Operation Sindoor and Aftermath

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All this noise about the J31........

How many times have we heard this bullshit before? Oh the Pakistanis are being armed with Western and Chinese equipment and India is under-prepared. All of you folks who are running around with their tails tucked between your legs fearing some stealth jet might lock onto it, how much of India's capabilities which were showcased in Op Sindoor were you aware of? You need to read more about Chinese military platforms, their testing and their pricing strategies to understand what a f***ing sham Chinese def equipment is. EVEN IF the Chinese jets are worth their weight in salt, Pakistan won't be getting any, atleast for the next 4-5 years. And btw, a 5th gen fighter is like a Bugatti Veyron. A million dollars to buy and then 150k for a freaking oil change. Even if Pakistan get the Bugatti for free, neither do they have the fuel to keep refilling every 12 mins, nor do they have the 150k for the oil change. This is all geopolitical fear mongering. The only reason China is making a big show of offering the J31 to Pakis is because Trump stirred up a media storm by claiming that India is gonna get the F35 and Pakistan needed an equivalent narrative. Simple as that. Time will prove this.


All this noise about F35 or Su57.......

How many times has the US stabbed India in the back? EVEN NOW in the present moment Trump is trying to backstab Modi. You think the Americans will allow us to fly the F35s in the event that Op Sindoor 2.0 needs to be carried out? Do you think they'll allow India to integrate the F35s in the IACCS or NC3I with all the other Russian equipment? Do you think they'll allow India to do future India specific upgrades like we did to the Sukhois and MiGs. A big fat NO. F35 in IAF inventory is as good as a paper plane on your office desk that you can do aerial patrolling in. Sure, it adds to deterrence but what about when this deterrence is tested?
Now let's look at Big Red. Is Russia a WAY more reliable partner than USA? ABSOLUTELY. But the Su57 is essentially not in the same class as the F35 or J31. It's a much larger jet, akin to the J20 or F22. But it nowhere is as stealthy as the F22. The Su 57's RCS for eg is between 0.1 - 0.5 square meters depending on distance of detection. The Rafale's RCS ranges between 0.1-1 square meters. Sure as a stop gap, a few Su57's might do the trick for the next 4-5 years but beyond that, we'd be fools to think the Su57 is potent enough a platform and from everything that has happened in the last month and a half, Indian military and political leadership is far from fools. They are bloody good at their job, and have atleast surpassed my appreciation of India's military might and political will to yield that might.



IMHO, we NEED to fast track the Kaveri and AMCA programs as much as possible. The Kaveri isn't a complete failure. From my appreciation, the project can be massively fast-tracked if India signs MOUs to develop specific systems that we're unable to perfect for the engine with private companies, separately for all such components. For the AMCA Mk1 which will have considerable foreign tech, we should again look at specific fifth gen tech components that will take the longest to develop indigenously. We should compromise on the degree of indigenousness in the Mk1 and have atleast a couple of squadrons by 2035. If we can do that, then Mk2 can be a fully indigenous 5.5 gen platform. Also, India should consider joining the European 6th Gen program. Join, jointly develop the tech in design phase, and then leave the program before prototyping phase, like France did with the Eurofighter. Till the time the AMCA joins the IAF, India should focus on completely operationalizing the Ghatak UAV and CATS warrior program in the next 3-4 years. That is an asymmetric capability, especially in how the India-Pak conflict is escalating in the air domain.
Rafale rcs u are quoting is extreme bullshit ,maybe bare bones rafale without weapons and drop tanks.

With those ,it's rcs should be easily 3-5 metres square.

No comparison with su-57.That plane is made specifically to detect stealth ,has 3 x band radars and 2 L band ones.

We can negotiate the modern version with flat nozzles too...they already have a prototype flying ,we can negotiate AL-51 engines for future AMCA rather than relying on shitty 100-110 Kn class small engines on offer from France.
It's disadvantages can be negated to some extent with ram coating and engine radar blocker.
 
Maybe, but so is J20 a fake 5th gen.

As I have said, Rafales should be able to handle J20. The problem is integration with our own systems, which is critical.

If we can get Frenchies to agree, I'd say go for them and pour resources into AMCA.
Rafales have 0 chance against J-20 simply based on stealth.
The nose cone of rafale is also very small so not many T/R modules can be added affecting the overall power.Then there is issue of Ga arsenide aesa only in our rafales.

Chinese can't be underestimated.
 
India needs a proper INFO WAR ROOM....
we have almost perfect Army, Air , Naval Integrated Grid, and we are working in all the front to get it to the best of its preparation....
we need mature info war room which can not only counter the narrative but should be updated in real time scenario...
 
All this noise about the J31........

How many times have we heard this bullshit before? Oh the Pakistanis are being armed with Western and Chinese equipment and India is under-prepared. All of you folks who are running around with their tails tucked between your legs fearing some stealth jet might lock onto it, how much of India's capabilities which were showcased in Op Sindoor were you aware of? You need to read more about Chinese military platforms, their testing and their pricing strategies to understand what a f***ing sham Chinese def equipment is. EVEN IF the Chinese jets are worth their weight in salt, Pakistan won't be getting any, atleast for the next 4-5 years. And btw, a 5th gen fighter is like a Bugatti Veyron. A million dollars to buy and then 150k for a freaking oil change. Even if Pakistan get the Bugatti for free, neither do they have the fuel to keep refilling every 12 mins, nor do they have the 150k for the oil change. This is all geopolitical fear mongering. The only reason China is making a big show of offering the J31 to Pakis is because Trump stirred up a media storm by claiming that India is gonna get the F35 and Pakistan needed an equivalent narrative. Simple as that. Time will prove this.


All this noise about F35 or Su57.......

How many times has the US stabbed India in the back? EVEN NOW in the present moment Trump is trying to backstab Modi. You think the Americans will allow us to fly the F35s in the event that Op Sindoor 2.0 needs to be carried out? Do you think they'll allow India to integrate the F35s in the IACCS or NC3I with all the other Russian equipment? Do you think they'll allow India to do future India specific upgrades like we did to the Sukhois and MiGs. A big fat NO. F35 in IAF inventory is as good as a paper plane on your office desk that you can do aerial patrolling in. Sure, it adds to deterrence but what about when this deterrence is tested?
Now let's look at Big Red. Is Russia a WAY more reliable partner than USA? ABSOLUTELY. But the Su57 is essentially not in the same class as the F35 or J31. It's a much larger jet, akin to the J20 or F22. But it nowhere is as stealthy as the F22. The Su 57's RCS for eg is between 0.1 - 0.5 square meters depending on distance of detection. The Rafale's RCS ranges between 0.1-1 square meters. Sure as a stop gap, a few Su57's might do the trick for the next 4-5 years but beyond that, we'd be fools to think the Su57 is potent enough a platform and from everything that has happened in the last month and a half, Indian military and political leadership is far from fools. They are bloody good at their job, and have atleast surpassed my appreciation of India's military might and political will to yield that might.



IMHO, we NEED to fast track the Kaveri and AMCA programs as much as possible. The Kaveri isn't a complete failure. From my appreciation, the project can be massively fast-tracked if India signs MOUs to develop specific systems that we're unable to perfect for the engine with private companies, separately for all such components. For the AMCA Mk1 which will have considerable foreign tech, we should again look at specific fifth gen tech components that will take the longest to develop indigenously. We should compromise on the degree of indigenousness in the Mk1 and have atleast a couple of squadrons by 2035. If we can do that, then Mk2 can be a fully indigenous 5.5 gen platform. Also, India should consider joining the European 6th Gen program. Join, jointly develop the tech in design phase, and then leave the program before prototyping phase, like France did with the Eurofighter. Till the time the AMCA joins the IAF, India should focus on completely operationalizing the Ghatak UAV and CATS warrior program in the next 3-4 years. That is an asymmetric capability, especially in how the India-Pak conflict is escalating in the air domain.
Any source for the RCS numbers for Rafale? I doubt those numbers.

The Su 57 is still stealthier than anything we can field. It also has a big advantage of having radars designed to detect stealth.
 
Any source for the RCS numbers for Rafale? I doubt those numbers.

The Su 57 is still stealthier than anything we can field. It also has a big advantage of having radars designed to detect stealth.

Rafale RCS source: https://basicsaboutaerodynamicsanda...023/04/08/rafale-radar-scattering-simulation/

Su57 RCS source: https://basicsaboutaerodynamicsanda...2022/09/26/su-57-radar-scattering-simulation/

Note that these RCS readings are from a point-blank range of the jet.

The radar on the Felon is truly impressive. Like I mentioned, India should focus on specific 5th gen components like the radar on the Felon rather than full jets with whatever sham ToT Russia wants to dump on us.
 
Rafale RCS source: https://basicsaboutaerodynamicsanda...023/04/08/rafale-radar-scattering-simulation/

Su57 RCS source: https://basicsaboutaerodynamicsanda...2022/09/26/su-57-radar-scattering-simulation/

Note that these RCS readings are from a point-blank range of the jet.

The radar on the Felon is truly impressive. Like I mentioned, India should focus on specific 5th gen components like the radar on the Felon rather than full jets with whatever sham ToT Russia wants to dump on us.
Again....rafale clean means nothing to us.
Clean su-57 would still means internal 4-6 missiles depending on the type it carries .

Rafale- 0 meaning this rcs means shit in real scenario.

Other thing- Su 57 will have flat nozzle soon reducing the rcs even further.On the tot issue ,what are u getting from France btw in tot?
Answer is nothing at all,0.

Tot is nonsense concept ,focus on which jet gives u source code ,local production and things we don't have ( big true 5 gen engines and flat nozzle ).No one is even looking at these important things at all.

No wonder procurement is in shambles.
 
Again....rafale clean means nothing to us.
Clean su-57 would still means internal 4-6 missiles depending on the type it carries .

Rafale- 0 meaning this rcs means shit in real scenario.

Other thing- Su 57 will have flat nozzle soon reducing the rcs even further.On the tot issue ,what are u getting from France btw in tot?
Answer is nothing at all,0.

Tot is nonsense concept ,focus on which jet gives u source code ,local production and things we don't have ( big true 5 gen engines and flat nozzle ).No one is even looking at these important things at all.

No wonder procurement is in shambles.
Su 57 will be the end of Tejas and amca

GE engines will be stopped.
 
Rafale RCS source: https://basicsaboutaerodynamicsanda...023/04/08/rafale-radar-scattering-simulation/

Su57 RCS source: https://basicsaboutaerodynamicsanda...2022/09/26/su-57-radar-scattering-simulation/

Note that these RCS readings are from a point-blank range of the jet.

The radar on the Felon is truly impressive. Like I mentioned, India should focus on specific 5th gen components like the radar on the Felon rather than full jets with whatever sham ToT Russia wants to dump on us.

Thanks for sharing. How reliable are these models and simulations used?


Found this as well in the same site. This shows that the f35 is clearly the stealthiest, followed by the j20 at about 0.21m2 and finally the Su 57 at 0.48m2.

So yes, the J20 is stealthier but not by a massive amount. The stealth 'busting' radar also might give the Felon an advantage in a2a combat.

In conclusion, the Su 57 is still better than anything we have by a distance, even with all the presumed flaws. Also note that it can be integrated with the R37m bvr missile, which is a game changer.
 
Thanks for sharing. How reliable are these models and simulations used?


Found this as well in the same site. This shows that the f35 is clearly the stealthiest, followed by the j20 at about 0.21m2 and finally the Su 57 at 0.48m2.

So yes, the J20 is stealthier but not by a massive amount. The stealth 'busting' radar also might give the Felon an advantage in a2a combat.

In conclusion, the Su 57 is still better than anything we have by a distance, even with all the presumed flaws. Also note that it can be integrated with the R37m bvr missile, which is a game changer.

Still, it will only work as a stopgap, as I said in my post. Whichever way you look at it, AMCA Mk1 needs to be fast-tracked.
Honestly, if Russia offers the Su-57 and India manages to negotiate a legitimate ToT for even some of the critical components like the radar, tracking, and guidance system, engine, etc., then a couple of Su-57 squadrons with R37M hypersonic BVR missiles is a bloody good deal. This will fast-track AMCA greatly and solve the Kaveri problem once and for all. And with Russia dealing with its problem(s), ToT of critical components for just 2-4 squadrons of a jet, even though generally far-fetched, is quite possible. Their def industry needs the money.
 
Still, it will only work as a stopgap, as I said in my post. Whichever way you look at it, AMCA Mk1 needs to be fast-tracked.
Honestly, if Russia offers the Su-57 and India manages to negotiate a legitimate ToT for even some of the critical components like the radar, tracking, and guidance system, engine, etc., then a couple of Su-57 squadrons with R37M hypersonic BVR missiles is a bloody good deal. This will fast-track AMCA greatly and solve the Kaveri problem once and for all. And with Russia dealing with its problem(s), ToT of critical components for just 2-4 squadrons of a jet, even though generally far-fetched, is quite possible. Their def industry needs the money.
Fast track with what ?
We have failed to even make a tejas mk1a ,what makes u think we can just decide to fast track it ?

It's 10 times more complex then designing a simple delta wing like tejas.We would need proper sensor fusion ,dedicated maws ,dircm ,serpentine ducts ,good engines for supercruise etc etc.

We have finite amount of money ,how are 3-4 simultaneous programs even possible ?Which other country is running these many programs apart from China ?And china is 5 times our economy with difference of 15 trillion dollars.

Wake up and smell the coffee.Such unrealistic targets are just making us even worse every year.We need to just focus on tejas atm,make only subsystems for amca and select / collaborate on engines.We will decide by 2035.
Meanwhile fill the gap with 3 squadrons of some 5 th gen to counter chinese j-31 which is coming by next year.How tough can it be ?Failure to do this will result in us losing air to air superiority soon.

Not to forget we have to spend money on super sukhoi program too.Way too much work for HAL if u ask me ,we risk delaying everything by 4-5 years.
 
Still, it will only work as a stopgap, as I said in my post. Whichever way you look at it, AMCA Mk1 needs to be fast-tracked.
Honestly, if Russia offers the Su-57 and India manages to negotiate a legitimate ToT for even some of the critical components like the radar, tracking, and guidance system, engine, etc., then a couple of Su-57 squadrons with R37M hypersonic BVR missiles is a bloody good deal. This will fast-track AMCA greatly and solve the Kaveri problem once and for all. And with Russia dealing with its problem(s), ToT of critical components for just 2-4 squadrons of a jet, even though generally far-fetched, is quite possible. Their def industry needs the money.

4-5 squadrons is still a good number of aircraft to make it worth their while and enough to deter Pakis in the short term.

I agree we need to do everything to accelerate the AMCA and ensure the programme is on schedule.

But the big question mark is the engine. Relying on US engines for the AMCA is suicidal.

Engine development is even more critical for our future. This not only affects the AMCA programme, but Tejas at all.
 
Fast track with what ?
We have failed to even make a tejas mk1a ,what makes u think we can just decide to fast track it ?

It's 10 times more complex then designing a simple delta wing like tejas.We would need proper sensor fusion ,dedicated maws ,dircm ,serpentine ducts ,good engines for supercruise etc etc.

We have finite amount of money ,how are 3-4 simultaneous programs even possible ?Which other country is running these many programs apart from China ?And china is 5 times our economy with difference of 15 trillion dollars.

Wake up and smell the coffee.Such unrealistic targets are just making us even worse every year.We need to just focus on tejas atm,make only subsystems for amca and select / collaborate on engines.We will decide by 2035.
Meanwhile fill the gap with 3 squadrons of some 5 th gen to counter chinese j-31 which is coming by next year.How tough can it be ?Failure to do this will result in us losing air to air superiority soon.

Not to forget we have to spend money on super sukhoi program too.Way too much work for HAL if u ask me ,we risk delaying everything by 4-5 years.

There are also big question marks over delivery timelines for the Su 57, even if we sign a deal next year(big IF).

Not like we will start getting deliveries before 2029-30.

A bit of a rock and hard place we are in.
 
4-5 squadrons is still a good number of aircraft to make it worth their while and enough to deter Pakis in the short term.

I agree we need to do everything to accelerate the AMCA and ensure the programme is on schedule.

But the big question mark is the engine. Relying on US engines for the AMCA is suicidal.

Engine development is even more critical for our future. This not only affects the AMCA programme, but Tejas at all.

Ik this is severe hopium but goddamn if India can get their hands on the AL 51-F1 engines, that'd be a dream! Even the AL 41-F1S engines aren't half bad. And afaik, those were even offered to India for the SuperSukhoi program, but we opted to stick to the AL 31FP engines. Maybe this time we can get a ToT for the AL 41-F1S. Again, severe hopium.
 
We simply are not prepared for another dedicated new platform r&d at this moment.
There is really no need.

1)Induct tejas with modern el/m 2052 and uttam aesa.
2)Buy 100 + rafales
3)Buy 3 squadrons of 5 gen as stop gap for next 10 years.

AMCA only prototype by 2035 with fully developed subsystems and selection of an engine.We sure won't be able to make an indigenous engine for amca as we have to freeze the design before that.If possible use GE 414 only.If not then pay Russians to modernize the rd33/93 family for higher service hours. Most russian engines with exception of al-41 ( 4000+ hours )and newer al-51( 6000 hours ) are barely rated at 2000 hours service vs 6000+ for most western engines and not appropriate without modifications.
 
There are also big question marks over delivery timelines for the Su 57, even if we sign a deal next year(big IF).

Not like we will start getting deliveries before 2029-30.

A bit of a rock and hard place we are in.

Exactly my concern wrt the Russians. The last two S400 regiments are also delayed. Hopefully, not beyond 2026.
 
Gee dude, your pessimism is almost infectious. Chinese, is it?
I don't understand the reason for ur optimism.
We need to do far better ,are we doing it
..No.

Can we do it ...yes.

HAL can barely make tejas ,how is it to handle 4 projects simultaneously?U tell me.
 
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