LCA TEJAS MK-I & MK-IA: News and Discussion

[Spitfire IX]

mate only thi g that will happen is iaf will push lca and kaveri into limbo.. and will go in full sapport to french/ruskie/isnglistani imporrt mode.

How can IAF push LCA into limbo? 83 were ordered, are being built and will be delivered. Is IAF going to freeze their use when there is a severe shortage of fighters in IAF?

Kaveri is different. It is a project where it is very difficult to predict when it will be completed or if it will ever produce a viable engine. A 1980's technology engine appearing in the 2030's may work perfectly well but not be a viable choice to use in aircraft to be produced in the 2030's.

 

[Satish Sharma Ji]

How can IAF push LCA into limbo? 83 were ordered, are being built and will be delivered. Is IAF going to freeze their use when there is a severe shortage of fighters in IAF?

Kaveri is different. It is a project where it is very difficult to predict when it will be completed or if it will ever produce a viable engine. A 1980's technology engine appearing in the 2030's may work perfectly well but not be a viable choice to use in aircraft to be produced in the 2030's.

You know what u try to diss kaveri everytime calling 1980s technology who told u it's 1980s tech.
Post 2010 many new technologies where developed which are now integrated in new dry kaveri. And afterburner section is coming from brahmos aerospace..
It won't be as good as error 404 but it would at par with thrust in regards. It won't have 6000hrs life but it will be much better for us.
Other than life it wouldn't lack anywhere when compared to f404.
And post 2030 we be either manufacturing f414 and safran jv will be going on this two things will brings us at very good position.

 

[Spitfire IX]

You know what u try to diss kaveri everytime calling 1980s technology who told u it's 1980s tech.
Post 2010 many new technologies where developed which are now integrated in new dry kaveri. And afterburner section is coming from brahmos aerospace..
It won't be as good as error 404 but it would at par with thrust in regards. It won't have 6000hrs life but it will be much better for us.
Other than life it wouldn't lack anywhere when compared to f404.
And post 2030 we be either manufacturing f414 and safran jv will be going on this two things will brings us at very good position.

I don't dismiss Kaveri. I suggest that GOI should invest to get it finished. I suggest that the project should be managed in a competent manner. I suggest that incompetents involved should be replaced with competents. I suggest taking the steps needed to get Kaveri to the point where it can be used in a fighter. That was and remains the aim, as far as I know.

I definitely do not know exactly how much modern tech is incorporated in Kaveri. Has it got single crystal fan blade or blisk technology etc? Sure, all it needs to do for Mk1A is to produce sufficient thrust reliably at an acceptable rate of fuel consumption for an acceptable number of hours. That is good enough for India's immediate needs, isn't it? GOI has failed to invest enough to get it to that point yet. Perhaps GTRE has not been good at managing the development either.

Regarding F414, TOT is limited to manufacturing TOT, isn't it?

I do not think that any OEM will be passing on enough technology in a jv for India to design, develop and manufacture its own engines. Why should they? India cannot make an engine for AMCA. It is in a position where it has to accept whatever the foreign OEM's are prepared to offer.

I think that India is kidding itself if it thinks it will magically be able to develop its own engines through ToT. If it wants to be able to develop its own engines I think that GOI belatedly needs to start investing billions of dollars over perhaps a decade or two to develop the technologies required.

 

[Nutcracker]

View: https://x.com/NewsIADN/status/1842423034814066742

Bootyful but CGI..

 

[Anants]

How can IAF push LCA into limbo? 83 were ordered, are being built and will be delivered. Is IAF going to freeze their use when there is a severe shortage of fighters in IAF?

Kaveri is different. It is a project where it is very difficult to predict when it will be completed or if it will ever produce a viable engine. A 1980's technology engine appearing in the 2030's may work perfectly well but not be a viable choice to use in aircraft to be produced in the 2030's.

How are you going to build Tejas if GE engines are blocked according to original premise in the post which I quoted as response?

We had grand plans for Marut too. But lack of engines killed it. IAF stonewalled any fruther iterations. You can read mindset of IAF from Vijainder K Thakur blog who was first Marut pilot and later Jaguar Pilot.

It shall tell you IAF is complete oblivious of concepts like product development cycle, iterative development, development pangs etc.

 

[Satish Sharma Ji]

I don't dismiss Kaveri. I suggest that GOI should invest to get it finished. I suggest that the project should be managed in a competent manner. I suggest that incompetents involved should be replaced with competents. I suggest taking the steps needed to get Kaveri to the point where it can be used in a fighter. That was and remains the aim, as far as I know.

I definitely do not know exactly how much modern tech is incorporated in Kaveri. Has it got single crystal fan blade or blisk technology etc? Sure, all it needs to do for Mk1A is to produce sufficient thrust reliably at an acceptable rate of fuel consumption for an acceptable number of hours. That is good enough for India's immediate needs, isn't it? GOI has failed to invest enough to get it to that point yet. Perhaps GTRE has not been good at managing the development either.

Regarding F414, TOT is limited to manufacturing TOT, isn't it?

I do not think that any OEM will be passing on enough technology in a jv for India to design, develop and manufacture its own engines. Why should they? India cannot make an engine for AMCA. It is in a position where it has to accept whatever the foreign OEM's are prepared to offer.

I think that India is kidding itself if it thinks it will magically be able to develop its own engines through ToT. If it wants to be able to develop its own engines I think that GOI belatedly needs to start investing billions of dollars over perhaps a decade or two to develop the technologies required.

What we need is hot section technology & new CMC thing. Rest what we have is enough.
Ofc F414 manufacturing tot is limited to manufacturing but that would have some prospects for refinement in existing tech.
And also there were some talks for know how know why let's see. Ofc they aren't giving hot section core tech for manufacturing let alone they will give know how.
Anyways the western manufacturing process are superior and can be good for kaveri.

On the other hand you're right why should foreign vendor give us critical tech they have Invested there's no way it's there butter & milk.

The jv will only happen when they will be giving us the needed tech. & We are willing to pay for it we aren't asking for free: ) If we would invest half the amount we would there we can have result delivered but we don't have time & patience for that. The time period needed will be huge.

And if supposedly this jv happens it will further helps us in our programs.

 

[Spitfire IX]

The jv will only happen when they will be giving us the needed tech. & We are willing to pay for it we aren't asking for free: ) If we would invest half the amount we would there we can have result delivered but we don't have time & patience for that. The time period needed will be huge.

I think it is known that no OEM will pass on to another party the knowledge required to design and build a state of the art jet engine. I think that no OEM will pass on the tech needed by India to build a modern jet engine.

Instead of seriously trying to develop its own tech over a huge time period and at huge cost (as the established OEM's do), India chose to develop its own tech at tiny cost. It must have been clear over the decades that the approach was not working and would not yield results, yet nothing was done to change things - by either abandoning the project or radically changing the way it was run. Result: no engine even close to F404 in performance.

Having spent decades on Kaveri, it would be good to see something useable come out of it. I hope that a Kaveri 1 adequate for use in Mk1A, will be developed and put into production. What I would like to see is continued refinement of the engine to further improve it.

I cannot see any new projects producing results using the current model of everything being owned and controlled by GOI. In my view the western model of governments awarding contracts to commercial OEM's to both develop and produce engines has proved vastly more successful than the Indian model.

 

[Anants]

I cannot see any new projects producing results using the current model of everything being owned and controlled by GOI. In my view the western model of governments awarding contracts to commercial OEM's to both develop and produce engines has proved vastly more successful than the Indian model.

Thats because your Govt back your companies. Fully Support a product development cost. Once developed - at least and mostly assure some orders or deals to make proto development viable for private. And your private sector is willing to take risks by putting money in R&D - betting on long term profits and not just focus on YoY uptick in balance sheets.

Indian pvt sector is very circumspect in putting money in high risk high cost money projects which Govt is not willing to fund fully nor order later. Whats good news is though Kaveri Dry is going to be manufactured by pvt co called Godrej Boyce. Thats a first step. Right now at best Companies are geting know how from DRDO labs and productionizing things. Some examples of pvt public development and production cooperation has seen export success but not enough or no orders from forces who are still looking ways to import - Case in point Artillery and Whap.

ONly Navy is leveraging both pvt, public sector along with its own Naval design bureau to become builders Navy.

 

[Spitfire IX]

Thats because your Govt back your companies. Fully Support a product development cost. Once developed - at least and mostly assure some orders or deals to make proto development viable for private. And your private sector is willing to take risks by putting money in R&D - betting on long term profits and not just focus on YoY uptick in balance sheets.

Indian pvt sector is very circumspect in putting money in high risk high cost money projects which Govt is not willing to fund fully nor order later. Whats good news is though Kaveri Dry is going to be manufactured by pvt co called Godrej Boyce. Thats a first step. Right now at best Companies are geting know how from DRDO labs and productionizing things. Some examples of pvt public development and production cooperation has seen export success but not enough or no orders from forces who are still looking ways to import - Case in point Artillery and Whap.

ONly Navy is leveraging both pvt, public sector along with its own Naval design bureau to become builders Navy.

Does GOI award fixed price development contracts? I could understand companies shying away from that. I also recall reading a few years back that GOI was so many months late in settling bills from HAL that HAL had to borrow from the commercial banking sector to pay employees' salaries. Not an attractive customer to deal with!

It would be interesting to see the sales price for the engines (assuming Godrej Boyce has to buy in all the components). In 2021 India ordered 99 x F404 at a cost of a little more than $7 million each. Apples to pears, for sure but would still be interesting to know.

 

[Patriots]

View: https://x.com/rahulsinghx/status/1823701256084373513

Major Alexis Galouzeau, a French Rafale pilot who flew missions with and against the LCA, was impressed with the capabilities of the Indian fighter jet. "It has fantastic manoeuvrability, can carry out many missions and has superb playtime," he told me in Sulur

 

[Patriots]

View: https://x.com/hvtiaf_bharat/status/1826129869844939035

 

[Patriots]

View: https://x.com/officialTatya_1/status/1838258203697508818

 

[Nutcracker]

https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... 35194.html

Edit with link

 

[Spitfire IX]

With the delay in delivery of GE F404 I wonder if HAL is building Mk1A's without engines and storing them. With just one -IN20 engine available, an aircraft could be completed, ground and flight tested and then have its engine removed to be used to complete and test the next frame. It would not take many hours to install engines on the tested frames when they became available.

 

[Bleh]

With the delay in delivery of GE F404 I wonder if HAL is building Mk1A's without engines and storing them. With just one -IN20 engine available, an aircraft could be completed, ground and flight tested and then have its engine removed to be used to complete and test the next frame. It would not take many hours to install engines on the tested frames when they became available.

They stored them last time with FOC delivery.

I remember the photo with 6 near completion jets in the hanger.

 

[haldilal]

Ya'll In 1991, when the government was contemplating ending the LCA programme, Ratan Tata offered to take over and develop it. Would’ve been first big DCPP project back then.

 

[Vishnugupt]

Ya'll In 1991, when the government was contemplating ending the LCA programme, Ratan Tata offered to take over and develop it. Would’ve been first big DcPP project back then.

View attachment 11788

Not government but A Raja or Kalmadi who was a member of parliamentary committees

 

[Patriots]

View: https://x.com/FighterPiloting/status/1844569321156079730

Possibly, 2nd fighter of MK1A configuration took it's first flight.
https://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?p=2631421#top

 

[Cyclops]

Ya'll In 1991, when the government was contemplating ending the LCA programme, Ratan Tata offered to take over and develop it. Would’ve been first big DCPP project back then.

View attachment 11788

Ratan Tata - What a based guy, a based Indian.

India lost a real gem.

 

[Blademaster]

Ratan Tata - What a based guy, a based Indian.

India lost a real gem.

How so? He was retired for a while and wasn't doing anything. Yes he was a gem but the time has come and past. He lived a full rewarding life and contributed immensely to India's growth. Let's celebrate and honor his life by finding great talent to replace him.