AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft

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Nope. None of those links show 5th generation mission profile. They show SEAD/DEAD of 4++ generation profile. Lobbing missiles at ADS from 100s of kms away is 4th gen mission profile.
So where is your 5th generation mission profile in evidence ?? in WHICH mission has stealth evaded airborne and ground ADS to strike high value target INSIDE ADS envelope ?? Date and citation please.

You have not refuted that stealth is anything more than on paper for its STATED MISSION PROFILE.
else, show me evidence. citation or apology. Your choice, kid.

Lol we have an emotional peep here whose self esteem is so futile that even after presenting him with multiple sources he chose to be an ignorant..nd is demanding apology from a random internet stranger why?? Because his claims has been refuted but he still believes in some ludicrous analogy claiming paxtan has more lethal ADS than Iran nd countries are just fooling themselves investing in stealth fighters.

Oki chill mate .. all is farce .. world is fool investing billion or dollars in lemons (stealth fighters).. we believe u 🫡
 
Lol we have an emotional peep here whose self esteem is so futile that even after presenting him with multiple sources he chose to be an ignorant..nd is demanding apology from a random internet stranger why?? Because his claims has been refuted but he still believes in some ludicrous analogy claiming paxtan has more lethal ADS than Iran nd countries are just fooling themselves investing in stealth fighters.

Oki chill mate .. all is farce .. world is fool investing billion or dollars in lemons (stealth fighters).. we believe u 🫡
Your mutliple sources all show 4th gen SEAD mission. which source of yours shows a 5th generation mission profile of your own charts ? Kindly say so for us delusional people...
Else you stand refuted. Cope.
 
Your mutliple sources all show 4th gen SEAD mission. which source of yours shows a 5th generation mission profile of your own charts ? Kindly say so for us delusional people...
Else you stand refuted. Cope.
Hehe i pity u..

I provided multiple links on Isreali operation days of repentance nd its use of F35.. but u chose to remain ignorant nd responded with ludicrous claim of Iran having far inferior capability than paxtan... Lol that paxtan who can't even produce a 70cc moped engine on it's own.. to the IRAN which has literacy rate of 89% nd has invested heavily in indigenous ballistic missiles nd ADS.. while paxtan which only has chinese nd NOKO green painted knockoffs nd it hasn't seen any new development in the domestic ballistic missiles nd ADS since ages.

My claim- F35 raided IRAN superior ADS with multiple links

Ur claim- IRAN has "FAR" inferior ADS capabilities than paxtan even on paper without any links

We all know who is coping here..

Oki i will apologise to u if u can prove if u can prove ur ludicrous claim that paxtan has stronger ADS capabilities than Iran.

Citation needed.
 
Noone is against stealth tech but all I am saying not to haste in importing from snakes just because Pakistan has J35. It's should be comprehensive decision by taking into account our strategies and tactics and most importantly network integration, without it a standalone platform is good for nothing

To be clear having F35/Su57 won't deter pakis J35 to attack us , Assuming it is stealth ..it will attack us nonetheless .
Stealth vectors do not detect other stealth vectors . When we can target any area in Pakistan without any stealth platform I don't see any urgency in that department .

Better to work on Man machine teaming and drones (Male / Hale and swarms) . That would be a game changer
There is no silver bullet but a layered strategy which gives you advantage

However AMCA is very crucial ,focus on that rather than importing
 
Noone is against stealth tech but all I am saying not to haste in importing from snakes just because Pakistan has J35. It's should be comprehensive decision by taking into account our strategies and tactics and most importantly network integration, without it a standalone platform is good for nothing

To be clear having F35/Su57 won't deter pakis J35 to attack us , Assuming it is stealth ..it will attack us nonetheless .
Stealth vectors do not detect other stealth vectors . When we can target any area in Pakistan without any stealth platform I don't see any urgency in that department .

Better to work on Man machine teaming and drones (Male / Hale and swarms) . That would be a game changer
There is no silver bullet but a layered strategy which gives you advantage

However AMCA is very crucial ,focus on that rather than importing
Deterrence effects can only be realised when u have the deterrence capabilities in ur arsenal..

IAF vs PAF whole history is riddled with multiple examples of cat nd mouse game of having upmanship nd acquiring or building deterrence against the perceived threat.

Here's the timeline of IAF vis a vis PAF deterrence nd capabilities acquisition..nd how multiple times deterrence has worked in undermining the adversary.

In 1982 PAF acquired F-16
alarm bell rang in IAF nd it rushed to acquire mirage 2000 in 1982 when it was still in flight testing.. nd it also acquired mig29 in 1984 to respond to PAF F-16 threat.

In 1999 kargil war PAF lacked BVR capabilities while IAF had the same so it deterred PAF to even do CAP nd force posturing.. IAF mig 29 locked PAF F-16 in multiple instances forcing PAF to go into hiding.. deterrence worked!!

Also very few people knows that IAF mirages even bombed paxtani intruders in year 2002 kel area during operation parakram while PAF didn't respond to IAF bombing due to BVR deterrence again.


In recent times-
In year 2016 IAF signed for 36 rafales alarm bell rang in PAF HQ they responded to meteor and aesa radar equipped Rafale with 20 j10CE in year 2019 with deliveries starting in 2021-22

For ADS -
India signed for long range ADS S400 in year 2018.. PAF responded it with signing for HQ9B in year 2019-20

In year 2019 during balakot IAF lost it's BVR advantage to PAF AMRAAMs equipped f16s thus after balakot PAF responded Within 24 hours with swift retort coz IAF had lost it's BVR deterrence.. IAF was also found lacking in SDR

Again alarm bell rang in IAF hq after balakot nd it rushed to acquire BVRs nd SDR to achieve parity..

Now in operation sindoor IAF bombed the target assigned to it nd struck heart of paxtani punjab.. while PAF went into hiding nd couldn't even repeat a swift retort like drama which they did within 24 hours in 2019.. even after 4 days of fighting PAF was completely missing from the picture once rules of engagement was relaxed for IAF.. IAF bombed whole length nd breadth of paxtan.. struck their most secure airbases while accounting for 2 prized saab 2000 awacs (one in air with S400 nd one in ground) also killed their squadron leader Usman Yousuf among few other chaps.. while PAF chose to remain silent nd didn't even ventured near border.. it thus asked PA to launch few cheap chinese weishi rockets to save face of it's nation among it's awaam.

Why?? Why the most jazbe wali PAF wasn't able to repeat swift retort type drama this time?? Well it was Because of deterrence in the form of S400 stationed in Admapur that punctured the whole ORBAT of PAF.. the deterrence worked!!

So we have multiple occasions where IAF had strong deterrence nd it prevented PAF from doing any misadventurism. So DETERRENCE does work when u have the capability to demean ur adversary warfighting capabilities!!

Now PAF is acquiring J35 nd this will enable them to employ it against S400 effectively to wean off its deterrence..nd it risk in increasing attrition rate for IAF in case of any future conflict (which is certain to happen)

Now ball is in IAF court will it just sit idle see it's deterrence wean off or it will act proactively nd build it's deterrence again to deter any misadventures from PAF in future.. IAF response is remains to be seen but i am quite sure that IAF WILL not squander it's newfound deterrence after operation sindoor.. the game of cat nd mouse will go on.
 
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Deterrence effects can only be realised when u have the deterrence capabilities in ur arsenal..

IAF vs PAF whole history is riddled with multiple examples of cat nd mouse game of having upmanship nd acquiring or building deterrence against the perceived threat.

Here's the timeline of IAF vis a vis PAF deterrence nd capabilities acquisition..nd how multiple times deterrence has worked in undermining the adversary.

In 1982 PAF acquired F-16
alarm bell rang in IAF nd it rushed to acquire mirage 2000 in 1982 when it was still in flight testing.. nd it also acquired mig29 in 1984 to respond to PAF F-16 threat.

In 1999 kargil war PAF lacked BVR capabilities while IAF had the same so it deterred PAF to even do CAP nd force posturing.. IAF mig 29 locked PAF F-16 in multiple instances forcing PAF to go into hiding.. deterrence worked!!

Also very few people knows that IAF mirages even bombed paxtani intruders in year 2002 kel area during operation parakram while PAF didn't respond to IAF bombing due to BVR deterrence again.


In recent times-
In year 2016 IAF signed for 36 rafales alarm bell rang in PAF HQ they responded to meteor and aesa radar equipped Rafale with 20 j10CE in year 2019 with deliveries starting in 2021-22

For ADS -
India signed for long range ADS S400 in year 2018.. PAF responded it with signing for HQ9B in year 2019-20

In year 2019 during balakot IAF lost it's BVR advantage to PAF AMRAAMs equipped f16s thus after balakot PAF responded Within 24 hours with swift retort coz IAF had lost it's BVR deterrence.. IAF was also found lacking in SDR

Again alarm bell rang in IAF hq after balakot nd it rushed to acquire BVRs nd SDR to achieve parity..

Now in operation sindoor IAF bombed the target assigned to it nd struck heart of paxtani punjab.. while PAF went into hiding nd couldn't even repeat a swift retort like drama which they did within 24 hours in 2019.. even after 4 days of fighting PAF was completely missing from the picture once rules of engagement was relaxed for IAF.. IAF bombed whole length nd breadth of paxtan.. struck their most secure airbases while accounting for 2 prized saab 2000 awacs (one in air with S400 nd one in ground) also killed their squadron leader Usman Yousuf among few other chaps.. while PAF chose to remain silent nd didn't even ventured near border.. it thus asked PA to launch few cheap chinese weishi rockets to save face of it's nation among it's awaam.

Why?? Why the most jazbe wali PAF wasn't able to repeat swift retort type drama this time?? Well it was Because of deterrence in the form of S400 stationed in Admapur that punctured the whole ORBAT of PAF.. the deterrence worked!!

So we have multiple occasions where IAF had strong deterrence nd it prevented PAF from doing any misadventurism. So DETERRENCE does work when u have the capability to demean ur adversary warfighting capabilities!!

Now PAF is acquiring J35 nd this will enable them to employ it against S400 effectively to wean off its deterrence..nd it risk in increasing attrition rate for IAF in case of any future conflict (which is certain to happen)

Now ball is in IAF court will it just sit idle see it's deterrence wean off or it will act proactively nd build it's deterrence again to deter any misadventures from PAF in future.. IAF response is remains to be seen but i am quite sure that IAF WILL not squander it's newfound deterrence after operation sindoor.. the game of cat nd mouse will go on.
In the humble opinion of this random defence nerd—
Can someone explain to me how acquiring a fifth-generation fighter suddenly becomes equivalent to countering a fifth-generation fighter?

The whole point of a stealth aircraft — whether it’s a J-35 or an F-35 — is that it’s not supposed to come and fight you head-on in the first place. Its core advantage is not being seen. It’s designed to slip through your sensor nets, hit high-value or exposed targets, and get out without triggering a kinetic response. It’s not here for a Top Gun dogfight. So, what exactly are you “countering” by buying a 5th gen fighter of your own? The shadow of a possibility that one day both pilots will politely agree to meet and duel?

Look, would it be nice to have our own stealth platform? Of course. But that’s called AMCA, and it’s already in the pipeline. If off-the-shelf F-35 came with full ecosystem access, no strings, and actual strategic fit, maybe it’s a conversation.

And if the answer to “they have stealth” is “quick, let’s spend $40Billion for platform parity,” then we’ve already lost the plot.

What counters stealth is not stealth. It’s:

– Multi-static radar nets

– Passive detection (IRST, ELINT triangulation)

– A distributed sensor web with redundancy

– EW systems to disrupt kill chains

– Long-range precision munitions

– Air defence systems like S-400, Akash-NG, and point defences

– And most importantly, a functioning C4ISR backbone that can fuse all this data into usable insight

You know what doesn’t help? Buying a boutique stealth fighter that can’t integrate into any of the above.

And by the way, Operation Sindoor already demonstrated that India can strike deep targets with standoff PGMs launched from 4.5-gen platforms. We achieved effect without getting into the stealth Olympics.

Yes there is a more doctrinally-aligned counter-stealth platform out there Su-57. Fair — it has L-band radars, IRST, and space for multispectral sensors. It could evolve into a real counter-stealth asset.

But even that assumes a robust network to detect the stealth aircraft in the first place and vector the Su-57 in. No aircraft — not even one designed to counter stealth — works in isolation

Moreover, Su-57 as it exists today is still isn’t that platform yet. It would need the AL-51F1 engine, heavy Indian customization — new AESA radars, EW suite, weapons integration — not to mention the whole CAATSA situation. So yes, it’s an option, but one that comes with a large asterisk, a big invoice and most importantly still may not come in timelines to give you the much needed psychological succour.
 
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In the humble opinion of this random defence nerd—
Can someone explain to me how acquiring a fifth-generation fighter suddenly becomes equivalent to countering a fifth-generation fighter?

The whole point of a stealth aircraft — whether it’s a J-35 or an F-35 — is that it’s not supposed to come and fight you head-on in the first place. Its core advantage is not being seen. It’s designed to slip through your sensor nets, hit high-value or exposed targets, and get out without triggering a kinetic response. It’s not here for a Top Gun dogfight. So, what exactly are you “countering” by buying a 5th gen fighter of your own? The shadow of a possibility that one day both pilots will politely agree to meet and duel?

Look, would it be nice to have our own stealth platform? Of course. But that’s called AMCA, and it’s already in the pipeline. If off-the-shelf F-35 came with full ecosystem access, no strings, and actual strategic fit, maybe it’s a conversation.

And if the answer to “they have stealth” is “quick, let’s spend $40Billion for platform parity,” then we’ve already lost the plot.

What counters stealth is not stealth. It’s:

– Multi-static radar nets

– Passive detection (IRST, ELINT triangulation)

– A distributed sensor web with redundancy

– EW systems to disrupt kill chains

– Long-range precision munitions

– Air defence systems like S-400, Akash-NG, and point defences

– And most importantly, a functioning C4ISR backbone that can fuse all this data into usable insight

You know what doesn’t help? Buying a boutique stealth fighter that can’t integrate into any of the above.

And by the way, Operation Sindoor already demonstrated that India can strike deep targets with standoff PGMs launched from 4.5-gen platforms. We achieved effect without getting into the stealth Olympics.

Su-57 is a more doctrinally-aligned counter-stealth platform. Fair — it has L-band radars, IRST, and space for multispectral sensors. It could evolve into a real counter-stealth asset.

But even that assumes a robust network to detect the stealth aircraft in the first place and vector the Su-57 in. No aircraft — not even one designed to counter stealth — works in isolation

Moreover, Su-57 as it exists today is still isn’t that platform yet. It would need the AL-51F1 engine, heavy Indian customization — new AESA radars, EW suite, weapons integration — not to mention the whole CAATSA situation. So yes, it’s an option, but one that comes with a large asterisk, a big invoice and most importantly still may not come in timelines to give you the much needed psychological succour.
This is what I am trying to say ..Thank you for being more elaborative
Stealth is crucial but we have to look at our priorities and act accordingly
Just because Pakistan has J35 do not warrant us to purchase off the shelves F35 or Su57 . We need to be smart and focus on countering stealth . Doing that we can make our fifth Gen platform more mature ..
 
In the humble opinion of this random defence nerd—
Can someone explain to me how acquiring a fifth-generation fighter suddenly becomes equivalent to countering a fifth-generation fighter?

The whole point of a stealth aircraft — whether it’s a J-35 or an F-35 — is that it’s not supposed to come and fight you head-on in the first place. Its core advantage is not being seen. It’s designed to slip through your sensor nets, hit high-value or exposed targets, and get out without triggering a kinetic response. It’s not here for a Top Gun dogfight. So, what exactly are you “countering” by buying a 5th gen fighter of your own? The shadow of a possibility that one day both pilots will politely agree to meet and duel?

Look, would it be nice to have our own stealth platform? Of course. But that’s called AMCA, and it’s already in the pipeline. If off-the-shelf F-35 came with full ecosystem access, no strings, and actual strategic fit, maybe it’s a conversation.

And if the answer to “they have stealth” is “quick, let’s spend $40Billion for platform parity,” then we’ve already lost the plot.

What counters stealth is not stealth. It’s:

– Multi-static radar nets

– Passive detection (IRST, ELINT triangulation)

– A distributed sensor web with redundancy

– EW systems to disrupt kill chains

– Long-range precision munitions

– Air defence systems like S-400, Akash-NG, and point defences

– And most importantly, a functioning C4ISR backbone that can fuse all this data into usable insight

You know what doesn’t help? Buying a boutique stealth fighter that can’t integrate into any of the above.

And by the way, Operation Sindoor already demonstrated that India can strike deep targets with standoff PGMs launched from 4.5-gen platforms. We achieved effect without getting into the stealth Olympics.

Su-57 is a more doctrinally-aligned counter-stealth platform. Fair — it has L-band radars, IRST, and space for multispectral sensors. It could evolve into a real counter-stealth asset.

But even that assumes a robust network to detect the stealth aircraft in the first place and vector the Su-57 in. No aircraft — not even one designed to counter stealth — works in isolation

Moreover, Su-57 as it exists today is still isn’t that platform yet. It would need the AL-51F1 engine, heavy Indian customization — new AESA radars, EW suite, weapons integration — not to mention the whole CAATSA situation. So yes, it’s an option, but one that comes with a large asterisk, a big invoice and most importantly still may not come in timelines to give you the much needed psychological succour.
I agree with most of your point besides the you don't need a 5th gen platform to counter another 5th gen platform.
a 5th gen platform is like a nuclear bomb, if both sides have them it's mutually assured destruction which will act as a deterrence otherwise we will be at a defensive and it's just we will shoot down your nuclear ICBMs copium.
Yes Counter Stealth can help a lot (just like BMD can help with nuclear weapons) but the deterrence mutually assured destruction brings is unmatched

Your 5th gen platform will penetrate our IADS and destroy targets in our territory,
SIKE
We can do the same to you.
 
In the humble opinion of this random defence nerd—
Can someone explain to me how acquiring a fifth-generation fighter suddenly becomes equivalent to countering a fifth-generation fighter?

The whole point of a stealth aircraft — whether it’s a J-35 or an F-35 — is that it’s not supposed to come and fight you head-on in the first place. Its core advantage is not being seen. It’s designed to slip through your sensor nets, hit high-value or exposed targets, and get out without triggering a kinetic response. It’s not here for a Top Gun dogfight. So, what exactly are you “countering” by buying a 5th gen fighter of your own? The shadow of a possibility that one day both pilots will politely agree to meet and duel?

Look, would it be nice to have our own stealth platform? Of course. But that’s called AMCA, and it’s already in the pipeline. If off-the-shelf F-35 came with full ecosystem access, no strings, and actual strategic fit, maybe it’s a conversation.

And if the answer to “they have stealth” is “quick, let’s spend $40Billion for platform parity,” then we’ve already lost the plot.

What counters stealth is not stealth. It’s:

– Multi-static radar nets

– Passive detection (IRST, ELINT triangulation)

– A distributed sensor web with redundancy

– EW systems to disrupt kill chains

– Long-range precision munitions

– Air defence systems like S-400, Akash-NG, and point defences

– And most importantly, a functioning C4ISR backbone that can fuse all this data into usable insight

You know what doesn’t help? Buying a boutique stealth fighter that can’t integrate into any of the above.

And by the way, Operation Sindoor already demonstrated that India can strike deep targets with standoff PGMs launched from 4.5-gen platforms. We achieved effect without getting into the stealth Olympics.

Yes there is a more doctrinally-aligned counter-stealth platform out there Su-57. Fair — it has L-band radars, IRST, and space for multispectral sensors. It could evolve into a real counter-stealth asset.

But even that assumes a robust network to detect the stealth aircraft in the first place and vector the Su-57 in. No aircraft — not even one designed to counter stealth — works in isolation

Moreover, Su-57 as it exists today is still isn’t that platform yet. It would need the AL-51F1 engine, heavy Indian customization — new AESA radars, EW suite, weapons integration — not to mention the whole CAATSA situation. So yes, it’s an option, but one that comes with a large asterisk, a big invoice and most importantly still may not come in timelines to give you the much needed psychological succour.
And then there’s the larger strategic question: if you’re going to spend that kind of money, what exactly are you not funding instead?

Every rupee poured into trying to retrofit and modernize the Su-57 is a rupee not spent on co-developing a sixth-generation engine with someone like Rolls-Royce. It’s a rupee not invested in CATS Warrior, in swarm autonomy, in mission-aware AI-enabled wingmen. The future isn’t just about stealth platforms — it’s about stealth platforms embedded in autonomous, networked kill webs. That’s where the real edge will lie: in being able to operate a manned-unmanned teaming ecosystem, with scalable tactical autonomy and full-spectrum ISR fusion.

And for that, you don’t need boutique imports like the F-35, where you’ll not only pay a premium for the aircraft, but then have to go begging for the corresponding loyal wingman platform, integration rights, training modules, and software updates. You’ll still be waiting for the Americans to hand you the next API key.

Instead of chasing 5th gen optics or psychological comfort, we should be putting our resources into building the foundational infrastructure for 6th gen warfare — engines, data links, cloud-based battle management systems, AI autonomy cores, and weapons that make the platform almost secondary.
 
I agree with most of your point besides the you don't need a 5th gen platform to counter another 5th gen platform.
a 5th gen platform is like a nuclear bomb, if both sides have them it's mutually assured destruction which will act as a deterrence otherwise we will be at a defensive and it's just we will shoot down your nuclear ICBMs copium.
Yes Counter Stealth can help a lot (just like BMD can help with nuclear weapons) but the deterrence mutually assured destruction brings is unmatched

Your 5th gen platform will penetrate our IADS and destroy targets in our territory,
SIKE
We can do the same to you.
You penetrated Pakistani ADS without any stealth using long range stand off weapons. They couldn’t stop a Brahmos, do you think they can stop the HGVs you recently tested.

Can China stop either of them? With its limited airbases near India and the mountains deteriorating its detection capabilities? With its fragile choke prone supply lines into the Tibetan plateau and difficulty mobilising acclimatised troops?

Warfare is not one dimensional. It is appearing so because you were fighting Pakistanis under a limited escalation scenario. And hence you fall into the trap of platform vs platform debates.

The fact that Pakis celebrate M.M Alam for his air to air kills while their tank columns got brutally fucked at longewala — because there was no air cover. There was no air cover because the PAF was busy fighting its own air to air war — should tell you something about falling into the one dimensional conflict trap.

Pakis are delusional idiots the risk is when you debate these idiots they drag you into the same mud they are trapped in. Don’t be an idiot like them.
 
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AMCA apart of stealth should have inbuilt machine teaming capability . This is where cost incurred during loses can substantially reduced . Manned platform can hover inside ones airspace and guide the unmanned vectors inside enemy territory to perform SEAD , DEAD and eventual air dominance. Once you achieve air dominance Su30 will become a beast it is supposed to be.

Warfare is chasing dynamically . With minimal casualties on both side it took us 3 days to bring Pakistan on its knees . We need to change accordingly
We have lots of ground to cover and our budget is peanuts , we need to use it judiciously..
 
You penetrated Pakistani ADS without any stealth using long range stand off weapons. They couldn’t stop a Brahmos, do you think they can stop the HGVs you recently tested.

Can China stop either of them? With its limited airbases near India and the mountains deteriorating its detection capabilities? With its fragile choke prone supply lines into the Tibetan plateau and difficulty mobilising acclimatised troops?

Warfare is not one dimensional. It is appearing so because you were fighting Pakistanis under a limited escalation scenario. And hence you fall into the trap of platform vs platform debates.

The fact that Pakis celebrate M.M Alam for his air to air kills while their tank columns got brutally fucked at longewala — because there was no air cover. There was no air cover because the PAF was busy fighting its own air to air war — should tell you something about falling into the one dimensional conflict trap.

Pakis are delusional idiots the risk is when you debate these idiots they drag you into the same mud they are trapped in. Don’t be an idiot like them.
You penetrated Pakistani ADS without any stealth using long range stand off weapons. They couldn’t stop a Brahmos, do you think they can stop the HGVs you recently tested.

Can China stop either of them? With its limited airbases near India and the mountains deteriorating its detection capabilities? With its fragile choke prone supply lines into the Tibetan plateau and difficulty mobilising acclimatised troops?

Warfare is not one dimensional. It is appearing so because you were fighting Pakistanis under a limited escalation scenario. And hence you fall into the trap of platform vs platform debates.

The fact that Pakis celebrate M.M Alam for his air to air kills while their tank columns got brutally fucked at longewala — because there was no air cover. There was no air cover because the PAF was busy fighting its own air to air war — should tell you something about falling into the one dimensional conflict trap.

Pakis are delusional idiots the risk is when you debate these idiots they drag you into the same mud they are trapped in. Don’t be an idiot like them.
And just to extend this briefly — look at what the Pakistanis are doing post-Operation Sindoor. This isn’t the thread to go deep into that, so I won’t linger, but it’s worth a glance. Instead of investing in ways to distribute and harden their lethality, knowing full well their air defence systems can’t guarantee coverage against long-range precision strikes, they’re doubling down on symbolic acquisitions like the J-35.

A platform that, like the F-35 it imitates— that too without the refined anerican engines— will almost certainly be a hangar queen under South Asian operating conditions — requiring intensive maintenance, highly controlled basing infrastructure, and specialized logistics they’re nowhere near being able to support. It makes them more base-centric, not more survivable. The smart move — the move Sweden made — is to decentralize: adopt high-mobility operations, invest in rapid dispersal, and build mobile sustainment capability. If you can’t guarantee interception, deny targeting. But that would require doctrinal clarity, not Instagram reels of fighters landing on highways.

The irony is, Pakistan has done public motorway landings to show off this capability — and then gone right back to basing their core combat assets in obvious, fixed, vulnerable locations, with no serious investment in mobile sustainment. They’re playing a prestige game, not a survivability one.
 
Went back and read the entire thread there was a lot of discussion about S-400 being the real deterrent and Iranian layered air defences.

So let’s address this idea that the S-400 alone was the reason Pakistan blinked during Operation Sindoor, or that next time, J-35s will slice through our air defense like F-35 supposedly did in Iran.

First, let’s be clear: layered air defense without an integrated C4ISR backbone is a paper tiger. You can detect. You can shoot. But if you can’t hide your emitters, coordinate fire control across platforms, or respond in real time with system-wide data fusion — you’ll just die loudly and expensively.

This is what happened to Iran. They had layers — TORs, Bavar-373s, Khordad systems — but no fused picture. So when Israeli F-35s came in, they exploited the gaps and silos.

Same story with Russia. Their S-400s weren’t defeated by stealth; they were outmaneuvered because the kill chain wasn’t resilient. You don’t need fifth-gen aircraft to dismantle an unintegrated air defense blob. Ukraine proved that — they broke S-400 sites with a mix of drones, decoys, and legacy systems, precisely because those Russian defenses couldn’t operate in a distributed, survivable fashion.

Meanwhile, India could keep S-400s silent, cueing them using Ashwini’s and Ashleshas. While Rajendras, or even Flycatcher could work as fire control radars via IACCS’s distributed fire control. That’s real deterrence. Not the radar. Not the missile. The invisible nervous system behind it all.


So no — the hero wasn’t S-400. It was IACCS. And if Pakistan had fielded an S-400 during Sindoor? We’d have wrecked it anyway. Because they don’t have that nervous system. No fused ISR, no distributed fire control, no doctrine of survivability. Just another boutique asset, alone and radiating
 
And finally let’s not forget — the Indian Air Force has been watching the rise of China’s J-20 fleet for over a decade now. This isn’t some sudden panic because Pakistan might get its hands on a few J-35s. If stealth fighters were the final word in air dominance, the IAF would have scrambled to close that gap already. Instead, it’s quietly invested in counter-stealth capabilities: passive detection, multiband radar coverage (including VHF/GaN), IRST-equipped platforms, data-fused command nets like IACCS, and hardening its SEAD/DEAD toolkit. The fact that there’s been no urgent push for a fifth-gen stopgap tells you one thing — they’re not flying blind. A counter-stealth doctrine is already in place, one that doesn’t rely on “matching” stealth with stealth, but rather on rendering it ineffective through layered ISR, smart positioning, and rapid-response fire control.
 
And then there’s the larger strategic question: if you’re going to spend that kind of money, what exactly are you not funding instead?

Every rupee poured into trying to retrofit and modernize the Su-57 is a rupee not spent on co-developing a sixth-generation engine with someone like Rolls-Royce. It’s a rupee not invested in CATS Warrior, in swarm autonomy, in mission-aware AI-enabled wingmen. The future isn’t just about stealth platforms — it’s about stealth platforms embedded in autonomous, networked kill webs. That’s where the real edge will lie: in being able to operate a manned-unmanned teaming ecosystem, with scalable tactical autonomy and full-spectrum ISR fusion.

And for that, you don’t need boutique imports like the F-35, where you’ll not only pay a premium for the aircraft, but then have to go begging for the corresponding loyal wingman platform, integration rights, training modules, and software updates. You’ll still be waiting for the Americans to hand you the next API key.

Instead of chasing 5th gen optics or psychological comfort, we should be putting our resources into building the foundational infrastructure for 6th gen warfare — engines, data links, cloud-based battle management systems, AI autonomy cores, and weapons that make the platform almost secondary.
Meanwhile till that happens in the next 20 years, we wait for the enemy to strike us with their stealth squadrons without posing any deterrent offensive threat ourselves.

All that tech is great, but one of our enemies is already operating hundreds of 5th gen fighters and the other is getting a few squadrons in the next couple of years if not earlier.

So we basically place all our bets on hypothetical future capabilities while our enemies strengthen NOW.

You bet Pakistan will take their chances against our AD once they have a few squadrons of J35s operating. And simultaneously, they will also strengthen their air defences, having learned their lessons from sindoor.

And we will have nothing to deter them from doing so as we will lose our own threat perception.

That's not a solution, it's basically suicidal.
 
Meanwhile till that happens in the next 20 years, we wait for the enemy to strike us with their stealth squadrons without posing any deterrent offensive threat ourselves.

All that tech is great, but one of our enemies is already operating hundreds of 5th gen fighters and the other is getting a few squadrons in the next couple of years if not earlier.

So we basically place all our bets on hypothetical future capabilities while our enemies strengthen NOW.

You bet Pakistan will take their chances against our AD once they have a few squadrons of J35s operating. And simultaneously, they will also strengthen their air defences, having learned their lessons from sindoor.

And we will have nothing to deter them from doing so as we will lose our own threat perception.

That's not a solution, it's basically suicidal.
Is BrahMos hypothetical? Is IACCS hypothetical? Is a distributed fire control system — where a low-level radar like Flycatcher can cue an S-400 without its primary radar even lighting up — some sci-fi fantasy?

It’s astonishing how easily people slip into “5th-gen or die” hysteria without understanding how deterrence actually works. You want to talk about near-term capability? Let’s do that.

What Operation Sindoor demonstrated wasn’t just kinetic superiority — it showcased the system of systems that the IAF has quietly built. Pakistan’s radars were destroyed not because we had stealth fighters — we don’t — but because they had to light them up. And the moment they did, they were hit by loitering munitions. That’s what happens when you don’t have distributed ISR, sensor-to-shooter handoff, or C4I fusion.

But here’s the thing: it takes money, time, and indigenous capability development to build that kind of network. These aren’t off-the-shelf systems you can import from some friendly superpower. Nobody is handing you a ready-made C4ISR lattice tailored to your terrain, threats, and doctrine. India invested years into building IACCS, integrating AWACS, networking fire control systems, developing passive and VHF radar nodes, and scripting doctrine around them. That’s not “sexy” like buying a shiny stealth jet, but that’s what creates real deterrence — a kill web, not a photo op.

And even if Pakistan tried to build something similar, it wouldn’t change the fact that there is no operational defense vector against weapons like BrahMos or hypersonic glide vehicles. Zero. None. The HQ-16, LY-80, or whatever else they field cannot — repeat, cannot — reliably intercept these fast, low-flying, terminal-phase maneuvering munitions. This isn’t a failure of Pakistani doctrine; it’s just the brutal math of physics and engineering. Nobody has an answer to this yet — not even China, not even the US. That’s the whole reason HGVs are strategic shock weapons in the first place.
I
India didn’t need stealth to strike deep. It needed coordination — between IACCS, its AWACS fleet, passive and active sensors, EW systems, and standoff weapons. That infrastructure is real. It exists now. The enemy’s boutique J-35 squadrons will be as vulnerable as any other platform if you can see them and cue your weapons accordingly — and we are actively investing in VHF radars, passive detection, and multi-static arrays to do exactly that.

Meanwhile, Pakistan is blowing its limited funds on a high-maintenance, twin-engine boutique platform with questionable stealth, unproven Chinese engines, and zero doctrine for dispersed operations. Instead of learning that their air bases are vulnerable and building survivable distributed lethality, they’re doubling down on hangar queens.

China? Let’s talk China.

They may have 200+ stealth fighters, but they also have at most ~250 aircraft deployable in the Western Theater. Their air bases are few, vulnerable, and concentrated. BrahMos and, increasingly, air-launched ballistic missiles and hypersonic vectors will wreck them in the opening days. You want to bet they’ll fly in reinforcements from the east while Indian fires are slamming their logistics chokepoints like the Xinjiang–Tibet Highway or the Lhasa-Golmud corridor?

They know this too. That’s why they’re building three-engine long-range cruisers and drone swarms — because even they understand that platform alone doesn’t cut it in high-altitude, high-risk environments.

You want near-term deterrence?

It’s not stealth-on-stealth duels that provide it. It’s a combination of:
– BrahMos
– SAAW
– Harop
- Rampage
- Rudram
– IACCS
– Passive radar
– S-400 in networked mode, not vanity mode
– And a doctrine that knows how to use them all together.

So stop with this defeatist “we have nothing” talk. If Pakistan had an S-400, they wouldn’t have been able to use it like we did. They don’t have IACCS. They don’t have distributed fire control. They don’t have depth, redundancy, or resources to build something like this.

We do. And if the enemy decides to test that? We’ll show them again. In HD. With telemetry.
 
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Hehe i pity u..

I provided multiple links on Isreali operation days of repentance nd its use of F35.. but u chose to remain ignorant nd responded with ludicrous claim of Iran having far inferior capability than paxtan... Lol that paxtan who can't even produce a 70cc moped engine on it's own.. to the IRAN which has literacy rate of 89% nd has invested heavily in indigenous ballistic missiles nd ADS.. while paxtan which only has chinese nd NOKO green painted knockoffs nd it hasn't seen any new development in the domestic ballistic missiles nd ADS since ages.

My claim- F35 raided IRAN superior ADS with multiple links

Ur claim- IRAN has "FAR" inferior ADS capabilities than paxtan even on paper without any links

We all know who is coping here..

Oki i will apologise to u if u can prove if u can prove ur ludicrous claim that paxtan has stronger ADS capabilities than Iran.

Citation needed

I asked you, which one of your citation matches picture 2 of your post that i repeatedly posted ? Point it out please.
Because all we can see, is your stealth jets did 4++ generation SEAD from picture 1.
And yes, Irans ADS is far worse than Paksitan's because Iran's ADS system is far worse than Chinese ones.
Duh.
The Pakistani ADS are chinese stuff, which is considered far superior to the Iranian home-grown products.

Now, kindly answer my question instead of being a shill for technology you cannot show any actual war time track record for in its designated role.
 
There’s a lot of anxiety in the air about Pakistan’s potential acquisition of J-35s — as if that alone will flip the balance of airpower in the region. I get it. Stealth fighters feel like a game-changer. They promise survivability, precision, and surprise. But wars aren’t one-dimensional, and neither is deterrence.

Let’s step back.

The core capability stealth aircraft bring isn’t some magical invisibility — it’s probabilistic survivability. They reduce detection range, which gives you more freedom to operate. But it’s not invincibility. Every credible air defense network today is already adapting to this: distributed sensors, passive detection systems, VHF and L-band radars, and increasingly, multi-static radar nets. These don’t always give perfect fire control, but they offer early warning, classification, and cueing — and that’s enough to build a layered counter-stealth response.

India’s IACCS system is designed around exactly this logic. We don’t need to light up an S-400 radar to launch an S-400 missile. We can cue it from another node — a Flycatcher, an EW aircraft, or a radar deep in the rear. That’s distributed fire control. That’s survivability. That’s deterrence.

What Operation Sindoor demonstrated wasn’t just that Pakistan’s air defense could be suppressed. It showed that when you have to switch on your radar to see, and your opponent has sensor-to-shooter loops already running, you get hit. Stealth doesn’t solve that if you’re defending — and J-35s won’t either.

And let’s not forget the cost of building a real air defense network. It’s not just buying a system — it’s integrating it across services, building data links, doctrine, redundancy, mobility, and resilience. India has spent two decades doing this. Pakistan, with its economic constraints, is not even close.

Meanwhile, on the offensive side, India has options. BrahMos isn’t hypothetical. HGV programs are real. Rudram, Rampage, SAAW — these are operational and difficult to defend against even with layered air defense. Nobody in the world today — not China, not the US — has a foolproof defense against hypersonic or terminal-phase maneuvering missiles. And we’re fielding them.

Stealth is one vector. But so is missile saturation. So is electronic warfare. So is kinetic precision. India is building depth across all of them.

Also take a step back and look at the broader strategic picture. We’ve been able to develop weapons like BrahMos and hypersonic glide vehicles despite not having stealth because India is a missile power. Our integrated air defense and IACCS exist because we invested in missile defense. But we never invested in our aircraft development ecosystem. We don’t design our own engines. We’re still building out design and testing infrastructure. That’s the gap we need to close.

Should we have a stealth fighter in the fleet today? Absolutely. But the reason we don’t is not a lack of imports — it’s a lack of indigenous capability. And that’s the real lesson here. Instead of panicking and rushing to import boutique platforms as psychological band-aids, we should be doubling down on building a serious industrial base for air combat systems.

And if, down the line, AMCA fails to materialize or is delayed? Then sure, we’ll still have options. The KF-21 from Korea is maturing. And so is Su-57. There are lot more sovereign and independent sixth generation platforms under development as well.

Heck if you can get a viable platform right now buy a couple of squadrons as a stop gap if you want. The issue is we don’t have one. F-35 has sovereignty concerns and SU-57 is not ready. If any of them are ready and offered in a way that’s acceptable please buy 2 or even 4 squadrons. But understand this we cannot in long term compete using borrowed weapons.

China is already attempting to leapfrog into sixth-generation airpower — long-range three-engine air cruisers, drone swarms, and even ultra-long-range SAMs reportedly targeting ranges of 2,000 km.

You don’t counter that with a handful of imported stealth jets. You counter it by investing in deep capabilities — propulsion, guidance, autonomy, materials science, and long-range strike. We need real aerospace industrial capability.

So yes, keep your head calm. Recognize the threat. But don’t panic. Learn the right lesson. Build systems. Build industry. Build India.
 
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There’s a lot of anxiety in the air about Pakistan’s potential acquisition of J-35s — as if that alone will flip the balance of airpower in the region. I get it. Stealth fighters feel like a game-changer. They promise survivability, precision, and surprise. But wars aren’t one-dimensional, and neither is deterrence.

Let’s step back.

The core capability stealth aircraft bring isn’t some magical invisibility — it’s probabilistic survivability. They reduce detection range, which gives you more freedom to operate. But it’s not invincibility. Every credible air defense network today is already adapting to this: distributed sensors, passive detection systems, VHF and L-band radars, and increasingly, multi-static radar nets. These don’t always give perfect fire control, but they offer early warning, classification, and cueing — and that’s enough to build a layered counter-stealth response.

India’s IACCS system is designed around exactly this logic. We don’t need to light up an S-400 radar to launch an S-400 missile. We can cue it from another node — a Flycatcher, an EW aircraft, or a radar deep in the rear. That’s distributed fire control. That’s survivability. That’s deterrence.

What Operation Sindoor demonstrated wasn’t just that Pakistan’s air defense could be suppressed. It showed that when you have to switch on your radar to see, and your opponent has sensor-to-shooter loops already running, you get hit. Stealth doesn’t solve that if you’re defending — and J-35s won’t either.

And let’s not forget the cost of building a real air defense network. It’s not just buying a system — it’s integrating it across services, building data links, doctrine, redundancy, mobility, and resilience. India has spent two decades doing this. Pakistan, with its economic constraints, is not even close.

Meanwhile, on the offensive side, India has options. BrahMos isn’t hypothetical. HGV programs are real. Rudram, Rampage, SAAW — these are operational and difficult to defend against even with layered air defense. Nobody in the world today — not China, not the US — has a foolproof defense against hypersonic or terminal-phase maneuvering missiles. And we’re fielding them.

Stealth is one vector. But so is missile saturation. So is electronic warfare. So is kinetic precision. India is building depth across all of them.

Also take a step back and look at the broader strategic picture. We’ve been able to develop weapons like BrahMos and hypersonic glide vehicles despite not having stealth because India is a missile power. Our integrated air defense and IACCS exist because we invested in missile defense. But we never invested in our aircraft development ecosystem. We don’t design our own engines. We’re still building out design and testing infrastructure. That’s the gap we need to close.

Should we have a stealth fighter in the fleet today? Absolutely. But the reason we don’t is not a lack of imports — it’s a lack of indigenous capability. And that’s the real lesson here. Instead of panicking and rushing to import boutique platforms as psychological band-aids, we should be doubling down on building a serious industrial base for air combat systems.

And if, down the line, AMCA fails to materialize or is delayed? Then sure, we’ll still have options. The KF-21 from Korea is maturing. And so is Su-57. There are lot more sovereign and independent sixth generation platforms under development as well.

Heck if you can get a viable platform right now buy a couple of squadrons as a stop gap if you want. The issue is we don’t have one. F-35 has sovereignty concerns and SU-57 is not ready. If any of them are ready and offered in a way that’s acceptable please buy 2 or even 4 squadrons. But understand this we cannot in long term compete using borrowed weapons.

China is already attempting to leapfrog into sixth-generation airpower — long-range three-engine air cruisers, drone swarms, and even ultra-long-range SAMs reportedly targeting ranges of 2,000 km.

You don’t counter that with a handful of imported stealth jets. You counter it by investing in deep capabilities — propulsion, guidance, autonomy, materials science, and long-range strike. We need real aerospace industrial capability.

So yes, keep your head calm. Recognize the threat. But don’t panic. Learn the right lesson. Build systems. Build industry. Build India.

Your whole premise is incorrect I dont see any anxiety of any J35 induction if that ever materialise,
Yesterday IAF chief basically told local industry to come up with local technologies.

And AMCA is being approved with 2029 as date for prototype roll out.

Although Trump is pushing for F35 no indication from Indian side if we are even entertaining the prospect.

pakistan even if bring F47 they can not change thr pathetic geography.
Brahmos and next generation precision missiles coming from India will only get deadly and more numerous.

And as per Sindoor policy now in implementation India next time will not only hit terrorist locations but also their backers aka pakistan military.

So next time Rules of Engagement will not be to hit terror camps there will be a proper SEAD/DEAD and pre emotive strikes on whatever high value/high tech resources they posses.

Precision weapons to watch out for

Rudram
Brahmos

If pakis start ballistic missile game

Pralay
Prithvi
Pinaka Guided long range(100+)

And dont forget Navy

Thr r only 3 ports in pakistan all of them will be fcked up

Each of these weapons pakis have no way to stop and if they keep on escalating even if thr is no hits on Indian side the response will be proportional which will completely erase thr capabilities
 
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