AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (11 Viewers)

[akk]

It is absurd we went for ge414 deal for local assembly leaving behind 404, when we need 660 of them atleast (220 ×3 per aircraft over life cycle). Should have started with it.
Given 404 and 414 have same size and weight, we should consider replacing 404 with 414 eventually. After all, 414 is merely a derivative of 404.

 

[KAB7777]

It is absurd we went for ge414 deal for local assembly leaving behind 404, when we need 660 of them atleast (220 ×3 per aircraft over life cycle). Should have started with it.
Given 404 and 414 have same size and weight, we should consider replacing 404 with 414 eventually. After all, 414 is merely a derivative of 404.

I agree with the GE404 local line part, but the GE414 is not a dropfit solution for GE404, it will need significant change in internal plumbing and redesign of the intakes, as it produces more thrust and has a greater airflow requirement.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

F35 is a proven and mature platform.A single F35 can take out 4-8 F16 and F15 strike eagle, reported by numerous pilots who have participated in Red Flag exercises. So, if we were to acquire two squadrons of it, at least it would give us a breathing space, providing an edge over the immediate threat, such as Pakistan, and a fighting chance against China.

Pakistan has clear intentions to conduct airstrikes on India and will likely do so the moment it gains a technological advantage. There is a 90% chance of an India-Pakistan war breaking out in the next few years. Without a 5th-generation fighter, our air assets would be in immense trouble.

The AMCA is at least 10 years away and is an overly ambitious program. Such ambitions leave no room for even minor failures or delays. The agency developing it and the company manufacturing it would need to operate with efficiency surpassing that of Amazon, Apple, or Tesla. Moreover, the aircraft delivered in 2035 must incorporate 2035’s cutting-edge technologies, not those of 2025.

So,the risks of investing all resources in the AMCA are simply too high. Realistically, delays and issues during development could push the timeline to 2040. And if this were to happen,i cannot even put into words of what will happen with India.

People should simulate complete future scenario.

Technically F-35 is best option BUT it will send our so our sortie data via SatCom to USA on the name of maintenance. RCS & IRS of many of our assets picked by F-35 sensors could be sent silently, encrypted. Leave few squads, just few individuals jets would be enough to blow our cover.
Now someone might think that does Rafale send data to France.
+
If F414 engine deal is causing big hurdles then imagine for F135 premiere engine. F-35 was offered AETP upgrade but is getting just the ECU instead. They've developed XA series engines for 6gen, so will they give base F135 ToT?
+
Our MIC doesn't have some but NOT ALL the sophisticated tools & materials to make a jet like F-35.
Will USA fill the gap in our facilities?
+
Its HMDS alone is very costly & can stall us. F-35 must have a secondary mode if HMDS fails, like F-22 currently operates.

So IAF officials are also divided in their opinion, for example in this video of F-35 grounded in Tiruvananthapuram, 2 retired IAF officials argue
Air Marshal Sanjeev Kapoor
Group Captain Ajay Ahlawat


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQMsZdKvCME




I said this long back that our DoD & IAF have 10s of 1000s of employees & even they will be naturally divided in opinions.
But people should simulate future well & then see if foreign makers will agree to our needs & terms or not.
They will obviously charge as much cost as possible bcoz we & all nations actually wan't to be self-reliant as much as possible.

EU couldn't come up with 5gen on time & doesn't wan't be dependent on USA for 6gen NGAD, F/A-XX, hence they decided to take 5gen F-35 BUT initiate their own 6gen FCAS, GCAP ON TIME.

Russia is definitely up to something secret. It won't allow China to suddenly overtake & dominate, nor will it allow EU to dominate with FCAS, GCAP . They revealed Su-75 suddenly & their 6gen will come out suddenly. Hence they are pitching half cooked Su-57 for revenue.

 

[Spitfire IX]

Whoever is selected to assemble AMCA will need to build a FAL, equip it and train assembly workers. How long will that take? 3-4 years? When will GOI place an order so the process can be started?

 

[redpanda]

BhauvF35 is a proven and mature platform.A single F35 can take out 4-8 F16 and F15 strike eagle, reported by numerous pilots who have participated in Red Flag exercises. So, if we were to acquire two squadrons of it, at least it would give us a breathing space, providing an edge over the immediate threat, such as Pakistan, and a fighting chance against China.

Pakistan has clear intentions to conduct airstrikes on India and will likely do so the moment it gains a technological advantage. There is a 90% chance of an India-Pakistan war breaking out in the next few years. Without a 5th-generation fighter, our air assets would be in immense trouble.

The AMCA is at least 10 years away and is an overly ambitious program. Such ambitions leave no room for even minor failures or delays. The agency developing it and the company manufacturing it would need to operate with efficiency surpassing that of Amazon, Apple, or Tesla. Moreover, the aircraft delivered in 2035 must incorporate 2035’s cutting-edge technologies, not those of 2025.

So,the risks of investing all resources in the AMCA are simply too high. Realistically, delays and issues during development could push the timeline to 2040. And if this were to happen,i cannot even put into words of what will happen with India.

Point is F-35 isn't coming anytime soon either. And there is a very little chance of the US even selling it to us. I don't have to explain the reasons for both again and again.

Even if we assume we will get it tell me what will a standalone F-35 do without being integrated to our system? Integration will be a nightmare. And will take its sweet time. F-35 has a very highly specialised system for NATO countries. Can you tell me the solution to all these problems?

 

[redpanda]

People should simulate complete future scenario.

Technically F-35 is best option BUT it will send our so our sortie data via SatCom to USA on the name of maintenance. RCS & IRS of many of our assets picked by F-35 sensors could be sent silently, encrypted. Leave few squads, just few individuals jets would be enough to blow our cover.
Now someone might think that does Rafale send data to France.
+
If F414 engine deal is causing big hurdles then imagine for F135 premiere engine. F-35 was offered AETP upgrade but is getting just the ECU instead. They've developed XA series engines for 6gen, so will they give base F135 ToT?
+
Our MIC doesn't have some but NOT ALL the sophisticated tools & materials to make a jet like F-35.
Will USA fill the gap in our facilities?
+
Its HMDS alone is very costly & can stall us. F-35 must have a secondary mode if HMDS fails, like F-22 currently operates.

So IAF officials are also divided in their opinion, for example in this video of F-35 grounded in Tiruvananthapuram, 2 retired IAF officials argue
Air Marshal Sanjeev Kapoor
Group Captain Ajay Ahlawat


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQMsZdKvCME

View attachment 40766


I said this long back that our DoD & IAF have 10s of 1000s of employees & even they will be naturally divided in opinions.
But people should simulate future well & then see if foreign makers will agree to our needs & terms or not.
They will obviously charge as much cost as possible bcoz we & all nations actually wan't to be self-reliant as much as possible.

EU couldn't come up with 5gen on time & doesn't wan't be dependent on USA for 6gen NGAD, F/A-XX, hence they decided to take 5gen F-35 BUT initiate their own 6gen FCAS, GCAP ON TIME.

Russia is definitely up to something secret. It won't allow China to suddenly overtake & dominate, nor will it allow EU to dominate with FCAS, GCAP . They revealed Su-75 suddenly & their 6gen will come out suddenly. Hence they are pitching half cooked Su-57 for revenue.

Should we try to join that GCAP thing as backup plan? Though I fear we might get scammed.

 

[shade2]

F35 is a proven and mature platform.A single F35 can take out 4-8 F16 and F15 strike eagle, reported by numerous pilots who have participated in Red Flag exercises. So, if we were to acquire two squadrons of it, at least it would give us a breathing space, providing an edge over the immediate threat, such as Pakistan, and a fighting chance against China.

Pakistan has clear intentions to conduct airstrikes on India and will likely do so the moment it gains a technological advantage. There is a 90% chance of an India-Pakistan war breaking out in the next few years. Without a 5th-generation fighter, our air assets would be in immense trouble.

The AMCA is at least 10 years away and is an overly ambitious program. Such ambitions leave no room for even minor failures or delays. The agency developing it and the company manufacturing it would need to operate with efficiency surpassing that of Amazon, Apple, or Tesla. Moreover, the aircraft delivered in 2035 must incorporate 2035’s cutting-edge technologies, not those of 2025.

So,the risks of investing all resources in the AMCA are simply too high. Realistically, delays and issues during development could push the timeline to 2040. And if this were to happen,i cannot even put into words of what will happen with India.

Saar we won't be able to use this Mard -e- Amrekeen plane capable of taking out 10 weak mongolic Russian planes against a US treaty ally like Pakistan.
Neither against a US rival like China, because what if it gets shot down over Chinese airspace?

The US will add strict end use conditions for everything, see below post,

There is a proverb in Hindi, G bhi tumhara hi maarenge aur uska kharch bhi tumse hi wasulenge. This is what US does by selling US weapons.

US weapons are for US interests. The more the US weapons, more entrapped you are, more compromised you are. More they start dictating you. US weapons will fight for US's interests whether in Indian hands or otherwise.

India needs not touch more of US weapons by even a distance.

 

[redpanda]

Saar we won't be able to use this Mard -e- Amrekeen plane capable of taking out 10 weak mongolic Russian planes against a US treaty ally like Pakistan.
Neither against a US rival like China, because what if it gets shot down over Chinese airspace?

The US will add strict end use conditions for everything, see below post,

Exactly you don't own US origin aircrafts you lease it with full payment. And they won't even allow us to integrate it with our own systems out of fear of Russian getting something out of it.

 

[shade2]

Should we try to join that GCAP thing as backup plan? Though I fear we might get scammed.

We will get scammed
The way these things work is we pay them and they keep all of the good technology.
We may get some pointless crumbs and assembly, no know how, no how to build the good tech.

You know our C-295? That was the result of a collaboration between CASA and the Indonesian govt, the original version was built partly with their funds, Indonesians got no aerospace industry out of it but the Spaniards improved that design into the C-295.

Exactly you don't own US origin aircrafts you lease it with full payment. And they won't even allow us to integrate it with our own systems out of fear of Russian getting something out of it.

No it's because to control us and make us pay for only their special missiles and bombs
ebil ruzzian is only an excuse jhumla

 

[Migflug]

Nothing new, IAF is screwed up for foreseeable future.

There is no commitment from MoD itself. Government apathy is going on. Every deal is going with scrutiny so Babus can save some 50 cents. At the same time we buy overpriced products without batting an eye.

As of now, UCAF (Ghatak) is still not sanctioned. So don't expect Ghatak anytime before 2030. MWF will be coming only by 2029. Again this depends on how fast HAL is closing GE F414 Deal. MRFA is another clownshow, when we can done the same G2G for Rafales. AMCA being AMCA is highly Dicey bet, we are trying to find an Engine Partner for an 120KN thrust class. Now if the engine partner is not decided, then the program will face scrutiny by IAF itself. (Classic HAL\DRDO overpromise and underdeliver).


Only real thing we can do is to order 97 Tejas MK1A which can support the fleet for few years before we sanctioned something like MRFA (Again I am worried that we may never going to integrate the Indian Weapons in Rafale), where we bite the bullet and order the planes with inflated cost.

The MRFA deal risks repeating the same limitations we're currently facing with the Rafale—namely, the inability to integrate indigenous weapons systems. While it may seem optimistic, I genuinely believe that in several areas of missile technology, India now stands just behind the U.S. and China, and these capabilities must be seamlessly integrated into our platforms.

Moreover, the era when the aircraft platform alone dominated the skies is over. Modern and future warfare is increasingly about networked, multi-domain operations where platforms coordinate in real-time to detect, target, and strike. In such a scenario, the launch platform, like a jet, is still the MVP, but not the only player anymore, and that's why the quality of launch vehicle may not matter much in the future.

 

[redpanda]

The MRFA deal risks repeating the same limitations we're currently facing with the Rafale—namely, the inability to integrate indigenous weapons systems. While it may seem optimistic, I genuinely believe that in several areas of missile technology, India now stands just behind the U.S. and China, and these capabilities must be seamlessly integrated into our platforms.

Moreover, the era when the aircraft platform alone dominated the skies is over. Modern and future warfare is increasingly about networked, multi-domain operations where platforms coordinate in real-time to detect, target, and strike. In such a scenario, the launch platform, like a jet, is still the MVP, but not the only player anymore, and that's why the quality of launch vehicle may not matter much in the future.

MRFA will have explicit clauses. So whichever vendor get selected will have to obey those conditions. So integration will better than off the shelf purchases.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

Should we try to join that GCAP thing as backup plan? Though I fear we might get scammed.

What exactly can we offer to EU when they are already ahead in every tech - engine, sensors, materials, virtual cockpit, etc?
INR is far weaker currency to Euro, UKP.

If some African or SE Asian country wants to join AMCA program, with 1 INR = say 50-60 units of their currency, what will they offer us?

The only thing i can think a weak entity can offer is labor, manufacturing facility.
From strong currency PoV it is cheap.
From weak currency PoV it is good enough.
That's how our Indian IT industry is working with West since 1990s.

So, will EU agree to assemble GCAP or FCAS in India with some ToT?
Will India agree to assemble AMCA in Africa or SE Asia with giving them some ToT?

In both cases, a srong joint-vigilance has to be setup to prevent espionage & leaks for this entire century.

 

[redpanda]

What exactly can we offer to EU when they are already ahead in every tech - engine, sensors, materials, virtual cockpit, etc?
INR is far weaker currency to Euro, UKP.

If some African or SE Asian country wants to join AMCA program, with 1 INR = say 50-60 units of their currency, what will they offer us?

The only thing i can think a weak entity can offer is labor, manufacturing facility.
From strong currency PoV it is cheap.
From weak currency PoV it is good enough.
That's how our Indian IT industry is working with West since 1990s.

So, will EU agree to assemble GCAP or FCAS in India with some ToT?
Will India agree to assemble AMCA in Africa or SE Asia with giving them some ToT?

In both cases, a srong joint-vigilance has to be setup to prevent espionage & leaks for this entire century.

I won't say they are ahead in everything. There are certain areas where we are on par with them or just a few years behind them. Like when it comes to Radar techs, designing embedded systems (we don't have mass manufacturing), etc.

 

[shade2]

I won't say they are ahead in everything. There are certain areas where we are on par with them or just a few years behind them. Like when it comes to Radar techs.

They are not ahead in money.
It is why they look for foreign partners from third world countries that can spare some $$$.

In the French program the Spaniards are also there but they are the weakest partner.
Atleast the UK-Italy-Japan program me everybody can contribute something.

 

[jaijaganath]

Whoever is selected to assemble AMCA will need to build a FAL, equip it and train assembly workers. How long will that take? 3-4 years? When will GOI place an order so the process can be started?

You r living in fantasy bro
8 years after contract signing is official but in actual it will take 15+ years

 

[Migflug]

MRFA will have explicit clauses. So whichever vendor get selected will have to obey those conditions. So integration will better than off the shelf purchases.

We paid $1.5 billion for India specific enhancement which yet to be done. Indian Rafales yet to have spice 2000, Lightening Pod, Astra. That's why we used Hammer and Talios in the Operation Sindoor. On top it, there are rumours that our Rafale is yet to have Meteor which was it's silver bullet.
In simple no amount of clauses can get your indigenous weapons(&weapons that you use) integrateed with foreign weapon in desired timeframe!! For that you have to use indigenous platforms or Su30

 

[pipebomb]

why we need our 5 genration fighter carry brahmos A like approx 8 meter length nd 3500 kg supersonic missile in its internal weapon bay? for that we hv some 40+ su 30 mki to carry nd launch these missiles from safer 600-800 km range. we can launch brahmos from ground trucks nd naval ships also to assist air force. for other 4 nd 4.5 genration fighters, we will develop smaller brahmos ng. brahmos nd upcoming hypersonic cruise missile (in internal bay) only need if we want to cross tibbet nd launch brahmos to coastal nd north side of china. but its dangerous for 5 genration to penetrate deep inside of chinese air space. its better to develop ground/ship based conventional ballistic missiles with 5000 km range nd cruise missiles with 2500-3000 km range to hit deep inside chinese land. or we can develop a bigger ghatak (B2 bomber type) in future to hv internal bays, which can carry cruise missiles inside.
Rudram 1 is also lengthy anti radiation missile near 5.5 meter height. so it also cant fit in AMCA supposed 4.5 meter internal bay. good thing is we hv rudram 2 (300 km range) nd rudram 3 (500 km range) anti radiation missiles. so AMCA can carry them in their hardpoints nd release them from far distance. later it can carry on its mission in stealthy mode, by its interanl BVR missiles or SAAW type ground missiles.

If you look at AMCA IWB it's become clear that it doesn't have much flexibility. The dimensions are so small that you can't even develope custom hypersonic/supersonic missiles for it

600-800 km ground launch BrahMos aren't sufficient enough for Tibetan plateau. And there is still question mark on how effective mki going be in penetrating AD dense Tibetan air space

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

I won't say they are ahead in everything. There are certain areas where we are on par with them or just a few years behind them. Like when it comes to Radar techs, designing embedded systems (we don't have mass manufacturing), etc.

DRDO does a lot of work, but exactly in what are we ahead of them?

Radar? We have come up with GaN Uttam radar, etc just now, while they have done it way back that's why they are so confident with their 6gen.
Their chemical engineers do R&D with all elements & compounds, proactively.
Our DRDO also does it but how many things have we invented 1st?

Embedded systems? What is status of our HMDS?

We've mass population, rural & urban, mass manufacturing in automobiles but not Defence!!! All political parties in last 3 deades & HAL must answer.

 

[Doreamon]

As of now I have read atleast 3 websites claiming that india planning for su57 . Licence production and localisation in the card . The claim is india asking Russia for agreeing to integrate indian avionics . Probably wants virupakhya Gan radar with 2600 trm . But Russians are not very happy about it . I don't know if they are making story in the air or there is indeed something to it.

 

[redpanda]

We paid $1.5 billion for India specific enhancement which yet to be done. Indian Rafales yet to have spice 2000, Lightening Pod, Astra. That's why we used Hammer and Talios in the Operation Sindoor. On top it, there are rumours that our Rafale is yet to have Meteor which was it's silver bullet.
In simple no amount of clauses can get your indigenous weapons(&weapons that you use) integrateed with foreign weapon in desired timeframe!! For that you have to use indigenous platforms or Su30

Rafale was G2G deal aka an off the shelf purchase. We later paid for enhancement. MRFA will have explicit clauses that every participants have to adhere. If they don't abide by those clauses there will be penalties. India doesn't shy away from putting penalties.