Indian Politics and Democracy

[swesh]

@haldilal ask people here stick to the topics clean thread here

 

[Varzone]

Let’s not talk about caste census anymore in this thread, not sure how it is related to the terrorist incident and the aftermath.

 

[Nicky]

The same asshole politicians are heavily heavily invested across a number of companies. Why would they kill the golden goose by introducing reservations in the private sector?



Has it? Where exactly? Only TN was allowed an exemption through the 9th schedule. And even that happened in the Mandal era.

Because they have earned enough and more money can always be made as long as they have power.

So are you saying Congi is not corrupt with RaGa leading the demand to scrap 50% limit?

With Modi's tendency to give into opposition demands, watch it get breached soon. That's the whole point to make reservations in sync with population.

 

[Azaad]

since you're a catholic you might not know it,

but, some hindu scriptures (manu smriti, maybe? not sure this time) debarred brahmins from doing kheti as profession (personal consumption ke liye anaaj ugaanaa is allowed but not recommended, since a brahmin is expected to go around asking alms etc , doing kheti karm to earn sustenance is shunned, basically)
now this brahmins who adopted kheti as profession in naarth india side mostly yupi bihar got expelled from jaati by pundits of that time, made this block 'bhumihar' (bhumi-land, har-conquering sense) and went rather full gear and became landowning jameendaari caste eventually

toh tabse yeh jhagda chalta aaya hai ki bhumihar brahmin hai ki nahi - as in, most brahmins have done far worse adharmic things than just kheti so if they're still brahmins why aren't bhumihars?

I've heard a different origin story . Bhumihars are basically Kshatriyas who in order to escape Parshuram's vengeance gave up being Kshatriyas & turned Brahmins.

Since they were no longer kings, princes or feudal lords as they gave up their hereditary rights to the land they were known as Bhumi + haar . There's another story I read that they're the product of mixed marriages between Kshatriyas & Brahmins.

In any case they're an endogamous community. They don't have marital ties with other Brahmin groups & vice versa.

On the issue of caste based census I don't know why but my gut instinct says it will also be accompanied by an NRC as & when it happens .

 

[crazywithmath]

You are reading what you wish to. They aren't exactly the same, but there are too many similarities for comfort.

Now that Modi has agreed to caste census after calling people asking for it as naxals, how is BJP different in this regard?

If caste census will destroy India when the opposition does it, why will the result be different when. BJP does it?

Muh caste census/survey has been done time and time again. It did not destroy India in 200. It did not destroy India in 2007. It did not destroy India in 2011. Those statewide surveys (conducted in recent years) did not destroy India. And it won't destroy India now. It does not matter who remains in power.

 

[crazywithmath]

Because they have earned enough and more money can always be made as long as they have power.

When do you make more money? Amid a stable investment outlook? Or in a Lebanon tier shithole?

So are you saying Congi is not corrupt with RaGa leading the demand to scrap 50% limit?

With Modi's tendency to give into opposition demands, watch it get breached soon. That's the whole point to make reservations in sync with population.

Why are you shifting goalposts? You said the 50% ceiling was already breached, na? So I asked for an example (apart from TN, that is) - where is it?

 

[Nicky]

Muh caste census/survey has been done time and time again. Ir did not destroy India in 200. It did not destroy India in 2007. It did not destroy India in 2011. Those statewide surveys (conducted in recent years) did not destroy India. And it won't destroy India now. It does not matter who remains in power.

Every bit of reservation has damaged India.


View: https://x.com/JaipurDialogues/status/1917634581978833018?t=BNMePEaj9FKQ4bwGUw171g&s=19

 

[Nicky]

When do you make more money? Amid a stable investment outlook? Or in a Lebanon tier shithole?



Why are you shifting goalposts? You said the 50% ceiling was already breached, na? So I asked for an example (apart from TN, that is) - where is it?

Is Congi not corrupt as they are demanding reservation in private?

The census is the steeping stone to breach the 50%. Why is that hard for you to follow?

Why did Modi demonisze the opposition for demanding this when he does the same now?

 

[johny_baba]

I've heard a different origin story . Bhumihars are basically Kshatriyas who in order to escape Parshuram's vengeance gave up being Kshatriyas & turned Brahmins.

Since they were no longer kings, princes or feudal lords as they gave up their hereditary rights to the land they were known as Bhumi + haar . There's another story I read that they're the product of mixed marriages between Kshatriyas & Brahmins.

In any case they're an endogamous community. They don't have marital ties with other Brahmin groups & vice versa.

On the issue of caste based census I don't know why but my gut instinct says it will also be accompanied by an NRC as & when it happens .

this part of history i got it from certain maithil brahmin i used to follow on social media himself, he also said that there's some unnamed group of brahmins whose ladies were snatched by pissfulls as maal-e-ganimat later liberated by hindus probably rajputs and brought back to the dharmic fold in some arrangement - but he never named that group as to keep 'amaanya' of those folks

 

[Numero]

I am not saying the BJP hasn't done well or it isn't much better than any alternative. The point is with regards to reservation, the BJP is no different.

Why did they make SC/ST act more stringent when the SC had struck the draconian measure down. They are as anti GC as Congi, at the very least.

Ain't gonna deny that. That was a stupid act

 

[karn]

How does the sub categorization play out ? For me it looks like a cynical way to break cast consolidation it is easier to deal with lets say 100 small groups as opposed to 3 unified categories. If the broad caste based division of hindus is there will subcategorization do the same for large caste groups?
I am not making a statement .. I am asking . I am totally cluess about cast dynamics beyond being a GC that had to get extra high marks to get into college.

 

[Suryavanshi]

I've heard a different origin story . Bhumihars are basically Kshatriyas who in order to escape Parshuram's vengeance gave up being Kshatriyas & turned Brahmins.

Since they were no longer kings, princes or feudal lords as they gave up their hereditary rights to the land they were known as Bhumi + haar . There's another story I read that they're the product of mixed marriages between Kshatriyas & Brahmins.

In any case they're an endogamous community. They don't have marital ties with other Brahmin groups & vice versa.

On the issue of caste based census I don't know why but my gut instinct says it will also be accompanied by an NRC as & when it happens .

Genetically we cluster closer to UP Tiwari in terms of haplogrouos and our gotras overlap with kayakubj brahmin. Our ancestry can be traced back to Western and Central UP.

Tho in theory all Indian groups originate from pre Gupta era common caste groups which were a mixture of IVC people(25% AASI + Zargos) and Steppe Pastoralist.
Caste became more hard coded during gupta era.
We are later migrants to Bihar some 1000 to 700 years before current date.

 

[Azaad]

this part of history i got it from certain maithil brahmin i used to follow on social media himself, he also said that there's some unnamed group of brahmins whose ladies were snatched by pissfulls as maal-e-ganimat later liberated by hindus probably rajputs and brought back to the dharmic fold in some arrangement - but he never named that group as to keep 'amaanya' of those folks

No, what I'm reporting is from the mythological period. Bhumihars are known to be non vegetarians .Not all of them though.

How many brahmin communities do you know of who're non vegetarians especially from UP & Bihar, Maithil Brahmins not withstanding but then again they're shakta worshippers & priests.

Bengali Brahmins are a different category altogether.

 

[Suryavanshi]

How does the sub categorization play out ?

Just like it does in OBC.

There will be cremay SC layer. Than there will he SC 1: Jatav, Meena.
SC 2: Musahar, Dome

Add one more section if its convenient according to state.

 

[karn]

Just like it does in OBC.

There will he cremay SC layer. Than there will he SC 1: Jatav, Meena.
SC 2: Musahar, Dome

Add one more section if its convenient according to state.

Got it.. So all these groups will kang and turn on each other for level status. . This is infact a masterstroke by leaderji.

 

[Azaad]

Genetically we cluster closer to UP Tiwari in terms of haplogrouos and our gotras overlap with kayakubj brahmin. Our ancestry can be traced back to Western and Central UP.

Tho in theory all Indian groups originate from pre Gupta era common caste groups which were a mixture of IVC people(25% AASI + Zargos) and Steppe Pastoralist.
Caste became more hard coded during gupta era.
We are later migrants to Bihar some 1000 to 700 years before current date.

Both the aforementioned groups you've named are Saryupareen Brahmins. Brahmins from Varanasi & Eastern UP among the more orthodox & conservative ones tend not to have marital ties with these groups.

In the not so recent past these taboos were strictly followed. No clue why it's so?

 

[Azaad]

Got it.. So all these groups will kang and turn on each other for level status. . This is infact a masterstroke by leaderji.

No idea about master stroke but it's a damn good political manoeuvre which if the RSS & BJP play it right will get them a committed electorate or vote bank & enormous political capital.

Guys here can't understand basic politics. None of the political discussions I've had across fora in years have been analytical. It's always been about emotions & getting carried nay swept away by it .

I've already pointed out that reservations in most cases have already surpassed the 50% mark all over India once the EWS came into effect. Yet we've the same trope of concerns about reservations exceeding 50% across posts & pages . It's like a dialogue of the deaf

Reminds me about what a UK based Paxtani said to me - All sub continentals are a hyper emotional lot be it in India or Paxtan or BD or any of the other countries.

It's reflected in the discourse here as much as it is in the politics on the street

 

[vampyrbladez]

The writing is on the wall. BJP-RSS (even Congress) has a bunch of Hindu OBC supremacists who secretly want 70% reservation for themselves in Indian Public sector and the same in Private Sector. This seems to be following a salami slicing trend in recent times.

A slightly gray pill is :

• Lukewarm response by the voters to Bihar caste survey. Nothing much has changed in Bihar and its politics even 1-2 years after its much taunted caste survey.
  
  
• To cajole Southern States into accepting delimitations which could only happen after the next census. Southern states have been demanding caste census but are against delimitation. Modi government is hoping that the caste census lolipop will convince southern states for delimitation.

Ironically, the only thing stopping India from becoming sub-Saharan Africa/ South Africa is this institution and it's Triple Test and Doctrine of Basic Structure so hope that NJAC doesn't get rammed in under Ninth Schedule of Article 31B of the Constitution.

The "triple test" is a set of conditions established by the Supreme Court of India for providing reservations for Other Backward Classes (OBCs) in local bodies. These conditions, outlined in the case of Vikas Kishanrao Gawali vs. State of Maharashtra (March 4, 2021), require states to: 1) appoint a commission to investigate the nature and implications of OBC backwardness in local bodies; 2) specify the proportion of reservation required based on the commission's recommendations, ensuring it's not overly broad; and 3) ensure that the total reservation for SCs, STs, and OBCs combined does not exceed 50% of the total seats.

The Doctrine of Basic Structure, established by the Indian Supreme Court in the 1973 Kesavananda Bharati case, asserts that certain fundamental features of the Indian Constitution cannot be altered by Parliament, even through constitutional amendments.

The Ninth Schedule of the Constitution includes a list of Central and State laws that cannot be challenged in courts. Including the two amendment Bills in the Ninth Schedule would make them immune to legal challenges.

While Article 31A extends protection to ‘classes’ of laws, Article 31B shields specific laws or enactments.

• Tamil Nadu Act, 1994 - State Public Sector

In 1993, the assembly under Jayalalithaa passed the Tamil Nadu Backward Classes, Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes (Reservation of Seats in Educational Institutions and Appointments or Posts in the Services under the State) Act, 1993, now known as the Tamil Nadu Act, 1994 to keep its reservation limit intact at 69%.

The late AIADMK leader and former CM also ensured a special legal protection by bringing the legislation under a constitutional amendment under the Ninth Schedule to ensure that its validity could not be challenged judicially (for violating Articles 14 and 19 of the Constitution).

However, the Supreme Court, in a case in 2007 (IR Coelho v State of Tamil Nadu), ruled that the court has power to review any legislation added to the Ninth Schedule of the Constitution, and so the Tamil Nadu law that increased reservation to 69% is open to review.

Subsequently, the Supreme Court, in its judgment on July 13, 2010, held 69% reservation as valid. At the same time, the court ordered that a caste survey be conducted within a year and the quantum of reservation be decided based on that survey.

If the Tamil Nadu government does not submit the caste-wise population data, then there is a danger that the SC will strike down the 69% reservation.

• EWS Reservation (February 2019) - Public Sector

In 2019, the Indian government allowed a 10% quota in government employment and educational institutions for the Economically Weaker Section of the general category. This allocation is over and above the 50% reservation already in place for SC, ST, and OBC categories, ensuring that the latter remain untouched.
If you are from the general category and are aspiring for a government job or admission to your desired institution, you can benefit from this 10% EWS reservation, provided you meet the following eligibility criteria:

• Category: You must belong to the general category and cannot be from the SC, ST, OBC, or (in Tamil Nadu) MBC categories, as they already have reservations.
• Income: Your family's annual income must be less than ₹8 lakh. Families earning more than this are not considered economically weak.
• Land Ownership: If your family owns agricultural land, it should be less than 5 acres.
• Property: If you or your family owns a flat, its area must be less than 1,000 square feet.

https://dopt.gov.in/sites/default/files/ewsf28fT.PDF

• PM Jeevan Jyoti Bima Yojana (July 2024) - Private Sector (Partial)

The Centre’s reservation policy for Scheduled Castes, Scheduled Tribes, Other Backward Classes, and people with disabilities would be applicable to the internships offered under the Prime Minister Internship Scheme, top sources in the Ministry of Corporate Affairs (MCA) said.

Private companies participating in the PM Internship Scheme do not apply caste-based reservations in selecting interns from the shortlist (which has reservation applied by Government).

With the Centre mulling extending the ambit of the Prime Minister internship scheme -- whose pilot project was rolled out recently -- a survey has found that an impressive 81 per cent firms backed the government initiative, but over 70 per cent of them were willing to absorb 10 per cent of their interns as full-time employees

• Population and Caste Census (April 2025) - (Unconfirmed)

Union Minister Ashwini Vaishnaw made it a point to argue that the 2011 Socio-Economic and Caste Census (SECC) and caste enumeration exercises conducted by State governments were just “surveys”.

While the SC and ST lists for each State are singular and decided upon by Parliament, Socially and Economically Backward Classes (SEBCs) and Other Backward Classes (OBCs) are categorised separately by State and UT governments as well. The Central list of OBC lists 2,650 communities across the country while an independent analysis of State OBC lists showed over 3,651 communities categorized as such.

 

[Suryavanshi]

No, what I'm reporting is from the mythological period. Bhumihars are known to be non vegetarians .Not all of them though.

Non vegetarians diet in Bhumihars is a recent thing.
My grandad and great granadad never touched meat he was a priest in a temple, my father never did. I did because my mother's side did who had their own reasons. Maternal great grandfather was in military so he adopted such habits and some alcohol as well which later passed on to grandad who was in police. Maternal grandma never touched meat her entire life. And my Mami ji is a gurumukh who has vowed to never eat meat.

Bhumihars are not purely into prietely activities and are more outgoing than generic brahmins so we tend to adapt more to conditions.

Maithali brahmins have a chip on their shoulder so they cook up a lot of stuff, they are the ones behind mithila pradesh movement. Tend to be very purist and dismissive of others as well. Lot of liberal chutiyap from bihar is done by them not meaning we are somehow better because we gave india Ravish kuma, Kanhaiya and CPIm.

Just my two cents.

BTW here is some interesting data.

 

[vampyrbladez]

View: https://x.com/NewsArenaIndia/status/1917619673396383798