improved) direct impingement gas system design, it further fouled its receiver side things
=> result = these fouling would line up in its gas tube, gas key and inner gas chamber of bolt carrier, cause gas pressure to go further up, and it would cycle much faster sometimes at 1000-1200 rounds per minute, but parts weren't really made for these high level of pressure and cycling, so it would literally start chipping at here there, bolt would pull on a chambered and fired ammunition case with such a ferocity that it'd literally rip its rim off and cause severe stovepipe-ish jams
=> worst of all, the US grunts there weren't issued with proper lubricants, or even cleaning kits or manuals much so they can keep their firearm clean and going well
=> when complaints became loud enough, they had to do a lot in regarding all these to solve some if not all issues in harsh environment operation with unsuitable ammo and all

hope you get a basic gist with this post

(now don't literally compare INSAS with vietnam era M16, both are totally different weapons with different set of issues, but this point of 'hotter' ammo of INSAS in NATO spec non-INSAS weaponry holds some mattle)
will having a good bolt variable gas block solve the issue ??
 
will having a good bolt variable gas block solve the issue ??
it can in theory mitigate this kind of things, but mind you, a gas regulator too gets dirty and often located at near the main gas port, so in intense firefight it is cumbersome to fiddle with this things to get that appropriate gas setting,
good for some machine gun as most machine gun fights happen at some distance, not so ideal for a CQB weapon

original AR-10 had a gas regulator because it was deemed necessary to have it when NATO was just a new thing and idea of thoroughly standardising some ammo was just put in practice, everyone mostly agreed over keeping basic specs like dimensions and basic ballistics same but there were enough differences in ballistic markers to require some regulation in gas flow like that - FN FAL / / L1A1 SLR had further overenginiggered gas regulator with lots of settings

and then you also don't want your soldiers to tinker around with your weapons in that way, how many of them would even set it back to normal after some fight, to start with, let alone cleaning it at times...
 
man the recoil with this thing is insane considering it is 5.56 and chamber pressure should be tad bit lower, i hope bharat forge/ kalyani modify it a bit and make it comfortable enough for jawans, the gun needs to be a bit more stable right?
 
man the recoil with this thing is insane considering it is 5.56 and chamber pressure should be tad bit lower, i hope bharat forge/ kalyani modify it a bit and make it comfortable enough for jawans, the gun needs to be a bit more stable right?
Bro, please read the above comments well before lamenting!!
 
man the recoil with this thing is insane
It's not.
Somewhat on a higher side for a carbine, but not anywhere near insane.
i hope bharat forge/ kalyani modify it a bit and make it comfortable enough for jawans, the gun needs to be a bit more stable right?
You can achieve better stability& accuracy by providing jawans with better training and better shooting stance, along with letting them get familiar with the carbine.

Here's a kheybar pass area resident eating recoil of an AK.

View: https://youtube.com/shorts/RbPyYThilh0?si=D7qvkb1L7JCPI2B1
Here's a korean american, shooting AK.

View: https://youtube.com/shorts/0qEn0yhBaxQ?si=AkIWPeRGpFSRGT7l
 
man the recoil with this thing is insane considering it is 5.56 and chamber pressure should be tad bit lower, i hope bharat forge/ kalyani modify it a bit and make it comfortable enough for jawans, the gun needs to be a bit more stable right?
Some thoughts regarding that, apart from common "It fires INSAS spec ammo" etc

>in that pamphlet it's mentioned rate of fire in this is higher at 650 to 700 rpm, typical kalashnikov had 600 rpm, INSAS fullsized has 600 to 650 rpm

>a thing regarding Kalashnikov pattern design is, the bolt carrier with that attached long piston atop, makes its balance go slightly off centre, then when it cycles - a bullet is fired is first action, momentarily recoil due to bullet fired is reaction (and true recoil here), when it cycles at immediate moment is third action and literally slams hard to its back end is fourth action with their own reactions, then it slams forward is final action (and reaction etc)...

so all these things happen in split second moments in slightly off centre design of bolt carrier that also slams hard to receiver end and passes its remnants of kinetic energy to a shooter's shoulder...make it jump around, yes, and on full auto this is repeated again and again so there are further jumps

this couldn't really be called recoil but "muzzle climb", happens because of the way a kalashnikov pattern design firearm operates...and even on modern AK203 it persists

So overall we need comments from true, trained guys from armed forces or other shooters to have their hands on this and first fire semi-auto shots to give an idea of true recoil and muzzle climb with that, then fire it in bursts and full auto for better idea of muzzle climbs and "slams" of the bolt carrier on a shooter's shoulder

@Tactical Doge an opportunity for you here
 
It's not.
Somewhat on a higher side for a carbine, but not anywhere near insane.

You can achieve better stability& accuracy by providing jawans with better training and better shooting stance, along with letting them get familiar with the carbine.

Here's a kheybar pass area resident eating recoil of an AK.

View: https://youtube.com/shorts/RbPyYThilh0?si=D7qvkb1L7JCPI2B1
Here's a korean american, shooting AK.

View: https://youtube.com/shorts/0qEn0yhBaxQ?si=AkIWPeRGpFSRGT7l

Can't wait to fire the Kalashnikov in a couple months
It'll be fun
Some thoughts regarding that, apart from common "It fires INSAS spec ammo" etc

>in that pamphlet it's mentioned rate of fire in this is higher at 650 to 700 rpm, typical kalashnikov had 600 rpm, INSAS fullsized has 600 to 650 rpm

>a thing regarding Kalashnikov pattern design is, the bolt carrier with that attached long piston atop, makes its balance go slightly off centre, then when it cycles - a bullet is fired is first action, momentarily recoil due to bullet fired is reaction (and true recoil here), when it cycles at immediate moment is third action and literally slams hard to its back end is fourth action with their own reactions, then it slams forward is final action (and reaction etc)...

so all these things happen in split second moments in slightly off centre design of bolt carrier that also slams hard to receiver end and passes its remnants of kinetic energy to a shooter's shoulder...make it jump around, yes, and on full auto this is repeated again and again so there are further jumps

this couldn't really be called recoil but "muzzle climb", happens because of the way a kalashnikov pattern design firearm operates...and even on modern AK203 it persists

So overall we need comments from true, trained guys from armed forces or other shooters to have their hands on this and first fire semi-auto shots to give an idea of true recoil and muzzle climb with that, then fire it in bursts and full auto for better idea of muzzle climbs and "slams" of the bolt carrier on a shooter's shoulder

@Tactical Doge an opportunity for you here
Your knowledge regarding firearms is more than me, can't comment on the AK platform because I haven't fired it nor do I know the firing mechanism in detail, but from what I feel, the Insas when fired experiences recoil, which is not enough to put the shooter off balance, even when firing standing unsupported, or kneeling unsupported (which is when your Centre of gravity is going to be highest wrt your body, more chances of instability) your are momentarily thrown off target, but not enough for you to be unable to put follow up shots on target, even in full auto the weapon is reasonably controllable (which is the only other mode, I have rarely seen TRB functioning)
It might be the case that
1) the weapon is much lighter, therefore v1 is higher in m1v1=m2v2
2)shiity stance of the firer

Also to be noted, I have not fired more than 6-7 rounds burst with Insas on auto, like the gentleman emptying an entire magazine of an AK, I'd like to though, very much

If I ever get a chance to fire this weapon, I can comment authoritatively on its recoil
 
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Can't wait to fire the Kalashnikov in a couple months
It'll be fun

Your knowledge regarding firearms is more than me, can't comment on the AK platform because I haven't fired it nor do I know the firing mechanism in detail, but from what I feel, the Insas when fired experiences recoil, which is not enough to put the shooter off balance, even when firing standing unsupported, or kneeling unsupported (which is when your Centre of gravity is going to be highest wrt your body, more chances of instability) your are momentarily thrown off target, but not enough for you to be unable to put follow up shots on target, even in full auto the weapon is reasonably controllable (which is the only other mode, I have rarely seen TRB functioning)
It might be the case that
1) the weapon is much lighter, therefore v1 is higher in m1v1=m2v2
2)shiity stance of the firer

If I ever get a chance to fire this weapon, I can comment authoritatively on its recoil
yep, INSAS is quite chonky and mass-ey build of kalashnikov that helps a lot with recoil + muzzle climb mitigation,

for some basic comparison, for some ~18 inch of barrel length,
>Galil ARM, which is LMG-esque full length build of rifle with a folding bipod, and milled receiver construction at it
mass = 4.35 KG
>INSAS 1B, just full length assault rifle in stamped sheet metal construction (should be lighter),
mass = 4.018 KG

🤷‍♂️

so it's a hunk-o-metal build that mostly keeps recoil and muzzle climb in control as an advantage, rest it's just...yeah you know better
 

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