Indian Small Arms and Weapons

[shuvo@y2k10]

Now that Sig-716 order is already placed, I think GOI should pursue a TOT agreement with Sig-Sauer, for license manufacturing, and mid-life support to their rifle in Indian service. Similar to that of IRRPL.

Of the 1.45L rifles, 1.39L is with the Army. That is enough to equip at least 50% of the Infantry, AFAIK.

 

[Baseplate]

There seems to be total lack of clarity on part of Indian Army (IA) regarding their actual doctrinal requirement regarding small arms. However, they were very firm on one issue. Dump the Insas and its successors (including anything that Indian private players comes up with), and import foreign maal.

GoI went ahead with the plan, to satisfy their perennial need to trying to appease Uncle Sam and Ruskis.


The Pakis use G3 as their standard assault rifle, and Type-56 as their carbine.

If we are trying to emulate that, then 6.5L order should have gone to Sigs and 1.45L order should have gone to AK-203. Not the order way round.

This also makes sense since we are trying to procure upto 40k potable MMG in 7.62*51mm, to replace the Bren and FN-Mag.


Also, the AK-203 is bigger in length than the Sig-716. We should have gone for their carbine version (AK-204).

Finally, if IA really intends to use the AK-203 in carbine role, then why is their another parallel procurement plan for 5.56*45 mm carbine?

Let me break it down for you .
Army has not yet cleared out what gun they are going to use for what role . In many present units all of them are running Sigs while ideally the ratio must be around 40:60 . While in some all are running AK while in some all are using INSAS .
They don't seem to have a concept of using one specific gun for one specific role . Like using Sigs for the support squad that will use it to engage accurately at distance while men with AKs will work up close .

Carbines are a far cry , and will be issued to everyone from truck drivers to artillery men .

 

[Baseplate]

View: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/p0RRvB3Pkw0

this is roughly how a platoon attack is done , thus the platoon must be configured accordingly .

In our case :


This composition has many loopholes and does not properly exploits the capabilities of Sig neither covers its weaknesses .

A GOOD SQUAD WEPON PROFILE in our case (according to me ( i am no pro , just a retard ).

Two teams make up a squad, which has four to 10 soldiers. In an infantry squad, the teams divide duties: one serves as a base-of-fire element, while the other serves as the maneuver element. A staff sergeant is often in charge.

The base of fire element sets up an SBF position that provides fire support to the maneuver element that moves up to the objective to assault .
As per their roles , the base of fire element occupies positions that afford the best possible cover and concealment, a clear view, and clear fields of fire. They must provide good volume of accurate fire on the objective , for this role having guns that can effectively engage from a long distance accurately and possess good lethality is ideal . For this role Sigs with sights will work good .
Thus in our case 2 men with Sigs , one Negev and One RCL ( or replace RCL with a Sig and one Shmel/AT4 ) and one with AK 203(ammunition carrier for RCL or a standard ammunition carrier ) will be an ideal composition . Having a Sniper/DMR with SVD attached will also be good .

The role of the maneuver element that moves up to the objective to assault . This fight will take place up close and would need good firepower , thus using guns like Sigs that are bulky , have limited mag capacity and are not manageable in Full Auto is not ideal . For this job they need guns that are compact , easy to handle and control and have good capacity . Ak203 will be perfect for this job .
Thus in our case having 4 men with Ak203 (one/two of them with a ubgl or Mbgl ) and one Negev will be best .

In total
5 Ak203 (with red dots/holographics , one or two with magnifiers as per need ).
2 or 3 Sig716 with 4x .
2 Negev
1 RCL ( can be replaced as per need with Shmel/AT4/Man portable Mortar/MBGL/UBGL)

What do yall think , Correct or add on on this composition .

 

[Mr.Evil]

In our case :

View attachment 7811

you know my problem is not SIG I love that rifle it is a Gucci rifle if this squad structure was to be standardised it would be perfect 7.62x51mm for both MG and primary weapon for riflemen but now they have chosen a different round as standard which mix everything up

 

[Mr.Evil]

I think the only way iam seeing it right now which can work out

Standard 10 member section

Section Comd.&Sub Section Comd.-AK203
3 Riflemen-AK203(I also believe one of the riflemen will be a grenadier with UBGL/MBGL)
2 Designated Marksmen- SIG716i in DMR configuration with LPVO or atleast fixed magnification 4x/6x
2LMGs-Negev 7
1RL-Carl Gustav MK4

So suppose if during a mission they have to split up in “A” (section come.)& “B” (sub section comd.)

Team A
Section comd.+ 2 riflemen AK 203(1 Grenadier)
1 DMR
1 LMG
1RL (if required)


Team B
Sub sec comd.+1Rifleman AK 203
1DMR
1LMG
1RL (if required he will be used according to what part of mission is assigned to which team)

This is my personal opinion if you guys want to add you can.

 

[arjuntank]

Better we get GE 414 engine on time.

 

[Hawkeye]

Troops reported issues with its M-LOK handgrip it gets uncomfortable to hold without gloves for too long.

We are already procuring AK203 in 7.62x39mm so a repeat order for 7.62x51mm makes no sense it will complex our logistics even more.

Army said that they want to procure only AK STYLE Rifles because troops are not comfortable with AR STYLE Rifles so now they are contradicting themselves.

Sig 716i was originally procured due to the delay in production of AK 203 now that the production is on track and IRRPL is set to deliver 20k more AK 203s upto dec 2024 this again makes no sense.

Nothing makes sense in Indian arms procurement, if it happens after countless delays.

 

[Mr.Evil]

View: https://x.com/Viv_Krishnan/status/1828604061416857842

 

[vampyrbladez]

In early 1960s we adopted new SMLEs in 7.62x51mm and replaced our .303. Then came SLRs in the same caliber and not just being a standard issue rifle of army, it was also procured by police and CAPFs. To supplement the SLRs we adopted Bren Guns in 7.62x51mm, still our standard issue LMG. Then came FN MAGs or as called locally MMGs, from platoons to tanks to bunkers, everyone got a MMG in 7.62x51mm. Replacement of both Bren and MAGs; some 40 thousand machine guns are also supposed to be in 7.62x51mm. Not to mention whenever we'd replace SVDs it would be in 7.62x51mm only.

But ya, I do sometimes wonder whether there's enough ammo to sustain them for the next decade or not. Especially when we've started not just manufacturing NATO spec ammunition but exporting them to USA.

Indian Army Infantry Section - 1960s





Indian Army Infantry Section - 2020s

 

[truthsoldier]

View: https://x.com/Viv_Krishnan/status/1828604061416857842

Don't know when will this military hardware diplomacy and import fascination end especially when we have descent homegrown players. In any serious country PM or RM will force development and production of relatively low tech small arms in the country itself. We are a non serious country with no vision to be a serious hard power.

 

[jaijaganath]

Don't know when will this military hardware diplomacy and import fascination end especially when we have descent homegrown players. In any serious country PM or RM will force development and production of relatively low tech small arms in the country itself. We are a non serious country with no vision to be a serious hard power.

When a nation keeps its sword and industry on the table of negotiation it is destined to be __________(samajh lo)

 

[Mr.Evil]

View: https://x.com/ShivAroor/status/1828721374753648702

 

[vampyrbladez]

There seems to be total lack of clarity on part of Indian Army (IA) regarding their actual doctrinal requirement regarding small arms. However, they were very firm on one issue. Dump the Insas and its successors (including anything that Indian private players comes up with), and import foreign maal.

GoI went ahead with the plan, to satisfy their perennial need to trying to appease Uncle Sam and Ruskis.


The Pakis use G3 as their standard assault rifle, and Type-56 as their carbine.

If we are trying to emulate that, then 6.5L order should have gone to Sigs and 1.45L order should have gone to AK-203. Not the order way round.

This also makes sense since we are trying to procure upto 40k potable MMG in 7.62*51mm, to replace the Bren and FN-Mag.


Also, the AK-203 is bigger in length than the Sig-716. We should have gone for their carbine version (AK-204).

Finally, if IA really intends to use the AK-203 in carbine role, then why is their another parallel procurement plan for 5.56*45 mm carbine?

It's a very bad idea to equip your entire military with battle rifles. Most engagements are at <250-300m where the 7.62x39mm AK 203 excels.

The Sig 716i was made for high altitude warfare where engagements of 500-800m are not uncommon. That's where a full powered round like the 7.62x51mm works great.

Since the AK 203 has a folding buttstock and the 7.62x39mm round is great in CQB, the Army is not in a hurry to add a 5.56x45mm carbine to the roster.

The 5.56x45mm round is effective at upto 400-500m but lacks the punch of the 7.62x39/51mm rounds. It's best served for special forces and mechanised infantry.

The Negev 7 replacing the L4 Bren is a logical choice really.

 

[Mr.Evil]

He is not holding back this time
Let him cook

View: https://x.com/Viv_Krishnan/status/1828799427001061738

View: https://x.com/Viv_Krishnan/status/1828871526684471674

 

[Anants]

Indian weapon maker raises several points after govt orders 73,000 more guns from US

SSS Defence CEO Vivek Krishnan laments that India ordered 73,000 more SIG716 rifles from the US instead of opting for made in India riffles | OpIndia News

www.opindia.com

 

[Noob]

He is not holding back this time
Let him cook

View: https://x.com/Viv_Krishnan/status/1828799427001061738

View: https://x.com/Viv_Krishnan/status/1828871526684471674

Hell yes cook these Twitter frauds brother you are good enough to export your systems and maintain logistics and supply chain best part is he isn't even asking for them to accept his guns he is just asking them to compare the results of imported systems and post the results in public sector but ofc that won't happen

 

[Noob]

View: https://x.com/force82323/status/1828780381233123420?t=KtvOWjRtN9UHrsDiXo4-Hg&s=19

 

[ezsasa]

India is a defence exporter now, it's early days, interactions with industry is happening more frequently now, but methods have to be figured out to handle clarifications as well.

thinking heads at IA will need to review their SOPs, there are not old days when whatever differences they had with OFB, could be taken up behind closed doors, and be done with it.

since private industry is getting involved, a level of transparency is expected. private industry does not use taxpayers money, that can be brushed under the carpet using bureaucratic red tape. Private Industry needs clarity, so that they can plan their finances, in a country where cost of capital is not cheap, this matters.

information vaccum creates confusion in social media age, chances of things being taken out of context is higher now. even an article in a journal from official source can close this issue, no journos and PR wallahs please.

 

[Ayan Barat]

India is a defence exporter now, it's early days

And perhaps in the most vulnerable phase where it'll either make us or break.

Remember we are a very huge IT exporter for a very long time too. But compared to the kind of industry leading work being done in Silicon Valley or Tel Aviv we've become what's best known as IT-Coolie...where we do menial jobs because no-one else wants to do them.

If this new found capital inflow we're getting from defence export is not reinvested hundred percent in R&D or infrastructure development and instead enjoyed as profits then we'd become global leader in defence technologies like screw, casting, harness, propellant, ammunitions, assembly...

 

[ezsasa]

And perhaps in the most vulnerable phase where it'll either make us or break.

Remember we are a very huge IT exporter for a very long time too. But compared to the kind of industry leading work being done in Silicon Valley or Tel Aviv we've become what's best known as IT-Coolie...where we do menial jobs because no-one else wants to do them.

If this new found capital inflow we're getting from defence export is not reinvested hundred percent in R&D or infrastructure development and instead enjoyed as profits then we'd become global leader in defence technologies like screw, casting, harness, propellant, ammunitions, assembly...

India is a state capitalist country, it's the gormint that decides whether to make or break an industry. so ironically it's the voters who unknowingly decide which industry fails.

this argument of IT-coolie sounds legit for now, but it may not hold true in the long run. german industry for a long time before ww2 was china of europe, their speciality was low cost mass produced goods, circumstances provided them an opportunity to alter their industry model to focus on high value engineering goods. this is to say, these are cycles, sometimes go beyond our lifetimes, no point beating ourselves about it.

as far as R&D private defence industry goes, it may take some years before they have enough cashflow to invest in R&D as a norm, for now it's DRDO I.Ps and private manufacturing that seems to be the strategy. again this cycle will have to play itself out. in SSS's case, their counterpart of old OFB legacy, OFB effed up so much in the past, unfortunately SSS defence is bearing the brunt of it now. if SSS was DRDO's counterpart in product categories, vivek would have been a relatively happy than he is now.

ultimately it's a proper military conflict that creates the momentum for a defence industry to move from one stage to the next higher level. we are still in the post-kargil phase, those recommendations are still in the process of being implemented.