Operation Sindoor and Aftermath

[he-man]

Rafale RCS source: https://basicsaboutaerodynamicsanda...023/04/08/rafale-radar-scattering-simulation/

Su57 RCS source: https://basicsaboutaerodynamicsanda...2022/09/26/su-57-radar-scattering-simulation/

Note that these RCS readings are from a point-blank range of the jet.

The radar on the Felon is truly impressive. Like I mentioned, India should focus on specific 5th gen components like the radar on the Felon rather than full jets with whatever sham ToT Russia wants to dump on us.

Again....rafale clean means nothing to us.
Clean su-57 would still means internal 4-6 missiles depending on the type it carries .

Rafale- 0 meaning this rcs means shit in real scenario.

Other thing- Su 57 will have flat nozzle soon reducing the rcs even further.On the tot issue ,what are u getting from France btw in tot?
Answer is nothing at all,0.

Tot is nonsense concept ,focus on which jet gives u source code ,local production and things we don't have ( big true 5 gen engines and flat nozzle ).No one is even looking at these important things at all.

No wonder procurement is in shambles.

 

[Nibbler]

Again....rafale clean means nothing to us.
Clean su-57 would still means internal 4-6 missiles depending on the type it carries .

Rafale- 0 meaning this rcs means shit in real scenario.

Other thing- Su 57 will have flat nozzle soon reducing the rcs even further.On the tot issue ,what are u getting from France btw in tot?
Answer is nothing at all,0.

Tot is nonsense concept ,focus on which jet gives u source code ,local production and things we don't have ( big true 5 gen engines and flat nozzle ).No one is even looking at these important things at all.

No wonder procurement is in shambles.

Su 57 will be the end of Tejas and amca

GE engines will be stopped.

 

[he-man]

Su 57 will be the end of Tejas and amca

GE engines will be stopped.

Getting those stupid engines was the biggest mistake we did.Low underpowered engines .

Should not make the same mistake with AMCA.Anyways amca is just a pipedream ,on drawing board.

 

[Noob_Saibot]

Rafale RCS source: https://basicsaboutaerodynamicsanda...023/04/08/rafale-radar-scattering-simulation/

Su57 RCS source: https://basicsaboutaerodynamicsanda...2022/09/26/su-57-radar-scattering-simulation/

Note that these RCS readings are from a point-blank range of the jet.

The radar on the Felon is truly impressive. Like I mentioned, India should focus on specific 5th gen components like the radar on the Felon rather than full jets with whatever sham ToT Russia wants to dump on us.

Thanks for sharing. How reliable are these models and simulations used?

F-35 vs J-20 vs Su-57 Summary

Introduction Previously, we have done HFSS simulation to evaluate the mean and median radar cross section as well as the radar scattering pattern of the four common stealth fighters namely F-35A, S…

basicsaboutaerodynamicsandavionics.wordpress.com

Found this as well in the same site. This shows that the f35 is clearly the stealthiest, followed by the j20 at about 0.21m2 and finally the Su 57 at 0.48m2.

So yes, the J20 is stealthier but not by a massive amount. The stealth 'busting' radar also might give the Felon an advantage in a2a combat.

In conclusion, the Su 57 is still better than anything we have by a distance, even with all the presumed flaws. Also note that it can be integrated with the R37m bvr missile, which is a game changer.

 

[JConline]

Thanks for sharing. How reliable are these models and simulations used?

F-35 vs J-20 vs Su-57 Summary

Introduction Previously, we have done HFSS simulation to evaluate the mean and median radar cross section as well as the radar scattering pattern of the four common stealth fighters namely F-35A, S…

basicsaboutaerodynamicsandavionics.wordpress.com

Found this as well in the same site. This shows that the f35 is clearly the stealthiest, followed by the j20 at about 0.21m2 and finally the Su 57 at 0.48m2.

So yes, the J20 is stealthier but not by a massive amount. The stealth 'busting' radar also might give the Felon an advantage in a2a combat.

In conclusion, the Su 57 is still better than anything we have by a distance, even with all the presumed flaws. Also note that it can be integrated with the R37m bvr missile, which is a game changer.

Still, it will only work as a stopgap, as I said in my post. Whichever way you look at it, AMCA Mk1 needs to be fast-tracked.
Honestly, if Russia offers the Su-57 and India manages to negotiate a legitimate ToT for even some of the critical components like the radar, tracking, and guidance system, engine, etc., then a couple of Su-57 squadrons with R37M hypersonic BVR missiles is a bloody good deal. This will fast-track AMCA greatly and solve the Kaveri problem once and for all. And with Russia dealing with its problem(s), ToT of critical components for just 2-4 squadrons of a jet, even though generally far-fetched, is quite possible. Their def industry needs the money.

 

[he-man]

Still, it will only work as a stopgap, as I said in my post. Whichever way you look at it, AMCA Mk1 needs to be fast-tracked.
Honestly, if Russia offers the Su-57 and India manages to negotiate a legitimate ToT for even some of the critical components like the radar, tracking, and guidance system, engine, etc., then a couple of Su-57 squadrons with R37M hypersonic BVR missiles is a bloody good deal. This will fast-track AMCA greatly and solve the Kaveri problem once and for all. And with Russia dealing with its problem(s), ToT of critical components for just 2-4 squadrons of a jet, even though generally far-fetched, is quite possible. Their def industry needs the money.

Fast track with what ?
We have failed to even make a tejas mk1a ,what makes u think we can just decide to fast track it ?

It's 10 times more complex then designing a simple delta wing like tejas.We would need proper sensor fusion ,dedicated maws ,dircm ,serpentine ducts ,good engines for supercruise etc etc.

We have finite amount of money ,how are 3-4 simultaneous programs even possible ?Which other country is running these many programs apart from China ?And china is 5 times our economy with difference of 15 trillion dollars.

Wake up and smell the coffee.Such unrealistic targets are just making us even worse every year.We need to just focus on tejas atm,make only subsystems for amca and select / collaborate on engines.We will decide by 2035.
Meanwhile fill the gap with 3 squadrons of some 5 th gen to counter chinese j-31 which is coming by next year.How tough can it be ?Failure to do this will result in us losing air to air superiority soon.

Not to forget we have to spend money on super sukhoi program too.Way too much work for HAL if u ask me ,we risk delaying everything by 4-5 years.

 

[Noob_Saibot]

Still, it will only work as a stopgap, as I said in my post. Whichever way you look at it, AMCA Mk1 needs to be fast-tracked.
Honestly, if Russia offers the Su-57 and India manages to negotiate a legitimate ToT for even some of the critical components like the radar, tracking, and guidance system, engine, etc., then a couple of Su-57 squadrons with R37M hypersonic BVR missiles is a bloody good deal. This will fast-track AMCA greatly and solve the Kaveri problem once and for all. And with Russia dealing with its problem(s), ToT of critical components for just 2-4 squadrons of a jet, even though generally far-fetched, is quite possible. Their def industry needs the money.

4-5 squadrons is still a good number of aircraft to make it worth their while and enough to deter Pakis in the short term.

I agree we need to do everything to accelerate the AMCA and ensure the programme is on schedule.

But the big question mark is the engine. Relying on US engines for the AMCA is suicidal.

Engine development is even more critical for our future. This not only affects the AMCA programme, but Tejas at all.

 

[Noob_Saibot]

Fast track with what ?
We have failed to even make a tejas mk1a ,what makes u think we can just decide to fast track it ?

It's 10 times more complex then designing a simple delta wing like tejas.We would need proper sensor fusion ,dedicated maws ,dircm ,serpentine ducts ,good engines for supercruise etc etc.

We have finite amount of money ,how are 3-4 simultaneous programs even possible ?Which other country is running these many programs apart from China ?And china is 5 times our economy with difference of 15 trillion dollars.

Wake up and smell the coffee.Such unrealistic targets are just making us even worse every year.We need to just focus on tejas atm,make only subsystems for amca and select / collaborate on engines.We will decide by 2035.
Meanwhile fill the gap with 3 squadrons of some 5 th gen to counter chinese j-31 which is coming by next year.How tough can it be ?Failure to do this will result in us losing air to air superiority soon.

Not to forget we have to spend money on super sukhoi program too.Way too much work for HAL if u ask me ,we risk delaying everything by 4-5 years.

There are also big question marks over delivery timelines for the Su 57, even if we sign a deal next year(big IF).

Not like we will start getting deliveries before 2029-30.

A bit of a rock and hard place we are in.

 

[JConline]

4-5 squadrons is still a good number of aircraft to make it worth their while and enough to deter Pakis in the short term.

I agree we need to do everything to accelerate the AMCA and ensure the programme is on schedule.

But the big question mark is the engine. Relying on US engines for the AMCA is suicidal.

Engine development is even more critical for our future. This not only affects the AMCA programme, but Tejas at all.

Ik this is severe hopium but goddamn if India can get their hands on the AL 51-F1 engines, that'd be a dream! Even the AL 41-F1S engines aren't half bad. And afaik, those were even offered to India for the SuperSukhoi program, but we opted to stick to the AL 31FP engines. Maybe this time we can get a ToT for the AL 41-F1S. Again, severe hopium.

 

[JConline]

Fast track with what ?
We have failed to even make a tejas mk1a ,what makes u think we can just decide to fast track it ?

It's 10 times more complex then designing a simple delta wing like tejas.We would need proper sensor fusion ,dedicated maws ,dircm ,serpentine ducts ,good engines for supercruise etc etc.

We have finite amount of money ,how are 3-4 simultaneous programs even possible ?Which other country is running these many programs apart from China ?And china is 5 times our economy with difference of 15 trillion dollars.

Wake up and smell the coffee.Such unrealistic targets are just making us even worse every year.We need to just focus on tejas atm,make only subsystems for amca and select / collaborate on engines.We will decide by 2035.
Meanwhile fill the gap with 3 squadrons of some 5 th gen to counter chinese j-31 which is coming by next year.How tough can it be ?Failure to do this will result in us losing air to air superiority soon.

Not to forget we have to spend money on super sukhoi program too.Way too much work for HAL if u ask me ,we risk delaying everything by 4-5 years.

Gee dude, your pessimism is almost infectious. Chinese, is it?

 

[he-man]

We simply are not prepared for another dedicated new platform r&d at this moment.
There is really no need.

1)Induct tejas with modern el/m 2052 and uttam aesa.
2)Buy 100 + rafales
3)Buy 3 squadrons of 5 gen as stop gap for next 10 years.

AMCA only prototype by 2035 with fully developed subsystems and selection of an engine.We sure won't be able to make an indigenous engine for amca as we have to freeze the design before that.If possible use GE 414 only.If not then pay Russians to modernize the rd33/93 family for higher service hours. Most russian engines with exception of al-41 ( 4000+ hours )and newer al-51( 6000 hours ) are barely rated at 2000 hours service vs 6000+ for most western engines and not appropriate without modifications.

 

[JConline]

There are also big question marks over delivery timelines for the Su 57, even if we sign a deal next year(big IF).

Not like we will start getting deliveries before 2029-30.

A bit of a rock and hard place we are in.

Exactly my concern wrt the Russians. The last two S400 regiments are also delayed. Hopefully, not beyond 2026.

 

[he-man]

Gee dude, your pessimism is almost infectious. Chinese, is it?

I don't understand the reason for ur optimism.
We need to do far better ,are we doing it
..No.

Can we do it ...yes.

HAL can barely make tejas ,how is it to handle 4 projects simultaneously?U tell me.

 

[JConline]

I don't understand the reason for ur optimism.
We need to do far better ,are we doing it
..No.

Can we do it ...yes.

HAL can barely make tejas ,how is it to handle 4 projects simultaneously?U tell me.

I suggested entering into collaborations or buying ToT off of manufacturers for individual 5th-gen sub-systems. The majority of these can be handled by private sector players. The critical components should be retained by ADA and HAL.

Always been the same formula to get shit done quick: Delegate.

 

[he-man]

I suggested entering into collaborations or buying ToT off of manufacturers for individual 5th-gen sub-systems. The majority of these can be handled by private sector players. The critical components should be retained by ADA and HAL.

Always been the same formula to get shit done quick: Delegate.

Not happening.
Fucked up similarly in scorpene subs getting them without aip.
Fucked up in modernization of mig -29k paying peanuts to Russians ( older radar etc )
Fucked up in mirage 2000 modernization ( 43 million per aircraft )
Again doing same shit for last 15 years ,mmrca tender ...just 36 aircrafts.

All this is happening as we have bigger aspirations than our pockets.Same will happen with tejas ,super sukhoi ,rafales and amca.Money will spread out and everything will be delayed.

 

[Noob_Saibot]

Exactly my concern wrt the Russians. The last two S400 regiments are also delayed. Hopefully, not beyond 2026.

That's the thing , a stop gap only makes sense if it is expedited to match the Pakis acquisition timelines.

I don't see us receiving any deliveries before the late 2020s, which is also quite optimistic.

Unless we can pull a rabbit out of the hat and get the Ruskies to prioritize deliveries for us.

Looks like Algeria are also going for the Felon and in the process of signing a deal. We will be 2nd in line at best, not considering Russia's own induction needs...

 

[Nibbler]

Getting those stupid engines was the biggest mistake we did.Low underpowered engines .

Should not make the same mistake with AMCA.Anyways amca is just a pipedream ,on drawing board.

So the plan is to destroy indigenous programs for su-57 because a country that just couldn't defend a single one of its airbases might buy some more Chinese products and park them in those same airbases

You panic merchants are truly the dumbest people on the planet.

Pakistan getting j35 changes nothing. And China already has hundreds of 5th gen platforms.

No import. Find a doctor to treat your anxiety.

 

[he-man]

So the plan is to destroy indigenous programs for su-57 because a country that just couldn't defend a single one of its airbases might buy some more Chinese products and park them in those same airbases

You panic merchants are truly the dumbest people on the planet.

Pakistan getting j35 changes nothing. And China already has hundreds of 5th gen platforms.

No import. Find a doctor to treat your anxiety.

Another super smart guy.
Prepare to waste another 5 years.

 

[Nibbler]

Another super smart guy.
Prepare to waste another 5 years.

Su57 is not happening. Prepare to cry for another 5 years.

 

[snakeeyes07]

Thanks for sharing. How reliable are these models and simulations used?

F-35 vs J-20 vs Su-57 Summary

Introduction Previously, we have done HFSS simulation to evaluate the mean and median radar cross section as well as the radar scattering pattern of the four common stealth fighters namely F-35A, S…

basicsaboutaerodynamicsandavionics.wordpress.com

Found this as well in the same site. This shows that the f35 is clearly the stealthiest, followed by the j20 at about 0.21m2 and finally the Su 57 at 0.48m2.

So yes, the J20 is stealthier but not by a massive amount. The stealth 'busting' radar also might give the Felon an advantage in a2a combat.

In conclusion, the Su 57 is still better than anything we have by a distance, even with all the presumed flaws. Also note that it can be integrated with the R37m bvr missile, which is a game changer.

For reference, detection range for DRDO MPR based on the RCS figure in that website, for J35 I assumed the worst case (best for them) RCS that is 1/2 of J20:
Based on best RCS for these fighters in the open:
F35 - 0.001, J20 - 0.05, SU57 - 0.1, J35 - 0.025