Operation Sindoor and Aftermath

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High rollers play for high stakes — the price of every misadventure will be steep. This operation has made it unmistakably clear: every misstep will carry a very high cost. That’s the critical difference this time around.
The intent is clear: mess with the bull, you get the horns. The response will no longer stop at the proxies, from now the masters behind them will be held accountable.

Kudos to the salt of the earth — the brave and steadfast entrusted with safeguarding the motherland. Their vigilance and sacrifice are the silent strength behind every line held and every threat answered.
 
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Long post warning.

I have been busy with work this entire week, so was unable to post, though I have been tracking the discussions here. There are some points that I need to spell out, which have been clear since long among any serious defense watchers.



1. About India's Nuclear Arsenal and its state of readiness.



I refer you all to this talk given at the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratories by Vice Admiral Vijay Shankar, Retd. Indian Navy, past commander of the Strategic Forces Command (SFC).



The Entire talk is a Gold mine of nuggets about the status, doctrine and the Release Authority of the Nuclear Command Authority(NCA) and its resistance to Decapitating strikes.



Specifically go to from 41:00 mins onwards for readiness levels, in fact immediately preceding that information was given about an "alternate NCA" in India, if the primary NCA is neutralized for some reason.





View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZpIrZvP0Co





The mating process in India's Nuclear arsenal is no longer physical where guys have to physically lug the warheads to the missile and mate it to the missile manually. He says the mating process is Electronic. NOT PHYSICAL. This means the readiness levels can be brought up form a very low level to a very high level VERY QUICKLY. So there is no way the pakipigs or chongs can surprise us.



In fact, every single doubt and query raised by every one here, about the pakistani irrationality and nuclear security have been answered in that talk. May be not directly but he alludes to the fact that there are factions inside Pakistan that will switch sides the moment it comes to Nuclear exchange. I HIGHLY recommend every single one of you to please watch the entire talk. It will be worth it.





2. The RR about Pakis getting Stealth fighters and we needing our own Stealth fighters to supposedly "counter" the Pakis, recommending emergency buys of F-35 or Su-57.



First, the operations of Chinese stealth fighters are extremely suspect and there are no reliable figures or parameters so that we may hold them to a standard.



There were already concerns raised that Chinese electronics industry has absolutely shit QC and the penetration of these into the Chinese MIC will cause their Military technology to suffer horrendous Failure rates. However, these were quickly quieted down by the US MIC ecosystem and Pentagon to hoard ever more massive budgets to combat the Chinese "Threat"



Please refer to the below blog.





Some Thoughts and Discussion

Air Power Focus. Myths versus realities in the use of air power from the past to the present day.

theboresight.blogspot.com



The Operative part is the following.



"

Programs that are part of China's modernization effort (produced or copied in China) will suffer at the hands of the PRCs' own massive counterfeit electronic IC and component industry. This industry uses salvaged (consumer-grade) e-waste that is then deliberately re-marked/miss-marked and offered as “new” MIL-spec items. The reduction in PRC military readiness and combat capability will be proportional to the degree of penetration of Chinese counterfeit electronic components into the PRCs own combat systems. This will include systems for international sale or developed by the PRC for others.



We expect Chinese electronic system failure rates on the order of 200% to 500% higher (higher) than Western or Russian systems/per operational hr. This could be an understated figure."



This was always a speculation but could never be confirmed short of China engaging in a military action of their own, post which the After Action Reports (AAR) would be analysed and the failure rates would be drawn up. Now the scenario is different post Operation Sindoor.



EVERY Single one of the Chinese systems failed. Moreover, based on the intact PL-15s that have been recovered, and the abject failure of the Chinese HQ-9 SAM (Copy of S-300), the above assertion needs to be taken more seriously.



So, we have absolutely NO IDEA how effective Chinese stealth fighters are. Moreover, the Chinese stealth fighters are designed around the Doctrine of "Frontal Stealth" . They are designed to be able to minimize their Radar signature while approaching the American CBGs and launch their Anti ship missiles. They are not all around fighters designed to operate optimally under all conditions and having the ability to undertake Multirole missions where they can be shifted from one theater of operations to the other or be used for Dog fights, where their features can overwhelm any 4.5++ generation fighters.



Their Probable usage doctrine calls for the use of groups of 30 or 40 J-20's or J-35's, to approach the American CBGs and launch their missiles. The PRC assumes that a lot of them will be shot down but even if they lose 40 J-20s in exchange for a Single American Carrier, then that is a win in their books. Good for the Chongs, but bad for the Pakis. Why?



Because the same reason why the J-20 or J-35 will work for Chings is the same reason it will not work for the Pakipigs.



What are the Pakis expecting from the "Stealth" Moniker fighters they get from China?



Ability to enter and leave Indian Airspace at will, be able to undertake strike missions or Anti air missions and return to base. That in short is the Paki wet dream.



These are the problems associated with that line of thought.



Stealth fighters are not countered by other stealth fighters. They are countered by VHF Radars that allow you to detect Stealth fighters, Plane mounted and Mast mounted IRST systems and Passive radar signal detection systems that are designed to track the IR and Radar Emissions without giving away their positions (thereby immune to pre-emptive SEAD using Anti Radiation Missiles), and a layered air defense that can stop both the fighter and the missiles it may launch.



Remember, the Pakis need stealth in our airspace to operate, we do not. Because we do not need enter their airspace to pound them. Pakis cannot do the same to us. But the Pakis are not going to risk their planes in suicide runs into Indian Airspace. They would want to ingress into Indian Airspace and launch their Missile payloads at either Ground targets or Air targets. But the moment they launch and turn around to RTB they will lose their stealth because of the above-mentioned Frontal stealth of the J-35 and the IR emissions from their Jet engines, even if they are on Supercruise ( which I highly doubt, given the limitations of the Chinese jet engines at high altitude tests). By the time they can enter their own airspace, Indian fighters on BARCAP would have launched IR guided missiles and Indian S-400s would launch their own missiles and every possible air base they could land at would have its runways cratered and their Fuel depots and other support infra turned into scrap by Ground and Air launched Missiles like SCALP, BrahMos, Rudram etc.



And moreover any missile that could be launched from a J-35 has already been launched at us from the JF-17 Blk 3 and they have failed miserably to score any hits whatsoever.



So, short of turning the plane into a suicide mujahid, what will the Pakis do with the "Stealth" J-35s ? Polish them up nicely to scare the uninformed Hindus next door? Any payload they could launch from that platform has already been neutralized by us in Op Sindoor, and even if they get Stealth fighters, no new missiles will come with them that can change the equation any more than what has already happened.



BTW, I do not think Chings will risk giving the Pakis J-35s, let alone J-20 because if they are shot down or disabled by using the above anti stealth playbook, then the entire Chinese military Superiority shtick will come crashing down faster than Dolund Tramp's wife's panties infront of a Camera in the 90's.



And, I do not think the Pakis can afford it either, especially not when their Agriculture productivity will crash considering the cancellation of IWT.



So, No. We do not need either the F-35, or Su-57 to counter any transfers of stealth aircraft from China to Pak. What we do need are the following.



1. UHF / VHF Radar systems and deploying them in strength.

2. Modernizing even more of our air defence grid, with indigenous SAM systems especially in the 1km to 100 km range, so that we may deploy them in numbers without constraints on numbers or availability. Have Bulk stocks of existing SAM systems.

3. Get the rest of the S400 delivered as soon as possible.

4. Make our own S400 equivalent, i.e Project Kusha, and deploy it in numbers.

5. Induct as many long-range AA missiles as possible, like, Astra Mk1,2, Meteors, and complete the testing and deployment of Project Gandiva (Astra Mk3)

6. Get some more Rafale as a stop gap measure and concentrate on churning out numbers of Tejas Mk1A, so that all our fighter fleet is modernized finally.



If you look at the news coming in these days, 1, 2, are in progress. Dovalji is on his way to Russia to make sure of 3. 4, 5 are in progress to be completed by 2026-27. 6 is also in progress.



3. RR about Fighter squadron numbers "dwindling"


Consider the following number.



The Payload capacity of a WW2 era Heavy Bomber like the B-29 is 9000 kg for 1500 km approx.



The Payload capacity of a Su-30 MKI is 8130 kg over 3000 km. And moreover, given the precise nature of Modern PGMs, what militarily significant damage could be done by a fleet of B-29s can be done by a Single Su 30 MKI.



What does this mean? It means that modern aircraft have capabilities that trump numbers, especially in mission specific environments.



We all seem to be under the misconception that Air Force's job is to conduct large scale air battles with regimented lines of fighters like the old medieval times, with Foot soldiers, Cavalry and Knights. That is not what multirole fighters are for, that is not what modern air forces are for.



What do we need the Air force or fighters multirole or air superiority for? Our primary adversary is China and Pak combined. Meaning we need to be able to do the following.



Defend against the Adversary's Ingress, foil his plans for attacking targets of importance. Offense against the targets of importance of the Adversary.

I postulate that a large part of the defense and offense part has been outsourced to our missiles, because of our lack of requisite aircraft numbers. It is a stopgap measure mind you, but it works.



With regards to the Interception of Enemy Aircraft, basically point defense like what was done by Mig 21s can be done by missiles and that will allow us stretch our limited fighter numbers a long way. The reason fighters were assigned the Point defense duty is the high failure rates and the unreliability of missile systems, which is not a problem for us. We still need the number of aircrafts up in the air, but they are going to be on CAP duty and not with pilots sitting in the cockpit waiting for the " go " to launch. Especially after the Induction of the High-Altitude Pseudo Satellite under development and the deployment of Airships with Radars as has already being done, we will have a full picture of the Adversary's Air space and the airspace around 600 km from our borders precisely in all directions. This improves our response time and takes care of defense.



With regards to offense, our existing missiles are enough to tackle the entire length and breadth of Pakistan. No part of Pakistan is out of reach. So, we do not need fighters venturing inside the Paki airspace to bombard Pakistan.



The Challenge with China is that it has way more strategic depth than Pakistan and the targets of importance in India are way more accessible to the Chinese from Tibet than Eastern China is to us. Remember our posture against China is dissuasive deterrence. Meaning, we need to just defend against the Chinese assaults making sure there are no major territorial losses and then undertake limited assaults across the LAC which result in the capture of Culturally significant Tibetan areas, which can then be used as a bargaining chip.



With regards to offense against Eastern China, I suppose that is why we have developed the Integrated Rocket Force. It will undertake offensive roles in the immediate battlefield, that would otherwise be done by Multirole fighters, and the existing Multirole fighter fleets of the IAF would retain the ability to swing from the Western theater to the Eastern theater on demand thereby neutralizing some amount of the Fighter squadron deficit.



So, in summation, yes there are less squadrons than desired, but it is not a panic scenario. It will be at least a decade of continuous work before we can be at 42 squadrons and no amount of money thrown at the problem will solve it in a hurry. The only thing we can do is make a lot of Tejas and iteratively improve it. Make the Tejas Mk2, AMCA and bring them online and in numbers in the next 10-15 years. We are also investing a lot in the HAL CATS program and the Ghatak stealth UCAV programs as they are easier to get in numbers quickly once certified. Once there are a large numbers of Ghatak stealth UCAVs, and HAL CATS WARRIOR, WINGMAN and Max versions available, many missions undertaken by the multirole fighters can be taken over by these UCAVs, especially Deep Penetration and Strike missions.



So, please stop falling into the narrative traps set by the Pakis and keep disrobing their Field Marshall without engaging in RR.
 
@ mods if you want this group to be a socially acceptable and want to see a nation with men and women work together to build.
Ban these clowns who think women can do their jobs.
This forum doesn’t new’s these people and our nation doesn’t need them.
Ah the English
 

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This Kanglu is butthurt because his father—whose nuclear umbrella was supposed to protect him from India—got beaten black and blue by India. Now, the entire nuclear deterrence has been reduced to an Islamic bomb.

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At least Kanglu has learned that both Pakistan and Bangladesh should come under China’s nuclear umbrella. Well, at least he’s learning something—I appreciate that.
 
History shows indian mens are nothing to be wary off they are short highted incompetent freaks and napunshaks who lost to nearly every invader throughout the indian history, most indian mens are born cuckolds this guys literally sold their women to Mughals and they themselves became their slaves lol.
Weren't you the guy who was repeatedly called out by members here for pushing the narrative of Rafales being downed by Paxtan till the moderators deleted your posts?

All those "Indian" men you're referring to who kept losing to invaders & sold their women to them becoming their slaves got a new country for themselves in 1947 which itself underwent another partition in 1971.

It's called Paxtan & BD. As far as Paxtan goes the majority ethnicity there - the Punjabi Musalmaan also got categorised as a Martial Race by the British without clarifying which war/s was it they won .

Hell if they were truly a Martial Race they wouldn't have converted nor lands to their east be pillaged. It's because they surrendered every damn time an invader showed up that the lands to their east had to confront the invaders & put up resistance for nearly 6 centuries.

These are simply facts. Read up more in case you're unsure of history .

Having said that, what exactly is your agenda out here?
 
>getting trolled
>writing essays in response to a troll

Guys..

Pls dont attempt info war..
Yeah I got caught .... But short of permabanning these retards ... Literally just the 2 of them what can we do ?
 
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Yeah I got caught .... But short of permabanning these retards ... Literally just the 2 of them what can we do ?
Either troll back or ignore..

That is the only strategy. I wish I could tell this to everyone replying on paki tweets "we shot down 17 rafale"

>NO U DIDNT

>HERE IS EVIDENCE OF PHOTOSHOP

>HERE IS TOM COOPER

Etc

They are trying to make indians mad. If you get mad you lose.

The reply should be to make them more mad. "We broke mosques and burned muslims inside" is a 100% hit rate for me, and now the kids being burned in balochistan is a good one.

Or no reply/no interaction at all.
 
Both G2, US and China are desperate to stop India's growth, both economy and particularly military including exports.

There will be several attempts to destabilize us. Individual US businesses might not want distribution, such as Apple, but the security/deep state sees us as too much of a potential threat to not sabotage.

China's goal should be self explanatory.
You have brought to fore a very important power struggle that we are witnessing. Earlier, in this thread, I explained this power struggle using what I call the jungle analogy. Imagine this world is a jungle. In this jungle, there are four lions: India, Russia, China and USA. These four lions are locked in an intense power struggle.

Russia & China are firmly allied against USA. This puts US at disadvantage; it needs India on its side.

China and USA cooperate with each other against India. This puts India at disadvantage.

India & Russia are not allied against anyone but they help each other. This relationship acts as a safeguard, in case, something unexpected were to happen in this power struggle.

Here is USA's dilemma:
Let us assume for a second that India is out of the equation -- just hypothetically speaking. Now, USA is all alone against Russia & China. That is why, it is imperative to develop appreciation for the subtle difference between Chinese and American positions with respect to India. India and USA are locked in a situation that looks very much like game of chicken. USA is hoping, India will yield first. The short India - Pakistan military conflict that just concluded should be seen through this lens. That was the first pressure applied against India by USA. There will be more. If USA yields first, it will be literally a game changing event.
 
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In times of crisis, people become enthusiasts and experts in a heartbeat despite having barely superficial amount of knowledge about the subject. The amount of braindead takes I've heard over the years about Covid-19, pandemic economy, Russia-Ukraine war, Manipur crisis, blind Trump fellatio pre-2024 US election and what not has made me numb to these people and their glorious takes.

The "info war" was crushed the moment even Al Jazeera and NYT had to begrudgingly admit that IAF had bombed Paki airfields after witnessing images that were procured from private satellite firms. Even Chinki satellites had confirmed the successes of Indian attacks while there is 0 evidence of any real damage to any IAF base that could be verified by any satellite firms, no drone/missile footage was released by Porkis and the only thing they had to show for the whole fiasco was a grainy pic where nobody could even see an S-400. If there is a Porkie or doomer lurking in this thread, I would challenge them to conclusively identify the S-400 from the ISPR pic.

The real war was much worse. The "last laugh" Porkies had by launching a drone attack on the day after ceasefire was countered with ease and the only damage and loss of life it caused was with the debris falling on to people's homes (there is literally no evidence of any drone caused destruction in Indian side of the border). The only real deadly response they had was with their shelling which was duly answered in kind. India bombed Paki air force assets in broad daylight and disabled runways, air defense radars, a mobile command and a hangar with a Saab Erieye getting spitroasted inside it, among others (the C-130). If Operation Sindoor had escalated into a real war, no Paki aircraft would be able to take it to the skies and those that are already in the skies, would have no option but go for hard landing and risk damage and prolonged grounding for maintenance (at best) if they aren't destroyed by AAMs. We had them by the balls.
Yes but Paki aiir assets were right next to the runway. Why did we not take a few of them out? This is the part no one understands. You are in a war. Dont you want to inflict damage to assets that are readily available to bomb?
 
@darkflame and @Drwho banned for a week.

Thread will be cleaned up later today.
 
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There seem to be two handles - @Drwho. & @Drwho . The culprit is the latter ID not the former. Ironically both these handles were created on the same day.
Ah true. Just noticed. Anyway banned the right guy in the first place as well.
 

This is likely fake news. F16.net does not support F16s being downed. I understand propaganda is needed. But it has to be sophisticated and not be laughed at outright. We are not good at doing propaganda. Training sessions and a professional setup are needed.BLA is much better at technical footage than Indian defense forces. I see some developments in getting the message out but useless messaging like we did not target their military should be cut out. It is making us lose credibility as we come across as a non-serious player.
 
FINALLY... the # released for Paki losses.

Paki losses in a nutshell:-
  • 8 F-16s
  • 1 IL-78 Tanker
  • 1 ERIEYE
  • 2 HQ9 units
  • 4 Radars
  • 1 AEWC
  • 6 Bayraktar TB2
  • Bachi khuchi Izzat
Poor Pakis tried to hide their LOSSES by faking news of Indian jets down and all. So Pakis not only SUFFERED HUGE LOSSES in terms of terrorists/soldiers(about 200) but also loss in Billions. Kangali mei aata geela. :lol:

Super SHREWD and Cunning US tried to sponsor and support fake narrative of Pakis by saying Indian jets were down and all within few mins of Operation Sindoor!!! US can't tolerate their F-16 downed by Rafales/SU's so got nervous and peddled fake narrative through lot of Armchair Jarnail's analysis in youtube etc. It's all good since India wanted some SOLID excuse to REJECT the overpriced F-35. No wonder US allowed IMF loans to these BHIKHARIS.

Indian Military remained calm and provided all PROOF whereas Pakis relied on their Madrasa Chaap Jihadis with "Center of Gravity" 💩. So $3.3 Billion TEA WAS FANTASTIC!!! :tea:

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Dude…all this is propaganda like in not actual. It is being used to create fog of war. Appreciate the effort but deterrence is established by real damage and not social media.
 
Of all the threads I could’ve ended up in, how did I manage to walk headfirst into the intellectual equivalent of a clown car crash. At this point, I’m just buckled in, popcorn in hand, waiting to see what flips over next.

First off, equating Modi’s foreign policy with some vague “Mongolian approach” is peak Dunning-Kruger cosplay. What does it even mean??

Then we tumble headfirst into the hormonal pseudoscience sewer, where evolutionary psychology is butchered to justify lazy stereotypes. This isn't discourse it's a fever dream assembled from WhatsApp forwards, Twitter rage-bait, and whatever someone half-remembered from a Joe Rogan episode played at 1.5x speed.

At this point, any Tom, Dick, and Hary with a Wi-Fi signal thinks opening an account entitles them to vomit policy takes like a broken BuzzFeed quiz generator. Zero context, zero history, just tamasha and volume.
 
Yes but Paki aiir assets were right next to the runway. Why did we not take a few of them out? This is the part no one understands. You are in a war. Dont you want to inflict damage to assets that are readily available to bomb?
What you said is logical but could've only been possible if the GoI was eager to get itself in an all out war, which I highly doubt. If that's what it wanted, we would've conducted SEAD/DEAD on May 7th followed by the actual missile attacks on terrorist installations and if the Pakis retaliated (they would have) we would've bombed their air bases like on May 10th but on a greater intensity with not just the runway but also aircrafts like what you suggested. It seems to me, that originally the GoI wanted a repeat of Balakot where we would've struck targets and they would've retaliated, both sides claiming victory and then ignoring each other for the next 6 years but that plan got de-railed with Porki reaction and had to improvize to get their DGMO to request a ceasefire and sell it as a win to Indians.
 
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