Dassault Rafale in Indian Air Force (5 Viewers)

[FalconSlayers]

No evidence Meteor is not inducted in IAF.
My bet is that Meteor was not used 1st day as Pak was aware of an air raid against terrorist (and not against pak assets, so expecting not a hard PAF answer...).
Strangely the other days of air operations were made with the same birds, including Rafale and were a great success. May be because Meteor was then used ?

Because of S-400s which weren't used on day 1 due to strict rules of engagement to not target any paki military asset, to show it as a war on terror, not paki state (even if both are the same entity). That S-400s kept them away from doing anything stupid for rest of the 3 days, limiting them to loitering drones and some ground launched rockets/missiles only.

 

[snakeeyes07]

Because of S-400s which weren't used on day 1 due to strict rules of engagement to not target any paki military asset, to show it as a war on terror, not paki state (even if both are the same entity). That S-400s kept them away from doing anything stupid for rest of the 3 days, limiting them to loitering drones and some ground launched rockets/missiles only.

But if meteors were carried on Day 1, why didn't we see any AAM wreckage in Pakistan?

 

[shade2]

But if meteors were carried on Day 1, why didn't we see any AAM wreckage in Pakistan?

Saar, Meteors were not carried, do JeM jihadis fly fighter jets?

IAF were to strike "Terrorist breeding grounds" onleee as per our esteemed "Budh not Yudh" and "not the era of war" leadership on Day 1

It's another thing you ask memberaans of this forum, or right wingers in general, they will all say that GHQ, Rawalpindi is the #1 terrorist breeding ground.

After that we were firing brahmos from su-30 safely from within our airspace.

Any A2A kills was because some flying jihadis crossed into our side of the border

 

[BON PLAN]

But if meteors were carried on Day 1, why didn't we see any AAM wreckage in Pakistan?

Because of the rules of engagement of day 1 may be.
If on the indian side it was anly agreed to fire if pak jets came in indian air space, and on the other side pak air force fired dozens of air to air missile, that explain a lot of things :
- no indian AAM wreck in pakistant
- several pak AAM found in india
- later days of air campagn easy from the infian point of view because lack of AAM in PAF inventory (too much already fired day 1).

 

[IRDefense]

No evidence Meteor is not inducted in IAF.
My bet is that Meteor was not used 1st day as Pak was aware of an air raid against terrorist (and not against pak assets, so expecting not a hard PAF answer...).
Strangely the other days of air operations were made with the same birds, including Rafale and were a great success. May be because Meteor was then used ?

There isn't any evidence that it was inducted too. There are multiple reasons ppl in the OSINT community cite, sipri arms transfer db doesn't list it but lists MICA.

The alleged rafale debris of rafale seems to have an mica but no meteor.

No image of an indian rafale with meteor exists.

While I agree none of them are conclusive, the alternative is even more preplexing. If IAF did have meteors what is the tactical mistake CDS spoke about? ROE as you cite? I don't even know what to say if this was what IAF planners really thought from a millitary standpoint.

You believe Pakistan is sponsoring a proxy war that is targetting your civillians, but you also believe that PAF will not target IAF when you are bombing pakistani territory? That is some muddled thinking that only Indian babus in their lalaland are cabale of. IAF might have also gone much closer than required to ensure the targets are hit as lack of indisputable evidence during balatkot strikes were PR issue. Subsequently, either because of SEAD ops or strikes from muich futhrer range IAF was much more successful without losses.

IAF might have also been instructed to not engage by the political leadership to show to the world that Indian reponse is measured, while this would make sense these are some really bad political instincts. The world hardly cared about Indian signaling & was more obsessed with how many jets India lost.

Either way lots to ponder upon for both military & polictical leaders for the next conflict.

 

[pythonlover]

The world hardly cared about Indian signaling & was more obsessed with how many jets India lost.

The "common" world was obsessed with jets India lost because Pakis seized the initiative in building narrative. OTOH, the people in Paki land who matter and for whom the signal was intended, got it. And world over, the people in power and who really matter and are in govt, also know what happened with Pakis.

This episode though highlighted Paki obsession with aviation combat. It didn't matter to them what the objectives of the IAF packages on various days were. Only thing that mattered to them was whether any jet was shot down or not. They were getting bombed left and right with impunity, but rather than asking their govt why the govt is unable to stop the bombing, the only thing they were obsessed with was FA loss. Never change Pakis, never change.

 

[IRDefense]

The "common" world was obsessed with jets India lost because Pakis seized the initiative in building narrative. OTOH, the people in Paki land who matter and for whom the signal was intended, got it. And world over, the people in power and who really matter and are in govt, also know what happened with Pakis.

Did they? wasn't it the same signal India tried to send during Balakot? That we are only attacking terrorists, what did PAF do? they attempted to bomb Indian Millitary. One can understand the intent & signaling at Balatkot as this is the first instance in decades of proxy war that India used Air power to attack inside enemy territory when not at war.

I don't understand the need to send the same message & expect anything different. They were going to respond militarily is given. IAF must have been given clear instructions to engage if PAF attempted an interception.

This episode though highlighted Paki obsession with aviation combat. It didn't matter to them what the objectives of the IAF packages on various days were. Only thing that mattered to them was whether any jet was shot down or not. They were getting bombed left and right with impunity, but rather than asking their govt why the govt is unable to stop the bombing, the only thing they were obsessed with was FA loss. Never change Pakis, never change.

Because Pakistan will never accept that they are terrorists, they will claim all of them are civillians & play victim. This is the version most Pakistani's will be exposed to, any air victory will be used to claim a successful response.

Pakistan is banking on a short war, in a short war pakistan can't be clearly defeated militarily like 71 or even kargil. So a short war is half based on narrative, Indian political leadership & IAF needs to realize this the next time they get into this. Modi's claim of not distinguishing between Pak military & terrorists should be put into action.

 

[pythonlover]

Did they? wasn't it the same signal India tried to send during Balakot? That we are only attacking terrorists, what did PAF do? they attempted to bomb Indian Millitary. One can understand the intent & signaling at Balatkot as this is the first instance in decades of proxy war that India used Air power to attack inside enemy territory when not at war.

I don't understand the need to send the same message & expect anything different. They were going to respond militarily is given. IAF must have been given clear instructions to engage if PAF attempted an interception.

Dude you think people in power world over get their information from global media? What does their intelligence and military do then? You know competent militaries and govt world over will study Operation Sindoor and try to find out the good tactics for themselves, just like they would be doing with Ukraine-Russia and current Iran-Israel conflicts. You think they won't know how the equations in the subcontinent have changed with this attack with India attacking Paki air bases with impunity, then defending against every Paki attack and then declaring that we will attack Paki military directly from now on in response to any terrorist attack? Govt don't work like "common folks", like just pick up the current media narrative. They analyse everything and have dedicated people to provide information for that.

As to why govt didn't allow IAF to hit PAF in first instance, it seems like a lot of people here don't understand that govt had hoped that after bombing of terrorist camps, Pakis would just cope with it. If you would have heard the CDS speak about how wars hamper economic growth, you would have known that the current govt does not want any prolonged war until India's growth story plateaus. We will not go to any war until we have achieved our potential economic status. This is the current govt policy. Every action and decision during Operation Sindoor was in support of this policy.

Because Pakistan will never accept that they are terrorists, they will claim all of them are civillians & play victim. This is the version most Pakistani's will be exposed to, any air victory will be used to claim a successful response.

Pakistan is banking on a short war, in a short war pakistan can't be clearly defeated militarily like 71 or even kargil. So a short war is half based on narrative, Indian political leadership & IAF needs to realize this the next time they get into this. Modi's claim of not distinguishing between Pak military & terrorists should be put into action.

Pakis can claim all the victory they want. No one cares. As I said, the people in Paki land who matter, the military and govt, know what happened to them during the short conflict and what would have happened if there was no ceasefire. And no, we would not be going for any long war against Pakis and I have explained the reason above.

And in fact, we all should cherish Paki delusions. How does it matter for us if common Paki thinks that their military won, even without any evidence of damage due to Operation Chaddi Banyan? If they think that objectives of wars are shooting down jets, let them live in their halucinations. A self critical and competent foe is much more dangerous than one living in grand delusions. It was Paki delusion of 1 momin = 10 baniya which led to their defeat in 1965 war. If you want, you should read Hussain Haqqani's "Pakistan between mosque and military" to understand Paki psyche. Their delusion stems a lot from their perceived "religious superiority".

You are not going to change what a common Paki thinks unless you inflict 1971 war like defeat. Heck, Pakis started the 1965 war with the objective of capturing Kashmir, India defended and achieved its objective and still the Pakis think they won the 1965 war. This is despite them having to defend Lahore. What did it do? Pakis basked in their glory, didn't improve like we did after our 1962 defeat. Consequently lost haf of their country in 1971. Let Pakis bask in their glory. A delusional foe on one side is much better for us, with the Chinese breathing on our neck on the other side.

Note : During every war with Pakis, India's FA losses have exceeded Pakis. Did it mean that they win? No. This is because in every conflict, IAF had flown much more sorties than Pakis and most of these were risky sorties, attacking inside Paki land. Of course we would lose more aircraft. Does it matter? It does only if a loss was due to mistake, which needs to be corrected, otherwise losses are part and parcel of war. But despite losses we achieved all our objectives. And that is what matters.

 

[IRDefense]

Dude you think people in power world over get their information from global media? What does their intelligence and military do then? You know competent militaries and govt world over will study Operation Sindoor and try to find out the good tactics for themselves, just like they would be doing with Ukraine-Russia and current Iran-Israel conflicts.

I am very well aware of this. Lets ignore the media coverage & SM trends. There are few aspects to the Indian approach in Op Sindhoor:

1. India's aim is to target terror infrastructure
2. India's aim is not to escalate or target Pakistan military.
3. If Pak military escalates, India will also climb the escalation ladder & dominate it. (I am not sure if you agree with this)

Can we agree that this is the doctrine India wanted Pakistan & the world governments to understand at the start?

At the end of the Op. Modi conveyed a new doctrine:

4. Going forward India will not seperate between terrorists & Pak Military.

As to why govt didn't allow IAF to hit PAF in first instance, it seems like a lot of people here don't understand that govt had hoped that after bombing of terrorist camps, Pakis would just cope with it.

here is where I disagree with you & the govt., if this was in fact their thought process this time. I would agree with this thought process if this was 2019 when Indian military & political planners had no precendence on how Pakistan would react to an attack on terror camps. In 2019, Pakistan had all the circumstances needed to just cope. The target was remote, they spun a story about IAF missing the target, hurting only trees & crows, They could have just told the world nothing happened & coped, yet they attacked.

if our planners thought after making a public spectacle by striking prominent terror HQs, Pakistan would just cope & do nothing. I am sorry that is just piss poor planning. Any decent planner should have told you a response is coming, the only reason IAF wasn't engaged on the night of the attack in 2019 was because IAF had the advantage of surprise. Pak military planners didn't think India will actually use the airforce.

If you would have heard the CDS speak about how wars hamper economic growth, you would have known that the current govt does not want any prolonged war until India's growth story plateaus. We will not go to any war until we have achieved our potential economic status. This is the current govt policy. Every action and decision during Operation Sindoor was in support of this policy.

I don't want India to go to war either for the same economic reasons, I am not delusional enough to think we would just march into PoK, take it, free balochistan & break Pakistan. But given the precendence of 2019, India's planners should have already been operating under the doctrine of not distingusihing between terrorists & Pak military. Pakistan has already told the world that they will come to the defense of the terrorists, Indian planners giving them a second opportunity to show that was unecessarily risky or complete lack of imagination if IM thought PM will not come to their defense.

Indian military planners should have planned for a limitted escalation, they seem to have done that, very authoritatively based on the events of May 7-10 barring the ROE. But it was a tactical error that escaltion planning didn't involve taking out PAF that attempted intercepting IAF.

Pakis can claim all the victory they want. No one cares. ......

Well I think it does, what was the reason Pakistan proxies carried out an act they should have known would evoke a miltary response from India. Their militaries historicaly weak perception among the public & to bring back the bogey of the almost dead Kashmir issue.

Make no mistake, Pak military also doesn't want a long war, either. They know they wouldn't fair well. the longer it goes the more the probability of it becoming a 71 kind of rout or at least a kargil kind of embabassment. IM planners should plan to start with a bloody nose, else it is just an invitation for their military to perpetuate terror attacks in India when their domestic situation isn't great.

 

[BON PLAN]

The alleged rafale debris of rafale seems to have an mica but no meteor.

The french Rafale are fitted with Meteor only in some occasions.
The scramble air defense mission are made with Rafale with just 2 MICA IR.

As said, the day 1 of this campaign was supposed to be made with no air contest, so AASM instead of Meteor under the wings.

 

[BON PLAN]

 

[BON PLAN]

L'armée de l'air Indienne - IAF prévoit d'accroître l'acquisition de missiles Meteor pour une meilleure supériorité aérienne - Zone Armée

L'armée de l'air indienne (IAF) est sur le point de prendre une décision stratégique en vue d'accroître son acquisition du missile Meteor, un missile air-air

www.zonearmee.com

IAF intend to increase the meteor stock pile (in 2023)

 

[eastern_bhartiya]

Who exactly started the rumor that Indian Air Force Rafale are not equipped with Meteor ?

 

[IRDefense]

Who exactly started the rumor that Indian Air Force Rafale are not equipped with Meteor ?

Difficult to determine, but itis probably because of the supposed loss of a Rafale. Meteor's are supposed to outrange the Pl15Es.

 

[FalconSlayers]

View attachment 40195

Clicked over France during testing, not Indian airspace. None of the images of Meteors in Indian service exist. None.

 

[BON PLAN]

Clicked over France during testing, not Indian airspace. None of the images of Meteors in Indian service exist. None.

Have you see a pic of a SCALP under an indian Rafale in India ?

 

[BON PLAN]

Clicked over France during testing, not Indian airspace. None of the images of Meteors in Indian service exist. None.

Arms transfer database

armstransfers.sipri.org

 

[FalconSlayers]

Have you see a pic of a SCALP under an indian Rafale in India ?

View attachment PinD2.mp4

 

[Magadha Naresh]

Have you see a pic of a SCALP under an indian Rafale in India ?

Yes I have seen it .
I have it saved itself.
The jet is flying inverted , and scalp is clearly visible.

 

[Magadha Naresh]

@BON PLAN , I could find only this image .
That's a scalp, isn't it ?