AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (9 Viewers)

[Tumba]

lol are we going again?
Your private sector isn't doing R&D loll
Most want screwdrivergiri
All this 3 years delay was itself due forcing private sector involvement

pretty sure the amount govt wastes on PSU if same amount is thrown at Private India will
Have much more success

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

I think we we already had a discussion about this "lowest rcs" in past.

Navy F-35C Surfaces Wearing New Mirror-Like Skin (Updated)

The 'chrome' F-35C recently arrived at Point Mugu in California, which is hosting other specialized test aircraft for a major exercise.

www.twz.com

F35's getting that shiny coating too, IMO it's to reduce IR signature, as modern days IRST/FLIR are beginning to reach bvr level ranges in optimal conditions even against modern composite jets like f35 in subsonic cruise.

'Ceramic' means IRS reduction too.
Those skins could be combo of RF+IR stealth. And 6gen would apparently have it from beginning.
F-22 & 35 already have liquid cooling systems by PAO (Poly-Alpha-Olefin).

The following diagrams should be taken as block-diagram, not exact layout. Actual layout would be top secret.








Some publicly avaiable slides on F-35's PAO cooling system with heat exchangers:




AMCA plans to have "Vapor Compression Refrigeration" technique.
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vapor-compression_refrigeration)

 

[redpanda]

Soviets helped to make out steel plants & defence architecture but no jet R&D with them until PAKFA, AFAIK.

I have heard government wanted to hire some ex Soviet scientists and all for help with that. But our local HAL folks protested against it.

 

[redpanda]

Koreans are serious about this.
Turkans are serious about this

Neither Indian MoD( default state ) nor IAF is serious about AMCA.
PMO is totally clueless and doesn't seem to care

DRDO is just a research organization waiting on funding release and permissions from their IAS masters( political master also if the defence minister is interested in doing his job ).

I mentioned IAF because the IN had to play "pass the file" with MoD since the 80s over what would become INS Vikrant, they got the file thrown back at them twice because "we iz poor, carrier too expensive" they also redesigned it to be 20tons and capable of carrying harriers, govt was still "poor" i guess, but only in 1999 they got project sanction.

So the push either has to come from IAF or PMO.
Babooze will Baboon otherwise

Dekhte hain kya hota hai. We wasted 3 years and huge amount of money on just finding a development & production partner. To come back to the model of Tejas after experimenting with everything consultants suggested. Lmao govt paid 2 seperate consultancies a large sum of money for this. Let's see how this proposal works. In few weeks we will know about what will happen to AMCA.

 

[redpanda]

I don't understand why consultants always scam us. Just a thought in my mind. Maybe MoD babus are very guilible and have no idea about these things aside from the usual kickbacks/cuts. And they just gobble up whatever consultants throw at them. They probably don't even properly consult other shareholders like DRDO, Private industries, etc.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

I have heard government wanted to hire some ex Soviet scientists and all for help with that. But our local HAL folks protested against it.

There can be many reasons on it - social, political, financial, etc.
The more help we take, the more dependent, oblidged we might feel or become.

Also, Russians are world class spies. In cold war era it was said that every 4th or 5th citizen is lined to KGB.
And India is heaven for spies, sleeper cells, moles.
But so far we decided to stay non-alligned. We don't wanna become fully communist or capitalist as both systems have already shown huge turbulence.

 

[redpanda]

There can be many reasons on it - social, political, financial, etc.
The more help we take, the more dependent, oblidged we might feel or become.

Also, Russians are world class spies. In cold war era it was said that every 4th or 5th citizen is lined to KGB.
And India is heaven for spies, sleeper cells, moles.
But so far we decided to stay non-alligned. We don't wanna become fully communist or capitalist as both systems have already shown huge turbulence.

Tbh it was after USSR collapse and during the time when Russian were trying to be buddy buddy with USA because they had become broke..Around the same time we funded their Su-30 programme and bought it.
Americans, Chinese and Europeans poached many Russian scientists during that period of time .

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

Tbh it was after USSR collapse and during the time when Russian were trying to be buddy buddy with USA because they had become broke..Around the same time we funded their Su-30 programme and bought it.
Americans, Chinese and Europeans poached many Russian scientists during that period of time .

Americans are best poachers in world since WW days.
But they are geographically isolated, have witness protection programs, survellance systems & a mostly homogenous society.
We're just opposite which makes things tough.

 

[Savageking456]

pretty sure the amount govt wastes on PSU if same amount is thrown at Private India will
Have much more success

Bro the govt has committed 15000crore for amca prototype and even ready to setup facilities for further production still no private company is ready shows how serious industry is

 

[Spitfire IX]

Bro the govt has committed 15000crore for amca prototype and even ready to setup facilities for further production still no private company is ready shows how serious industry is

What is offered to private companies? Without experience in the field it is risky for them.

 

[redpanda]

Bro the govt has committed 15000crore for amca prototype and even ready to setup facilities for further production still no private company is ready shows how serious industry is

Tbh it isn't that simple. The issue is industry has literally no experience in this particular sector. It is akin to giving a baby the finest sword in the world and sending him to fight a war in the mediaeval times. Obviously that baby would start crying instead of actually going to war. We have neither given any smaller aerospace projects to our industries to build up that experience nor our companies have ever themselves ventured into this domain as main integrator. Yes they have made some subcomponents but making a whole jet is an entirely different affair especially a 5th gen one. It requires totally different kind of infrastructure than subcomponents. So their reluctance is very understandable. Goverment need to offer them some assurance otherwise no private company would participate, because this is entirely different kind of domain for them. One thing the government could do is subsidize their infrastructure i.e they could bear some of the cost for building that infrastructure necessary for it.

 

[Savageking456]

Goverment need to offer them some assurance otherwise no private company would participate, because this is entirely different kind of domain for them. One thing the government could do is subsidize their infrastructure i.e they could bear some of the cost for building that infrastructure necessary for it.

The assurance is offered but no response yet,hundreds of excuses that's all
Big indian private companies are incompetent especially TATA,L&T
I only see VEM and few others who are actively participating others are not investing by their pre existing budget

What is offered to private companies? Without experience in the field it is risky for them.

Then create the experience,that no private company is doing
Matlab paisa bhi chahiye aur kudh invest bhi nhi karna h facility pe
Okay forget aircraft what is L&T and TATA doing in UAVs atleast they can develop Indigenous MALE UAVs
I am yet to see basic prototype of a MALE UAV or Technology Demonstrator
L&T is still saying we need entire consortium shows how much confidence they have lol

 

[redpanda]

The assurance is offered but no response yet,hundreds of excuses that's all
Big indian private companies are incompetent especially TATA,L&T
I only see VEM and few others who are actively participating others are not investing by their pre existing budget

Then create the experience,that no private company is doing
Matlab paisa bhi chahiye aur kudh invest bhi nhi karna h facility pe
Okay forget aircraft what is L&T and TATA doing in UAVs atleast they can develop Indigenous MALE UAVs
I am yet to see basic prototype of a MALE UAV or Technology Demonstrator
L&T is still saying we need entire consortium shows how much confidence they have lol

See you need to understand the infrastructure they need for a 5th gen aircraft is very expensive affair. Nobody wants to take that much risk. Subcomponent manufacturing is very easy lol. + MoD babus are stingy bunch, so the lack of confidence among industrialists. Don't forget Baba Kalyani had to beg them for years to get his things tested. All in all it is the fear of uncertainty they have wrt to AMCA stemming from their inexperience and distrust in MoD/GoI thanks to their past antics. As we all know MoD/GoI has very little appetite of failure. PSUs can manage losses thanks to abandonment of projects but private companies can't. They still have to answer to their investors and maintain some profitability. If the government does some antics or some technological issues arises, they could be in trouble. So their fear is genuine. And our government's past antics only fake their fear a bit more solidified.

 

[Savageking456]

See you need to understand the infrastructure they need for a 5th gen aircraft is very expensive affair. Nobody wants to take that much risk. Subcomponent manufacturing is very easy lol. + MoD babus are stingy bunch, so the lack of confidence among industrialists. Don't forget Baba Kalyani had to beg them for years to get his things tested. All in all it is the fear of uncertainty they have wrt to AMCA stemming from their inexperience and distrust in MoD/GoI thanks to their past antics.

I'm not talking about all private companies I am talking about some of them,besides they have not done R&D on small level defence stuff either no male uav td,show something to get something
Bharat forge is good had no doubts on it

 

[redpanda]

I'm not talking about all private companies I am talking about some of them,besides they have not done R&D on small level defence stuff either no male uav td,show something to get something
Bharat forge is good had no doubts on it

Tbh L&T does a bit of R&D too. But they don't have the ability to make a 5th gen jet on their own even with their wealth. When they have never even made single trainer jet. Making fuselage of some jet is much more easier than assembling an entire fighter aircraft. Especially that too a 5th generation one. Consortium of two three companies are a logical choice. Even Baba Kalyani thinks the same.

 

[Savageking456]

Tbh L&T does a bit of R&D too. But they don't have the ability to make a 5th gen jet on their own even with their wealth. When they have never even made single trainer jet.

I'm dissappointed with 3 years of wasting time for private companies.
I'm pretty sure govt must have committed to provide funds and facilities for development for amca
Till now we would've seen prototype if not for this failure
Also sitting with CCS files not sanctioning is plain stupid
All are to be blamed including ADA for delaying CDR

 

[redpanda]

I'm dissappointed with 3 years of wasting time for private companies.
I'm pretty sure govt must have committed to provide funds and facilities for development for amca
Till now we would've seen prototype if not for this failure
Also sitting with CCS files not sanctioning is plain stupid
All are to be blamed

See according to some defence analyst government was not being really logical either. MoD babus were being kanjoos like how they behave with HAL. And our private players too didn't understand they don't have to build the whole infrastructure for prototypes. Basically a clear lack of communication between both. Neither MoD was communicating properly with those companies nor did them. This led to waste of time.

 

[Savageking456]

See according to some defence analyst government was not being really logical either. MoD babus were being kanjoos like how they behave with HAL. And our private players too didn't understand they don't have to build the whole infrastructure for prototypes. Basically a clear lack of communication between both. Neither MoD was communicating properly with those companies nor did them. This led to waste of time.

Fully agreed,we lack communication and we are very late,nobody denies one day we won't have amca but that would be very late
Time is precious

 

[redpanda]

Fully agreed,we lack communication and we are very late,nobody denies one day we won't have amca but that would be very late
Time is precious

I mean at this point I am fine with HAL + Private companies taking it tbh. Basically that is the most likely scenario. Or a consortium of multiple companies made with HAL as one stakeholder.

I would prefer the latter.

 

[Savageking456]

I mean at this point I am fine with HAL + Private companies taking it tbh. Basically that is the most likely scenario. Or a consortium of multiple companies made with HAL as one stakeholder.

I would prefer the latter.

Well thats what is gonna happen