Indo Pak Border & LOC

[Patriots]

In a full scale war pakistan has no chance....in a skirmish they can win someday

 

[maximus777]

In a full scale war pakistan has no chance....in a skirmish they can win someday

There is no full-scale war between 2 nuke powers. It will always be a short sharp skirmish like Nowshera in 2019. They will pull a mickey out of us by shooting down a 70s-80s relic and parading our officer. In a few years from now, when Lendu 5th gen aircraft from PLA will be in PAF service, IAF will have its panties in a twist again since we would still be deliberating on MRFA.

 

[eastern_bhartiya]

There is no full-scale war between 2 nuke powers. It will always be a short sharp skirmish like Nowshera in 2019. They will pull a mickey out of us by shooting down a 70s-80s relic and parading our officer. In a few years from now, when Lendu 5th gen aircraft from will be in PAF service, IAF will have its panties in a twist again since we would still be deliberating on MRFA.

whats why artillery is so important in places like LOC, good barrage from our side can cause massive causalities on their side.

 

[Ultraman]

damn , pakistan begging for flag meeting , no casualties from cross border firing on our side . trts getting roasteed left and right .

i think its over for them

PLA bending the knee in himalayas. pak army getting a@@ r@@@@ at loc and baloch every month.

i think this is it . no more war or conflict . moving fowrads its all gonna be boring peace.

Spoiler

 

[maximus777]

whats why artillery is so important in places like LOC, good barrage from our side can cause massive causalities on their side.

To win a propaganda war, you need evidence and not trust me bro sources even if the claims are legit. I dont think the world is convinced either about the efficacy of the Balakot strikes or shooting down of F16 with Mig21. I am sure Pak army will get mauled with arty strikes, but they will simply brush it under the carpet. A few Abduls taken out means nothing to them. We need public humiliation like destroyed infra, crash wreckage, POWs etc. without which it's a no body, no crime situation. We need a flattened Pindi HQ and Sargodha for a Pulwama or 26/11. Does the Indian dispensation have the testicular fortitude for it?

 

[eastern_bhartiya]

To win a propaganda war, you need evidence and not trust me bro sources even if the claims are legit. I dont think the world is convinced either about the efficacy of the Balakot strikes or shooting down of F16 with Mig21. I am sure Pak army will get mauled with arty strikes, but they will simply brush it under the carpet. A few Abduls taken out means nothing to them. We need public humiliation like destroyed infra, crash wreckage, POWs etc. without which it's a no body, no crime situation. We need a flattened Pindi HQ and Sargodha for a Pulwama or 26/11. Does the Indian dispensation have the testicular fortitude for it?

you are right about the pak army part, when they got their ass handed over to them in a recent ceasefire violation with 5 reported KIA ( meaning 10+ in reality) their establishment telegram groups started using army infirmary photos and stuff from like 5+ years ago to claim that there have been 10+ indian KIAs, but thing that has changed from before is , a large portion of pak awaam who used to gobble up any thing pakfauj used throw, now starts asking question, even under a tweet with same propoganda bunch of Imrandu supporter were claiming that modi and asim munir are doing this in collaboration to improve image of pak army and distract pak awaam.

 

[vampyrbladez]

Let us breakdown the comparative advantages of India and Pakistan for a better understanding of conventional warfare capabilities.

Army

Artillery: Pakis have more self propelled howitzers as of now... both tracked & mounted.

• Pakis have more 155mm self propelled artillery (tracked/motorized) for the next 3-4 years but after that the advantage will be overwhelmingly in favor of India.
• 105mm artillery is not being counted since it is Battalion HQ level artillery support and we are considerig Division HQ artillery instead.

The following is as of 2024.

• Towed Artillery :

- M198 (148) 155mm : Range of ~22 Km
- M114 (144) 155mm : Range of ~ 14.6 Km
- Type 59-1 (410) 130mm : Range of 27.5-35 Km
- Type 86 (80) 122mm : Range of ~15 Km
- Type 54-1 (490) 122mm : Range of ~11.8 Km

Total : 155mm (292) + 130mm (410) + 122mm (570) = 992

• Towed Artillery :

- M777 (145) 155mm : Range of ~30-40 Km
- Haubits Bofors FH77 B02 (200) 155mm : Range of ~24 Km
- Dhanush (24+) 155mm : Range of ~42 Km
- Soltam M-46 (180) 155mm : Range of ~39 Km
- Sharang M-46 (26+) : Range of ~39 Km
- M-46 (1000) 130mm : Range of ~27.5-35 Km

Total : 155mm (575) + 130mm (1000) = 1575

Comments : In terms of 155mm towed artillery India is leading here marginally. In terms of 130mm towed artillery the advantage is decisive. Advantage

• Self-propelled Artillery :

- M109A2/L/A5 (438) 155mm : Range of ~18.1-23.5 km
- PL-15 (164) 155mm : Range of ~23.5-50 km

Total : 155mm (438) + 155mm (164) = 602

• Self-propelled Artillery :

- K9 Vajra-T (100) 155mm : Range of 38 Km

Total : 155mm (100)

Comments : In terms of 155mm self propelled artillery Pakistan has a decisive advantage. Advantage

• Rocket Artillery :

- A-100E (450+) 300mm : Range of ~120 Km
- PHL-81 "Azar" (52+) 122mm : Range of ~40 Km
- Gazab/BM-21 Grad (100 ?) : Range of ~40 Km

Fatah 1/2 numbers have not been disclosed since their induction in 2024 and are possibly used for tactical strikes like the Iskander and Kinzhal as used by the Russians in Ukraine or the HIMARS by the Ukrainians.

Total : 300mm (450) + 122mm (152) = 602

• Rocket Artillery :

- Pinaka MRBL (108+) 214mm : Range of 37.5 km to 75 km/ 90 Km
- BM-21 Grad (150) 122mm : Range of ~40 Km
- Smerch 9K58 MBRL (42) 300mm : Range of 90 Km

Pralay (370+) and BrahMos (360+) missiles are to be used by the Indian Army in the same way as the HIMARS and Iskandar as a tactical weapon.

Total : 300mm (42) + 214mm (108) + 122mm (150) = 300

Comments : In terms of 300mm rocket artillery Pakistan has a decisive advantage. In terms of 214mm rocket artillery India has a major advantage due to guided munitions in the HIMARS class. In terms of 122mm rocket artillery India and Pakistan are matched. Inconclusive.

• In the next 3-4 years deliveries of 307 155mm ATAGS (100+ guns/year production)
• In the next 2 years deliveries of the 100 K9 SPG will be completed and another 100 will be ordered which will likely be delivered before 2030
• By 2027-28 orders for the 114 Dhanush and 300 Sharang will have been completed. Sharang may see additional orders.
• 400+ TGS likely by 2030.
• MGS production to start before 2030.
• 6 additional Pinaka regiments by 2028 with another 12 well underway by early 2030s.

Conclusion : India has the obvious edge in terms of conventional artillery both quantitively and qualitatively in comparison to Pakistan. By 2030 this will become an overwhelming advantage in favor for India.

Infantry: for that refer to the infantry modernisation thread... the less said the better & am not claiming that pakis are better in this regard.

You can refer to the following post of mine for a quick comparison between the infantry of the two armies.

The Indian Army quite possibly used the Pakistan Army as their baseline for equipping the average 'Jawan'. Just compare how similar the two armies look barring camo.

Indian Army

• Sig 716i (Battle Rifle) - 7.62x51mm
• AK 203 (Assault Rifle) - 7.62x39mm
• Negev 7 (LMG/GPMG) - 7.62x51mm

View attachment 27242

Pakistan Army

• G3A3/M (Battle Rifle) - 7.62x51mm
• Type 56-1/2 (Assault Rifle) or VSK-100-2 (Assault Rifle) - 7.62x39mm
• MG3 (GPMG) - 7.62x51mm

View attachment 27245

Armour: I don't see any significant advantage... & Ukraine has blown away all delusions.

The following is as of 2024.

• 2nd Generation Tanks/T-55 Class

- Type 85 (268)
- HIT Al Zarrar (500)

• 3rd Generation Tank/ T-72/T-80 Class

- T-80UD (320)
- HIT Al Khalid (300)
- HIT Al Khalid I (110+)

• 3rd+ Generation Tank/ T-90/Leopard II Class

- VT-4/ Haider (119)

Total : 2nd (768) + 3rd (730) + 3rd+ (119) = 1617

• 3rd Generation Tank/ T-72/T-80 Class

- T-72 Ajeya Mk2 (1400)
- T72M1 (1018 ?)

• 3rd+ Generation Tank/ T-90/Leopard II Class

- Arjun MK1 (118)
- Arjun MK1A (2)
- T 90 (~1350)

Total : 3rd (2418) + 3rd+ (1470) = 3888

Conclusion : India has an overwhelming advantage and thus armor and mechanized units form the core part of our 'Cold Start' strategy and has spurred the development of Pakistani tactical short range (300-500 Km) nuclear weapons platforms. Post the operationalization of the DATRAN 1500 engines for the Arjun MK1A and the delivery of the remaining T-90 Bhishma MK3, this advantage will grow even further.

In terms of FPVs and loitering munitions, thanks to the private sector, the Indian Army has a massive advantage to the point where even China had to put cope cages on all tanks in the Tibet sector.

2. IAF

Fighters: 23.5 squadrons(not counting mig21 & Jaguars)... the .5 is a mirage squadron that is under strength.

AEWCS: The PAF has 9 AEWCS aircraft enough to mount a 24x7 airborne surveillance of their airspace on rotation... against 6 of ours which are not enough for even a single front.

Airborne SOJ/EW: non existent

Lastly... there are extreme deficiencies in short & very short range air defence capabilities... both qualitative and quantitative.

I will just put it at this, the IAF of 2025 is vastly better equipped (Rafale, S400, MRSAM, QRSAM, Astra MK 1/2, SDR, Akashteer, SDM, ALCMs) than the IAF of 2019.

Advanced ground based radar (Voronezh radar) installations, additional Netra Mk 1 and upcoming Netra MK2. More proliferation of EW systems and upgrades to Su 30 MKI (Virupaksha GaN radars) and 12+ more on order (deliveries starting 2027) and Tejas MK1A (83+97) deliveries starting this month (April 2025) are all great things to look forward to.

LCH is now on (156) so no more piecemeal purchases of gold plated Apaches.

Given how bullish HAL appears about the Dhruv, I guess it will be allowed to fly again. Not sure if the 'fix' is finally in.

PAF has around 18 F 16 BLK 52 and 20-30 J 10CE that are it's mainstay. Everything else is open season.

 

[Blademaster]

Calm down... India is as unprepared for war as it was in immediate aftermath of 26/11 attacks. Yes there have been new inductions on our side which have been more than compensated/neutralized by paki inductions.

Not even a single arm of the 3 forces have any substantive edge over their paki counterparts.

There was an edge in attack helicopters that too is not available at the moment with the grounding of entire Dhruv & it's derivates(Rudra) fleet.

Why don't you tell that directly to the Indian Army soldiers and see what kind of reaction you get?

 

[iNorthernerOn9]

Why don't you tell that directly to the Indian Army soldiers and see what kind of reaction you get?

Why should I?

It's the duty of honorable/glorified generals/bureaucrats/politicians to tell them the reality.

An average IA soldier is still lost in veerta/shaurya/parakram/balidaan... less realizing that these traits/ethics won't stand in face of tech advancements.

Since I posted a bit of uncomfortable truth... sabko zordaar mirchi lag rahi hai... the majority of the population is resistant to change... & the army is recruited from this very population... and it's showing in their condition.

 

[Blademaster]

Why should I?

It's the duty of honorable/glorified generals/bureaucrats/politicians to tell them the reality.

An average IA soldier is still lost in veerta/shaurya/parakram/balidaan... less realizing that these traits/ethics won't stand in face of tech advancements.

Since I posted a bit of uncomfortable truth... sabko zordaar mirchi lag rahi hai... the majority of the population is resistant to change... & the army is recruited from this very population... and it's showing in their condition.

 

[daya]

There is no full-scale war between 2 nuke powers. It will always be a short sharp skirmish like Nowshera in 2019. They will pull a mickey out of us by shooting down a 70s-80s relic and parading our officer. In a few years from now, when Lendu 5th gen aircraft from PLA will be in PAF service, IAF will have its panties in a twist again since we would still be deliberating on MRFA.

What was Kargil? No less than Full-scale war. Again Indian political and military leadership shown lack of will power..

 

[karn]

What was Kargil? No less than Full-scale war. Again Indian political and military leadership shown lack of will power..

Its was faar from a full scale war .. what are you even talking about. It was just 1-2 divs fighting in just one sector.

 

[jaijaganath]

Let us breakdown the comparative advantages of India and Pakistan for a better understanding of conventional warfare capabilities.

• Pakis have more 155mm self propelled artillery (tracked/motorized) for the next 3-4 years but after that the advantage will be overwhelmingly in favor of India.
• 105mm artillery is not being counted since it is Battalion HQ level artillery support and we are considerig Division HQ artillery instead.

The following is as of 2024.

• Towed Artillery :

- M198 (148) 155mm : Range of ~22 Km
- M114 (144) 155mm : Range of ~ 14.6 Km
- Type 59-1 (410) 130mm : Range of 27.5-35 Km
- Type 86 (80) 122mm : Range of ~15 Km
- Type 54-1 (490) 122mm : Range of ~11.8 Km

Total : 155mm (292) + 130mm (410) + 122mm (570) = 992

• Towed Artillery :

- M777 (145) 155mm : Range of ~30-40 Km
- Haubits Bofors FH77 B02 (200) 155mm : Range of ~24 Km
- Dhanush (24+) 155mm : Range of ~42 Km
- Soltam M-46 (180) 155mm : Range of ~39 Km
- Sharang M-46 (26+) : Range of ~39 Km
- M-46 (1000) 130mm : Range of ~27.5-35 Km

Total : 155mm (575) + 130mm (1000) = 1575

Comments : In terms of 155mm towed artillery India is leading here marginally. In terms of 130mm towed artillery the advantage is decisive. Advantage

• Self-propelled Artillery :

- M109A2/L/A5 (438) 155mm : Range of ~18.1-23.5 km
- PL-15 (164) 155mm : Range of ~23.5-50 km

Total : 155mm (438) + 155mm (164) = 602

• Self-propelled Artillery :

- K9 Vajra-T (100) 155mm : Range of 38 Km

Total : 155mm (100)

Comments : In terms of 155mm self propelled artillery Pakistan has a decisive advantage. Advantage

• Rocket Artillery :

- A-100E (450+) 300mm : Range of ~120 Km
- PHL-81 "Azar" (52+) 122mm : Range of ~40 Km
- Gazab/BM-21 Grad (100 ?) : Range of ~40 Km

Fatah 1/2 numbers have not been disclosed since their induction in 2024 and are possibly used for tactical strikes like the Iskander and Kinzhal as used by the Russians in Ukraine or the HIMARS by the Ukrainians.

Total : 300mm (450) + 122mm (152) = 602

• Rocket Artillery :

- Pinaka MRBL (108+) 214mm : Range of 37.5 km to 75 km/ 90 Km
- BM-21 Grad (150) 122mm : Range of ~40 Km
- Smerch 9K58 MBRL (42) 300mm : Range of 90 Km

Pralay (370+) and BrahMos (360+) missiles are to be used by the Indian Army in the same way as the HIMARS and Iskandar as a tactical weapon.

Total : 300mm (42) + 214mm (108) + 122mm (150) = 300

Comments : In terms of 300mm rocket artillery Pakistan has a decisive advantage. In terms of 214mm rocket artillery India has a major advantage due to guided munitions in the HIMARS class. In terms of 122mm rocket artillery India and Pakistan are matched. Inconclusive.

• In the next 3-4 years deliveries of 307 155mm ATAGS (100+ guns/year production)
• In the next 2 years deliveries of the 100 K9 SPG will be completed and another 100 will be ordered which will likely be delivered before 2030
• By 2027-28 orders for the 114 Dhanush and 300 Sharang will have been completed. Sharang may see additional orders.
• 400+ TGS likely by 2030.
• MGS production to start before 2030.
• 6 additional Pinaka regiments by 2028 with another 12 well underway by early 2030s.

Conclusion : India has the obvious edge in terms of conventional artillery both quantitively and qualitatively in comparison to Pakistan. By 2030 this will become an overwhelming advantage in favor for India.



You can refer to the following post of mine for a quick comparison between the infantry of the two armies.






The following is as of 2024.

• 2nd Generation Tanks/T-55 Class

- Type 85 (268)
- HIT Al Zarrar (500)

• 3rd Generation Tank/ T-72/T-80 Class

- T-80UD (320)
- HIT Al Khalid (300)
- HIT Al Khalid I (110+)

• 3rd+ Generation Tank/ T-90/Leopard II Class

- VT-4/ Haider (119)

Total : 2nd (768) + 3rd (730) + 3rd+ (119) = 1617

• 3rd Generation Tank/ T-72/T-80 Class

- T-72 Ajeya Mk2 (1400)
- T72M1 (1018 ?)

• 3rd+ Generation Tank/ T-90/Leopard II Class

- Arjun MK1 (118)
- Arjun MK1A (2)
- T 90 (~1350)

Total : 3rd (2418) + 3rd+ (1470) = 3888

Conclusion : India has an overwhelming advantage and thus armor and mechanized units form the core part of our 'Cold Start' strategy and has spurred the development of Pakistani tactical short range (300-500 Km) nuclear weapons platforms. Post the operationalization of the DATRAN 1500 engines for the Arjun MK1A and the delivery of the remaining T-90 Bhishma MK3, this advantage will grow even further.

In terms of FPVs and loitering munitions, thanks to the private sector, the Indian Army has a massive advantage to the point where even China had to put cope cages on all tanks in the Tibet sector.



I will just put it at this, the IAF of 2025 is vastly better equipped (Rafale, S400, MRSAM, QRSAM, Astra MK 1/2, SDR, Akashteer, SDM, ALCMs) than the IAF of 2019.

Advanced ground based radar (Voronezh radar) installations, additional Netra Mk 1 and upcoming Netra MK2. More proliferation of EW systems and upgrades to Su 30 MKI (Virupaksha GaN radars) and 12+ more on order (deliveries starting 2027) and Tejas MK1A (83+97) deliveries starting this month (April 2025) are all great things to look forward to.

LCH is now on (156) so no more piecemeal purchases of gold plated Apaches.

Given how bullish HAL appears about the Dhruv, I guess it will be allowed to fly again. Not sure if the 'fix' is finally in.

PAF has around 18 F 16 BLK 52 and 20-30 J 10CE that are it's mainstay. Everything else is open season.

In this entire equation u will not find that we are fighting with a country that has less than 10 times of our economy

Artillery is the place where mass induction is the easiest and results are phenomenal

Its a shame we are lagging behind in artillery and mrls
We have industry techa and money but still we are lagging
That shows that these guys even after kargil haven't understood the importance of artillery or they are doing it in purpose to benefit certain sections

And airforce we need not speak about it