AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (10 Viewers)

KF-21 is well underway. Not sure about status of TAI Kaan. These programs were started only recently. DRDO has been showing AMCA posters in expos since at least a decade.

View: https://x.com/ShiroBarks/status/1939923832288014629

KF-21/KF-X is actually quite old project. It is being planned since early 2000s. It original was just an Omnirole aircraft. Even today it isn't really a 5th gen aircraft. It doesn't have many features of one like IWB. Since it was originally intended to be something like ORCA. It's airframe is stealthy though. Koreans have done an impressive job no doubt. It will become a true 5th gen aircraft in later iterations.

I think we should have gone ahead with MCA and should have developed AMCA based on it. MCA was supposed to be non stealth 4.5 gen Twin engine Multirole Medium Combat Aircraft with a slightly stealthy airframe and tail-less design..But as usual DRDO failed to convince MoD and IAF for it. Mostly cost was an issue. They thought it was much easier to just work on AMCA.

See the issue has always been MoD babu don't understand anything about R&D. They always want result to be as per their own will and they have very little appetite for failure. They don't really have any idea about iterative development process. Thus, they always want to see whatever DRDO is working on to work within timeframe they will set, otherwise they won't sanction money for it. Kaveri is a very good example of that mindset. Projects which fails to meet certain expectations or might fail are hardly ever continued. Well this mindset made sense when we were a poor country like 20-30 years ago. But today we have enough capital to mitigate such risks, yet babus in MoD haven't come out of that mentality. Well reforms are happening but very slowly. Let's see where it goes.
 
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A brilliant idea why doesn’t HAL builds a time machine n go back to 80s n start designing AMCA in place of LCA …
Jokes aside, even if DRDO had designed the AMCA in the 1980s or 1990s, it would have remained largely conceptual until at least the early 2010s. The definition and expectations of fifth-generation fighter aircraft have evolved significantly over time, especially in terms of stealth, avionics, and sensor fusion. Any early design would have inevitably required major revisions to meet contemporary standards.

Moreover, things like, AESA radars, and low-observable materials, etc. were simply not mature enough back then. Only a few countries had it like USA. F-22 is hardly a 5th gen in comparison to F-35 if we go into those subsystems.
 
Jokes aside, even if DRDO had designed the AMCA in the 1980s or 1990s, it would have remained largely conceptual until at least the early 2010s. The definition and expectations of fifth-generation fighter aircraft have evolved significantly over time, especially in terms of stealth, avionics, and sensor fusion. Any early design would have inevitably required major revisions to meet contemporary standards.

Moreover, things like, AESA radars, and low-observable materials, etc. were simply not mature enough back then. Only a few countries had it like USA. F-22 is hardly a 5th gen in comparison to F-35 if we go into those subsystems.

DRDO, ISRO, HAL all gone to dogs by 0 or even negative scoring engineers …

India needs to look for private sector in strategic field as this practice will never end otherwise one way these incompetent PSUs will make India lose
 
DRDO, ISRO, HAL all gone to dogs by 0 or even negative scoring engineers …

India needs to look for private sector in strategic field as this practice will never end otherwise one way these incompetent PSUs will make India lose
I still don't understand why you keep thinking they hire 0 or negative scoring engineers in some absurd numbers. It isn't true. Such folks don't get recruited in large number. And I haven't seen any evidence of such 0 mark guys ever getting there. Kindly please stop exaggerating reservation issue, it's impact is very little. It's the organisational structure that is the problem. Recruitment process has other problems, it is typical babu type exam passing competition. They don't often do campus recruitment.

The issue with DRDO, HAL and ISRO is way more complex than some people reduce it to. And guess what it's not reservation that is the main problem. It's an issue but hardly a major issue.
 
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Jokes aside, even if DRDO had designed the AMCA in the 1980s or 1990s, it would have remained largely conceptual until at least the early 2010s. The definition and expectations of fifth-generation fighter aircraft have evolved significantly over time, especially in terms of stealth, avionics, and sensor fusion. Any early design would have inevitably required major revisions to meet contemporary standards.

Moreover, things like, AESA radars, and low-observable materials, etc. were simply not mature enough back then. Only a few countries had it like USA. F-22 is hardly a 5th gen in comparison to F-35 if we go into those subsystems.

The definition of 5gen has not changed, just the H/w & S/w get better with time. It happens in every gen in form of MLUs till a limit when a new airframe is required called as next gen.
Otherwise some people like calling 6gen as matured 5gen or 5.5gen.

A newer jet will definitely benefit from continious R&D.
But just bcoz F-22 doesn't have HMDS, 1 wide screen, EOTS doesn't mean it is "hardly 5gen from F-35 PoV".
It's airframe was designed to supercruise at Mach 1.8
Its RCS is still lowest.
F119 dry SFC is lowest, followed by F110.
Some F-22 sub-systems are 'above top secret' with export ban. Only professionals & serious enthusiasts who study the tech things can guess those secrets.
While F-35 was export JSF right from beginning hence had some intentional flaws/modifications to prevent loss of tech edge.
So F-22 still remains a benchmark for many aspects.
 
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The definition of 5gen has not changed, just the H/w & S/w get better with time. It happens in every gen in form of MLUs till a limit when a new airrame is required called as next gen.
Otherwise some people like calling 6gen as matured 5gen or 5.5gen.

A newer jet will definitely benefit from continious R&D.
But just bcoz F-22 doesn't have HMDS, 1 wide screen, EOTS doesn't mean it is "hardly 5gen from F-35 PoV".
It's airframe was designed to supercruise at Mach 1.8
Its RCS is still lowest.
F119 dry SFC is lowest, followed by F110.
Some F-22 sub-systems are 'above top secret' with export ban. Only professionals & serious enthusiasts who study the tech things can guess those secrets.
While F-35 was export JSF right from beginning hence had some intentional flaws/modifications to prevent loss of tech edge.
So F-22 still remains a benchmark for many aspects.
Thanks for correcting me. But my point was the design would have gone through a lot of changes because of solid 20-30 years of advancement in technology. A jet designed by DRDO some 30 years ago would have a lot of inspiration from its contemporary. Which could have gone eitherway with passage of time. Lmao IAF would have asked for a more modern design even if we had designed AMCA in 90s.
 
I still don't understand why you keep thinking they hire 0 or negative scoring engineers in some absurd numbers. It isn't true. Such folks don't get recruited in large number. And I haven't seen any evidence of such 0 mark guys ever getting there. Kindly please stop exaggerating reservation issue, it's impact is very little. It's the organisational structure that is the problem. Recruitment process has other problems, it is typical babu type exam passing competition. They don't often do campus recruitment.

The issue with DRDO, HAL and ISRO is way more complex than some people reduce it to. And guess what it's not reservation that is the main problem. It's an issue but hardly a major issue.

Actually its quite common here is the news from today not from DRDO but worst MBBS 🤣🤣🤣


View: https://x.com/jaipurdialogues/status/1940283674723041442?s=46
 
It happens in every gen in form of MLUs till a limit when a new airrame is required called as next gen.
Otherwise some people like calling 6gen as matured 5gen or 5.5gen.
I'm pretty sure the kind of capabilities amca is envisioned you cannot put them all on an f22.
Many capabilities of f35 and future envisioned ones cannot be put into f22's airframe either.

So are f35 and amca, next gen compared to f22?

F35, j20 evem su57 has RAS material with stealth baked into the skin of the aircraft, f22 does not, this means lot more fragile stealth coating of f22 & lot more maintenance and down hours.
You cannot add this capability in f22's airframe either, need a new airframe for that.
 
What has MBBS admission has anything to do with DRDO or ISRO? It's a composition fallacy. Just because this happens in one part of the system doesn't mean it is happening in another entirely different part.
Because this low merit 70 percent reservation is affecting merit recruitment.They even lowered the age limit for scientist posts for general candidate from 35 to 28 but removed age limit for obc,sc,st,pwd etc.

This butchering of merit has now forced iits to offer direct seats to international olympiad medallist as current reservation limit has gone past 60 percent after ews quota.Now ews,sc,st obc ncl caste certificates,pwd certificates are being issued by politicians and bureaucrats to their low merit near and dear ones to enter into ivy leagues of india and get govt jobs thus decreasing merit of the nation.
 
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Because this low merit 70 percent reservation is affecting merit recruitment.They even loved the age limit for scientist posts for general candidate from 35 to 28 but removed age limit for obc,sc,st,pwd,ews etc.

This butchering of merit has now forced iits to offer direct seats to international olympiad medallist as current reservation limit has gone past 60 percent after ews quota.

Our nation should not dream of Kaveri Jet Engine or AMCA or Reusable Rockets or world class medical services if merit is killed …

I fully support underprivileged classes but when it comes to national security and MBBS type we should focus on merit rest can have 200% reservation I dont give a fck
 
Our nation should not dream of Kaveri Jet Engine or AMCA or Reusable Rockets or world class medical services if merit is killed …

I fully support underprivileged classes but when it comes to national security and MBBS type we should focus on merit rest can have 200% reservation I dont give a fck
Mbbs is the worst affected as recently after reservation is applied for pg medical courses top merit folks can't get into neurology,cardiology and essential branches in top institutes as most are reserved for low merit .Same with scientists a,b,c,d,e,f posts across drdo and isro.

Situation is very dire many general merit folks in top institutions are being harrased with sc st act if they expose the corruption,mishandling done by higher ups or bureaucrats hence many are seeking foreign or private employment.
 
KF-21 is well underway. Not sure about status of TAI Kaan. These programs were started only recently. DRDO has been showing AMCA posters in expos since at least a decade.

View: https://x.com/ShiroBarks/status/1939923832288014629


Koreans are serious about this.
Turkans are serious about this

Neither Indian MoD( default state ) nor IAF is serious about AMCA.
PMO is totally clueless and doesn't seem to care

DRDO is just a research organization waiting on funding release and permissions from their IAS masters( political master also if the defence minister is interested in doing his job ).

I mentioned IAF because the IN had to play "pass the file" with MoD since the 80s over what would become INS Vikrant, they got the file thrown back at them twice because "we iz poor, carrier too expensive" they also redesigned it to be 20tons and capable of carrying harriers, govt was still "poor" i guess, but only in 1999 they got project sanction.

So the push either has to come from IAF or PMO.
Babooze will Baboon otherwise
 
Thanks for correcting me. But my point was the design would have gone through a lot of changes because of solid 20-30 years of advancement in technology. A jet designed by DRDO some 30 years ago would have a lot of inspiration from its contemporary. Which could have gone eitherway with passage of time. Lmao IAF would have asked for a more modern design even if we had designed AMCA in 90s.
IMO the following mistakes were made -
> Our R&D was stalled after Marut & shifted to import culture.

> R&D on airframe like that of LCA but no engine R&D.

> LCA with only 1 engine, as if DoD wanted to make foolish record of lightest, cheapest fighter jet for 7th largest country by land.

> Soviets helped to make out steel plants & defence architecture but no jet R&D with them until PAKFA, AFAIK.

> IAF or any AF is just an operator providing pilots who don't design jets. Every pilot is not full fledged aeronautical engineer, some are who become test pilots & involved in R&D. Manufacturing & Maintenance ground crew know a jet more than pilot. So the requirement should come from Engineering as per global tech advancement, not pilots although who still can give R&D inputs like ergonomics.

> So there is fundamental problem in initiating projects only when IAF/IN ASKS & they ask either after 1gen globally has passed or after Pakistan gets something new. So virtually Pakistan indirectly puppets our R&D. :doh::facepalm2::facepalm4::boink::boxing::LOL::ROFLMAO:

> MBA fever since 2000s has partially spoilled out industry. We all have some toppers from our school, college who were tech champs on paper, yet they shifted to pure management from beginning, some even changed industry to non-tech. That's a huge loss of talent potential. They just wanna earn big bucks, ask questions, give orders. This results in bad tech management w/o adequate tech experience. The entire industry stalls. Thats why our tycoons are typical 'baniyas' for quick bucks, not R&D minded.

> The BABU culture itself means many of us Indians in school/college & even in office have tendencies of being lazy, procrastinating, not doing homework, over-optimistic, impulsive, jealous, taunting, discouraging, challenging, misleading, etc rather than encouraging, appreciating, contributing, supporting. In forums & social media also it can be seen daily.... "lo bhai aa gaya arm chair expert, ye DoD se zyada janta hai, ab ye bataega, banaega aur bachaega humko":fencing::argue:
There could be many DoD engineers who have been intelligent, proactive, visionary but could not do well either due to lack of funding, facilities or encouragement & support. The only face of DoD we see are the top program managers at Aero-India.

> Most defence journalists don't ask precise questions as per global tech advancements & end up just bluntly reporting & appeasing the delayed products or tech.

> As politicians, the 3 forces, DoD units blame each other, so does their friends, family, relatives, associates.

There're more things but i'll take a pause here.
 
I'm pretty sure the kind of capabilities amca is envisioned you cannot put them all on an f22.
Many capabilities of f35 and future envisioned ones cannot be put into f22's airframe either.
Benchmark means point of reference.
Making generic statements is easy. What precise capability would you like to quote? Based on that i can speculate if it can be MLUed to existing 5gen jets or not.

So are f35 and amca, next gen compared to f22?
The F-22 is going under 11+ Bn USD MLU but still many things cannt be put in there that's why NGAD is needed.🤷‍♂️ It'll become 5.5gen & the queston is - will AMCA match that? The program manager at Aero-India said that AMCA will have everything which F-35 has, time'll tell soon.

F35, j20 evem su57 has RAS material with stealth baked into the skin of the aircraft, f22 does not, this means lot more fragile stealth coating of f22 & lot more maintenance and down hours.
You cannot add this capability in f22's airframe either, need a new airframe for that.
Ofcourse as i said the newer jet will have benefits from continious R&D.
But still they can't match F-22's lowest RCS yet.

The F-22 has been spotted with multiple types of coatings - mirror like, solar panel like, etc. So it would be premature to say if its skin is being changed as part of 11 Bn USD MLU or not.

May be these are ceramic RF panels to defend against DEW.

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DRDO, ISRO, HAL all gone to dogs by 0 or even negative scoring engineers …

India needs to look for private sector in strategic field as this practice will never end otherwise one way these incompetent PSUs will make India lose
lol are we going again?
Your private sector isn't doing R&D loll
Most want screwdrivergiri
All this 3 years delay was itself due forcing private sector involvement
 
But still they can't match F-22's lowest RCS yet.
I think we we already had a discussion about this "lowest rcs" in past.

F35's getting that shiny coating too, IMO it's to reduce IR signature, as modern days IRST/FLIR are beginning to reach bvr level ranges in optimal conditions even against modern composite jets like f35 in subsonic cruise.
 

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