Operation Sindoor and Aftermath

[Numero]

View: https://x.com/MeghUpdates/status/1930117506192068941
Tf is happening in the geopolitical scheme of things, we seem to taking L's in the international space. Is US hell bent on cornering India? What can you all make out of this move?

You think that buying Russian oil, weaponry have no repercussions? We need to stop whining & begging validations from them

 

[ezsasa]

Yes agree it was pretty much so. Especially when The Hindu, Barkha and even Aroor went overboard. It was timely swatted. It would have died down barring bloomberg gaffe. A smart previous used statement during ops on the line "All pilots returned unharmed during ops Sindoor" given as reply to Bloomberg and proceeded to answer same line to each and every variation of same question - would have further diluted opposition narrative.

But I guess as you said hopefully All shall learn from this incident and control and present information better cohesively next time.

let me end this convo with this..

Gormint has indicated officially, they want this story to be about terrorism. that's what gormint is talking about, that's what Indian ambassadors in other countries are talking about, that's what oppn. MPs going across the globe are talking about.

gormint will need help from indian public on this, on the message amplification front.

 

[Azaad]

now there is a gormint advisory, to MSM and SM not to inconvenience family members of national heroes unnecessarily.

My larger point was the inherent mistrust by the citizens in government information disclosure. Previously the role of disseminating such information was the sole preserve of the foreign media best represented here by the BBC.

During the Kargil conflict for the first time in living memory they were displaced by the local media , something no doubt achieved by design by the authorities who actively involving them in operations for which the IA did pay a price thanks to the over enthusiasm of some of them.

My guess is the then administration took its cue from the Gulf War -1 & of embedded journalists then who gave viewers back home an unprecedented first person view of the war unfolding within their drawing rooms.

Now US DoD undertook what they did then because they themselves were reacting to lessons learnt during the Vietnam War where they were at the receiving end of US journalists & media reeling as they were from one expose after another.

In 20 years our institutional memory faded or rather disappeared whereas it is still intact in the US for that's what they repeated in Gulf War -2 , the Iraq & Afghanistan wars etc . Co opt the journalists so as to control the narrative.

In other words better to have them within the tent pissing outside than have them outside the tent pissing in .

 

[whatever]

View: https://x.com/MeghUpdates/status/1930117506192068941
Tf is happening in the geopolitical scheme of things, we seem to taking L's in the international space. Is US hell bent on cornering India? What can you all make out of this move?

Context: https://www.moneycontrol.com/world/...ounter-moves-via-allies-article-13094301.html
It may have adverese affect with pakis pushing its agenda.

The other blows I was refering to were the IMF loans that were granted to Pakis at the critical time and us not being able to stop US form doing that.

 

[whatever]

You think that buying Russian oil, weaponry have no repercussions? We need to stop whining & begging validations from them

Yes we NEED to have some kind of leverage on the US or we will keep getting harassed through various means such as the trade policies, IMF grants to support the pakis.

 

[ezsasa]

In 20 years our institutional memory faded or rather disappeared whereas it is still intact in the US for that's what they repeated in Gulf War -2 , the Iraq & Afghanistan wars etc . Co opt the journalists so as to control the narrative.

In other words better to have them within the tent pissing outside than have them outside the tent pissing in .

in this case, alternate explanation could be that gormint saw what SM and MSM were doing to family members of col. sofia qureshi, and undertook remedial measures.

Indian media have a habit of parading(bordering on harassment) ordinary public who have found themselves under extra ordinary circumstances, ex: mother of nirbhaya(delhi 2012 case). forcefully being put in spot light takes it's toll on regular people, unlike special cases like that activist kid greta thunberg.

 

[Azaad]

in this case, alternate explanation could be that gormint saw what SM and MSM were doing to family members of col. sofia qureshi, and undertook remedial measures.

Indian media have a habit of parading(bordering on harassment) ordinary public who have found themselves under extra ordinary circumstances, mother of nirbhaya(delhi 2012 case). forcefully being put in spot light takes it's toll on regular people, unlike special cases like that activist kid greta thunberg.

To clarify I'm not focusing on the narrower aspects of the narrative war you're highlighting but was merely making broader points about our information strategy & choices.

 

[Savageking456]

Definitely facilitated by US
Remember the crypto deal?
We are gonna be propped as a terror hub in coming days and government isn't ready
We need to predict what's Trump's game plan here

And some where saying not to abuse trump dolund here when he stopped the pounding on pakistan
It seems clear that trump came there to save pakistan and not to solve conflict
Since pakistan was at clear disadvantage

 

[ezsasa]

To clarify I'm not focusing on the narrower aspects of the narrative war you're highlighting but was merely making broader points about our information strategy & choices.

i am combining both narrower and broader aspects of narrative war these past few hours, this convo started because people are upset that CDS did not pay attention to phrasing of a sentence during an interview with a foreign news organisation in a foreign land, and discourse is extrapolating a lot of inference at all levels.

Bharat is not a one trick pony like pakiland, for us everything is interconnected. i am trying to bring out the fact, how much inter connections there can be even for every incident, for the benefit of other members who have a curious mind.

 

[silentassassin265]

Yes we NEED to have some kind of leverage on the US or we will keep getting harassed through various means such as the trade policies, IMF grants to support the pakis.

Leverage is agreeing on brics common currency, russia and iran will be pushing for this as their dollars reserves are frozen we just need to convince other brics members to agree.

Alternative payment system is bigger issue for burgericans than any war or nuke

 

[FalconSlayers]

View: https://x.com/ajitkdubey/status/1930165304778469520

 

[ezsasa]

correct, this angle needs to be probed.
unfortunately we don't have enough experienced people, who are well acquainted on gora mannerisms , who can get goras to speak their mind on this, without putting the gora speaker on the defensive.

this is what i meant in that earlier post.
for all the gali swasti rao gets on her strategic takes, she seems to have this particular skill.
in this discussion, notice how comfortably the guy is speaking.
======

‘Analytical mistake to see Pakistan-Turkey relationship as a case of assistance’,warns Ilya Roubanis​

View: https://youtu.be/1FO6Q4TR4D0

 

[Master of Indus]

US of A and Orangutan is desperate for one victory or a lopsided trade deal to claim relevance in domestic politics of American.

The BS that Orangutan can stop Israel or Russia in 1 day is an egg on his face!

By doing all these shananigan he is making a fool of himself, India is not budging, I guess. They will play all their dirty games and prop up their pet dog paxistan to counter our moves, we just have to play accordingly, paxistan will again bite them on their arse as usual.

 

[ezsasa]

this is what i meant in that earlier post.
for all the gali swasti rao gets on her strategic takes, she seems to have this particular skill.
in this discussion, notice how comfortably the guy is speaking.
======

‘Analytical mistake to see Pakistan-Turkey relationship as a case of assistance’,warns Ilya Roubanis​

View: https://youtu.be/1FO6Q4TR4D0

one of the takeaways from this interview, is a reminder for us that PAF deputes their pilots to arab airforces, which explains their obsession with dogfights. arab military forces work in silos( as per israeli narrative), we can infer that for PAF to earn their $ from their arab akas, PAF pilots need to be projected as being very good in dogfights, hence PAF talking points focus so much on dogfights with IAF.

we used to talk about this PAF pilots being deputed to arab airforces thing up until a few years, slipped under the radar this time.

 

[notaname]

My larger point was the inherent mistrust by the citizens in government information disclosure. Previously the role of disseminating such information was the sole preserve of the foreign media best represented here by the BBC.

During the Kargil conflict for the first time in living memory they were displaced by the local media , something no doubt achieved by design by the authorities who actively involving them in operations for which the IA did pay a price thanks to the over enthusiasm of some of them.

My guess is the then administration took its cue from the Gulf War -1 & of embedded journalists then who gave viewers back home an unprecedented first person view of the war unfolding within their drawing rooms.

Now US DoD undertook what they did then because they themselves were reacting to lessons learnt during the Vietnam War where they were at the receiving end of US journalists & media reeling as they were from one expose after another.

In 20 years our institutional memory faded or rather disappeared whereas it is still intact in the US for that's what they repeated in Gulf War -2 , the Iraq & Afghanistan wars etc . Co opt the journalists so as to control the narrative.

In other words better to have them within the tent pissing outside than have them outside the tent pissing in .

i am combining both narrower and broader aspects of narrative war these past few hours, this convo started because people are upset that CDS did not pay attention to phrasing of a sentence during an interview with a foreign news organisation in a foreign land, and discourse is extrapolating a lot of inference at all levels.

Bharat is not a one trick pony like pakiland, for us everything is interconnected. i am trying to bring out the fact, how much inter connections there can be even for every incident, for the benefit of other members who have a curious mind.

And to add one more complexity to the points above about narrative and media management.
_________

We Indians have inherent distrust about government messaging which comes from commie pov, like we always try to find fault in government's talking points, doesn't matter if it impedes national security or not (apart from defence fan boys to an extent).
Everyone looks to scrutinize the claims or facts given by GOI.

If we trace each and every point from 22nd April you will see that from political, media, and each and every section of society have tried to bring government on backfoot in media management by imposing their on pov by twisting facts in their own minds while trying to understand the events happening, nobody tries to think practically instead they start thinking critically and try to find holes in the facts presented.

--------

Let me present a example, when Pakistan said we have downed this much of fighter jets and GOI by official press conference said we will not give out numbers or accept and deny on that, as the operation is not stopped yet.

But to accept it and continue on other points about the strategic changes which took place due to operation Sindoor, majority of our public was fixated on fighter jets, and nobody paid attention to the targets we struck with pin point accuracy each and every thing was about fighter jets in public discourse.

We could see from DFB as well, after two three different posts we would be getting edited images being debated again and again and many were not even ready to accept the fact that those images were fake. this is the level at which our public thinks, they always try to find fault in each and everything.

So all in all I am sure we may never have complete control on narrative space till our public accepts the different pov and not muddle the different pov by adding in unnecessary narratives and complicating the things much more.

 

[Neil (नील/Нил)]

Yikes! It seems the recent statements by our CDS has indeed stirred a Hornet's nest here! While not trying to spark a new debate about that again, I think it's time I address a few things to the crowd here.

Spoiler

LONG POST ALERT

Firstly I would want to briefly talk About CDS Anil Chauhan and his words.
CDS Anil Chauhan made many statements after Operation Sindhoor was carried out, I will quote a few of them here and elaborate on them.

"Losses are not important, outcomes are"
The CDS is completely right here. Losses are not important, what matters is whether or not we achieved our strategic objectives. Which we did as a result of this operation. It doesn't matter how much Pakistanis try to deny it and paint a different picture about the whole conflict but they were humiliated left in every possible way we could and this time we showed clear irrefutable evidence. It is evident that we did face a few losses, but we learnt from our shortcomings and have taken the necessary steps to rectify those strategic mistakes to prevent them from happening again in the future.

"Professional militaries not affected by losses"
He is again right. Professional militaries do not let losses affect them on the grand scale of things, just because one side has faced losses, does not mean they have lost. We have a big history of wars and battles fought, WW-1, WW-2 are testaments to this.

Secondly, My dear fellow Countrymen, now let me explain the actual-agenda of the enemy that we are facing here: The entity we call Pakistan and how shameless it truly is which people here seem to underestimate.

If tomorrow INS Arihant and INS Arighat simultaneously empty their entire stockpile of SLBMs on every possible location (Major cities like Karachi, Lahore, Faisalabad, Islamabad) in Pakistan with the addition of several nuclear tipped Agni missiles joining the attack, it is no doubt that the entirety of Pakistan will be reduced to an unrecognizable heap of radioactive sludge. Out of those 241 million or more Pakistanis, there will be some, probably a few handful of them which will survive and come out of the ashes. And those handful who survive, all they need to do is build a makeshift shelter from scrap, somehow get a Laptop or phone along with cellular connection and no sooner they get that they will run to twitter or YouTube and write "The Tea is Fantastic", "Kuch nahi kar paye tum endia walo". That is how shameless they are, Besharam the aur rahenge. Even after getting humiliated and defeated by India in every war, getting half their country torn apart into two pieces, they are still not able to accept the reality that they can never defeat us and still shamelessly proclaim themselves as the victors of every conflict with India.

India is removing millions & millions of people out of poverty every year, setting up new colleges, Universities and other Educational Institutes, improving and strengthening it's economy, improving the standards of living of its citizens, investing in its domestic infrastructure developments, strengthening it's ties with other major powers around the globe, making significant strides in STEM research especially in space exploration... The list goes on and on and on. And on the other hand, all that our neighbour has is "The Tea was Fantastic!".

That's the only purpose of a failed state: To act as an existential security threat to India. Simply put, they are a lost cause and we should not bother about them much, we better focus more on improving our economy.

Thirdly, and lastly when Air Marshal A K Bharti said "Losses are part of combat", he is right.
The amount of meltdown on this forum and specifically this thread over the loss of a few equipment is baffling. Keep aside the fact that we still don't know what losses we have faced yet, though it's certain that we have faced losses. Members here need to understand that this was a conflict and in every conflict there are bound to be losses. Look at Russia's war in Ukraine, they are losing men and equipment on a daily basis but is that stopping them from pushing forward and advancing? No. Losing just a few jets in exchange for the fiery wrath that we unleashed on Pakistan is completely justified. If someday we go to war with both Pakistan and China together, then we are going to see a lot more losses (Ships, Jets, drones, Soldiers, aircraft, tanks), I can't fathom what would be state of the same people on that "someday" who are crying over the few losses we incurred even after Bombing Pakistan's major airbases, destroying one or two of their SAAB AWACS, taking out PAF personal in the hangar, destroying several PAF F-16s, JF-17s, Mirages etc.

I think many over here are still stuck with a pacifist mindset, I won't criticize them because I am more or less myself in the same camp. I do not want a full fledged war because as a common civilian I understand the repercussions of wars and how a war can severely affect a country's Economy & population. But in the worst case where we have no other choice & where a war is inevitable, we will have to brace ourselves for it no matter what, be it as a civilian or a soldier in the military.

In 2019, when the IAF claimed to shoot down an F-16 using an R-73 from the MiG-21, they held a press briefing and presented evidence in the form of radar images corroborating the same too. Just wait for a few more days everyone, Indian military officials will (most probably) hold a press briefing and present forth the evidence of our kills and confirm the same.

Indian Military has made mistakes, but they have identified them In time and rectified/in the process of being rectified so that they are better prepared the next time. Accepting one's losses, accepting one's mistakes and improving on them are the hall marks of a professional military like ours.

 

[Anants]

let me end this convo with this..

Gormint has indicated officially, they want this story to be about terrorism. that's what gormint is talking about, that's what Indian ambassadors in other countries are talking about, that's what oppn. MPs going across the globe are talking about.

gormint will need help from indian public on this, on the message amplification front.

Ok my last take on this. I dont think Indian public does not its part in conveying terrorism emnating from Pakistan. You should see pitched battle between unorganized Indian folks waging individual narrative war with obviously establishment backed narrative bots and influencers. You have to understand DFB is minute sample pool of larger set of people interested in this domain. Most rely on Social media to get its feed.

I was surprised when some known (who do not passionately follow defense but are nationalistic) were getting more accurate news and videos from insta even before twitter, telegram, News or DFB picked up. I did my part swatting rumors circulating by providing Govt stance. But whats the Govt game plan to dominate this space in organized and stealth manner? It would be incredulous on their part to just trust public to do the right thing on their own.

But the point of discussion was - which you largely agree is PR training and PR RoE should be established by the Govt for entities under it. Any gaffe from Govt side can undermine many fighting lone narrative war for India - simply because latter are doing out of passion and not due to some training/bread & butter.

India is transitioning as a Defence Manufacturer and as power influencer. And that is very cut throat unforgiving domain. Effective PR'ship is one of the most important tool one most poses in this fight.

 

[Numero]

Yes we NEED to have some kind of leverage on the US or we will keep getting harassed through various means such as the trade policies, IMF grants to support the pakis.

There's no leverage. They're the most powerful country on earth. Just have to suck it up till we become a superpower who can see eye for an eye.

 

[A Chauhan]

i am combining both narrower and broader aspects of narrative war these past few hours, this convo started because people are upset that CDS did not pay attention to phrasing of a sentence during an interview with a foreign news organisation in a foreign land, and discourse is extrapolating a lot of inference at all levels.

Bharat is not a one trick pony like pakiland, for us everything is interconnected. i am trying to bring out the fact, how much inter connections there can be even for every incident, for the benefit of other members who have a curious mind.

Yeah, I don't know why some of us run after building image and international approval which we aren't going to get anyway. We Indians always run after image, e. g. India never attacked anyone, India is a peaceful nation, we won wars with Pakistan etc.

Getting white west's approval is like making your feminist wife happy which is impossible. We should work on our weaknesses rather than looking for greater image.

 

[ezsasa]

Ok my last take on this. I dont think Indian public does not its part in conveying terrorism emnating from Pakistan. You should see pitched battle between unorganized Indian folks waging individual narrative war with obviously establishment backed narrative bots and influencers. You have to understand DFB is minute sample pool of larger set of people interested in this domain. Most reply on Social media to get its feed.

I was surprised when some known (who do not passionately follow defense but are nationalistic) were getting more accurate news and videos from insta even before twitter, telegram, News or DFB picked up. Whats the Govt game plan to dominate this space? It would be incredulous on their part to just trust public to do the right thing on their own.

But the point of discussion was - which you largely agree is PR training and PR RoE should be established by the Govt for entities under it. Any gaffe from Govt side can undermine many fighting lone narrative war for India - simply because latter are doing out of passion and not due to some training/bread & butter.

India is transitioning as a Defence Manufacturer and as power influencer. And that is very cut throat unforgiving domain. Effective PR'ship is one of the most important tool one most poses in this fight.

let me take this opportunity to bring out a related point in numbers.

unlike other verticals of this country(ex: infra, electoral politics, manufacturing, economy, education, health etc.), national security is a space where there main play is entire handled by gormint, meaning there can be no other policy executioner unlike other national verticals.

and with in national security, people who are authorised to be the public face can be counted on fingers. PM, RM, EAM, three chiefs, CDS, HM, capf chiefs, defence secretary, DRDO chief, a few public facing think tank wallahs and a few journos with direct access. that's it, all put together less than 25 people. one layer down you have retired bureaucrats and military officers, another 10-15 people. all put together, just about 40 people for a country of 140 crore.

this is also the reason, defence fanboys end up over reading each and every sentence, because the sentences that come out are so few relative to other national verticals. this is a bottleneck, in an era of information warfare.

where as in other national verticals, the number of public facing stake holders are in thousands in each vertical, hence more info.

one take away can be, there is a need for more public faces(after back ground checks and vetting) trained professionally in public speaking and interaction along with their national security related primary profession.

this same bottleneck will also be faced by domestic defence manufacturers, as their industry grows.