AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (12 Viewers)

[redpanda]

Well thats what is gonna happens

Whether we like it or not the incompetent lazy unkils in HAL are the only one who can take risk because they aren't losing their job after failure. Basically they have unlimited safety cushion but that also makes them what they are. Incompetent lazy unkills.

I think what the government should do is give the partner companies like TASL and L&T contract for trainer aircraft necessary for AMCA. That way they will get a chance to use the expertise they have gained or will gain. There is less risk involved in that front. All MoD has to convince is HAL to give their trainer design to some private company. And MoD babus can easily do that.

Just give this to them.

HAL HLFT-42 - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Savageking456]

think what the government should do is give the partner companies like TASL and L&T contract for trainer aircraft necessary for AMCA. That way they will get a chance to use the expertise they have gained or will gain.

Good point you made but first of all we need to make decision making faster
It takes gazillion years to make a decision then materialize it

 

[Corvus Splendens]

Benchmark means point of reference.
Making generic statements is easy. What precise capability would you like to quote? Based on that i can speculate if it can be MLUed to existing 5gen jets or not.


The F-22 is going under 11+ Bn USD MLU but still many things cannt be put in there that's why NGAD is needed. It'll become 5.5gen & the queston is - will AMCA match that? The program manager at Aero-India said that AMCA will have everything which F-35 has, time'll tell soon.


Ofcourse as i said the newer jet will have benefits from continious R&D.
But still they can't match F-22's lowest RCS yet.

The F-22 has been spotted with multiple types of coatings - mirror like, solar panel like, etc. So it would be premature to say if its skin is being changed as part of 11 Bn USD MLU or not.

May be these are ceramic RF panels to defend against DEW.

View attachment 41913
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It's a new type of RAM/IR-proof coating allegedly.

 

[shade2]

Whether we like it or not the incompetent lazy unkils in HAL are the only one who can take risk because they aren't losing their job after failure. Basically they have unlimited safety cushion but that also makes them what they are. Incompetent lazy unkills.

I think what the government should do is give the partner companies like TASL and L&T contract for trainer aircraft necessary for AMCA. That way they will get a chance to use the expertise they have gained or will gain. There is less risk involved in that front. All MoD has to convince is HAL to give their trainer design to some private company. And MoD babus can easily do that.

Just give this to them.

HAL HLFT-42 - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Private company won't bite because they are not sarkari PSU zombies like HAL which are unkillable.

If someone takes part in AMCA program, after buying all the expensive equipment, hiring expensive specialist employees, setting up factory and all.

Imagine if it is subjected to the whims of Import Marshalls, MoD baboons and sundry others.

All this money goes down the gutter and the reputation of the company is stained.

 

[DancingPeacock]

Private company won't bite because they are not sarkari PSU zombies like HAL which are unkillable.

If someone takes part in AMCA program, after buying all the expensive equipment, hiring expensive specialist employees, setting up factory and all.

Imagine if it is subjected to the whims of Import Marshalls, MoD baboons and sundry others.

All this money goes down the gutter and the reputation of the company is stained.

All this retarded drama is because Jokers don't want fund end-to-end R&D like every other country possible. You give out RFP and let them quote and select two and fund whatever they asked. Its quite simple and doesn't need giga braining.

 

[ArjunMK1A]

All this retarded drama is because Jokers don't want fund end-to-end R&D like every other country possible. You give out RFP and let them quote and select two and fund whatever they asked. Its quite simple and doesn't need giga braining.

US Style projects were not followed here. IAF is not a stakeholder for long time. IA was stakeholder in few projects like TC20 Gun (Under Late Bipin Rawat Sir) and ASMI (Col. Bansod and ARDE Collab), both of these projects have short time period and also we got certain upgrades faster. Eg. ASMI with new variants.


Some good example from US.
Eg. YF-120 is the Variable Compression Engine which was supposed to be powering the YF-23 Prototype. The aircraft was not selected and F22 came into picture. But USAF officially funded this project for long time upto 2006. By 2006 YF-120 closed followed by ADVENT Engine, which is again funded by USAF. Now the new NGAD will be going with ADVENT Engine. USAF was stakeholder in lot of their projects.

USN also stakeholder in lot of projects where some of them were not even inducted in LSP. But still this is something they are figuring new techs.

In India IN is the only branch who are stakeholders in lot of their products. All Navy ships manufactured by us in past 30 years have IN as stakeholder. Naval Tejas has an backing of IN for validating the technology for Carrier based Fighters. They are the stakeholders for TEDBF which may not see the light of the day. They are the stakeholders for the Abhimanyu CCA.

IAF is not in pre 2015 where there is nothing happening in Indian Aerospace sector. Post 2015 lot of things changed in Aerospace sector. We have MSMEs working for major Aerospace giants like Airbus, Boeing, CFM, Safran etc.

But IAF bros still not ready to invest in what they want. Only you invest in what you want, they you will force HAL Babus and put IAF babus who were work similar to Shipyards managed by Ex-Naval Persons.

 

[Savageking456]

View: https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1940438637084291146?t=nj3kZ5wRMbQaRNDpK5f4Qg&s=19

 

[redpanda]

Private company won't bite because they are not sarkari PSU zombies like HAL which are unkillable.

If someone takes part in AMCA program, after buying all the expensive equipment, hiring expensive specialist employees, setting up factory and all.

Imagine if it is subjected to the whims of Import Marshalls, MoD baboons and sundry others.

All this money goes down the gutter and the reputation of the company is stained.

Exactly this is why they don't wanna take the risk. We all know how our baboons behave. They could always haggle the company behind the scene for cuts too. That's why they wanna form a consortium because it would be able to have better leverage. And will mitigate the risk by a lot. But that also leads to "Pehle Aap, Pehle Aap" drama. I wonder which company will ask other companies to form a consortium. If it forms. Because government will force sometime to happen this year very likely, they can't just indefinitely delay AMCA lmao. They are under a lot of pressure.

 

[akk]

I agree with the GE404 local line part, but the GE414 is not a dropfit solution for GE404, it will need significant change in internal plumbing and redesign of the intakes, as it produces more thrust and has a greater airflow requirement.

I am not an expert but on the basis of what I have read.......
414 is derived from 404 with same size and weight.
Yes, it is more powerful, but I assume it's power can be "limited" to what the inlets and airframe can support
Can it not be adapted to be used in place of 404 using a software switch?
Maybe not 98kn, but mk1a "may" support 90kn or anything more than 84kn of 404?
Maybe it can improve performance of mk1a slightly, while working within it's design limitations?
It would still be easier to manage 1 engine for different aircraft.

 

[liberalredditor]

a small revision module for all defence nerds

credits to @FalconSlayers


View: https://flyingdaggers45.medium.com/indias-next-generation-fighter-aircraft-the-amca-84d7e51bf841

 

[shade2]

US Style projects were not followed here. IAF is not a stakeholder for long time.

In India IN is the only branch who are stakeholders in lot of their products. All Navy ships manufactured by us in past 30 years have IN as stakeholder. Naval Tejas has an backing of IN for validating the technology for Carrier based Fighters. They are the stakeholders for TEDBF which may not see the light of the day. They are the stakeholders for the Abhimanyu CCA.

IAF is not in pre 2015 where there is nothing happening in Indian Aerospace sector. Post 2015 lot of things changed in Aerospace sector. We have MSMEs working for major Aerospace giants like Airbus, Boeing, CFM, Safran etc.

But IAF bros still not ready to invest in what they want. Only you invest in what you want, they you will force HAL Babus and put IAF babus who were work similar to Shipyards managed by Ex-Naval Persons.

They are not a stakeholder because they are not interested in any domestically developed fighter jets.

I think Admirals got into the domestic shipbuilding project because

>They can't get the quantity of ships they want via imports because price
>They are the step-child of the MoD and have the least budgetary priority
> Foreign warship merchants will charge arm and leg for the sort of khichdi warships IN likes with equipment from 5 places, people cry about Frencies bleeding us for ISE in Rafale but it's the same for ships also.
>There are also some things that cannot be customized in a ship, unless it's there from a design level, so design control is necessary

Now all the four also apply to the IAF, the days are gone when Govt will import 800 Mig21 from the Soviet's langar.

They can either become a stakeholder in domestic fighter jet and munitions development or they can continue getting only the low double digits of imported wunderwaffe every decade because even under Chorgressi dalal govts there is only so much you can increase the defence budget by.

 

[FalconSlayers]

View: https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1940753748865044530

 

[Savageking456]

View: https://x.com/sneheshphilip/status/1940768330648006874?t=ARa80fNeGnvYROQEXMJ7YQ&s=19
"This means that private companies, who don’t have an experience in manufacturing a full fighter, cannot enter into a joint venture with a foreign Original Equipment Manufacturer (OEM). Even now Indian companies manufacturing parts and components are doing so in collaboration with foreign OEMs,” one of the sources said.
Lol what a cope
I am sure this is TATA they wanted to manufacture amca with foreign OEM

 

[shade2]

View: https://x.com/sneheshphilip/status/1940768330648006874?t=ARa80fNeGnvYROQEXMJ7YQ&s=19
"This means that private companies, who don’t have an experience in manufacturing a full fighter, cannot enter into a joint venture with a foreign Original Equipment Manufacturer (OEM). Even now Indian companies manufacturing parts and components are doing so in collaboration with foreign OEMs,” one of the sources said.
Lol what a cope
I am sure this is TATA they wanted to manufacture amca with foreign OEM

Early stage dalali for F-35 local assembly by Tata.

If you are serious about getting the AMCA contract you can hire some aerospace firm as a consultant to help you setup the plant for fighter jet manufacturing.


OTOH this is another scheme by the Govt to import Rafale, to setup a "private sector fighter jet manufacturer"
With the Fuselage announcement TASL is also likely to get the final assembly contract if it is ordered

 

[Spitfire IX]

Early stage dalali for F-35 local assembly by Tata.

If you are serious about getting the AMCA contract you can hire some aerospace firm as a consultant to help you setup the plant for fighter jet manufacturing.


OTOH this is another scheme by the Govt to import Rafale, to setup a "private sector fighter jet manufacturer"
With the Fuselage announcement TASL is also likely to get the final assembly contract if it is ordered

Could apply skills learnt from Rafale final assembly to AMCA final assembly?

 

[shade2]

Could go from Rafale final assembly to AMCA final assembly?

Yes that is the scheme.
Whoever won the MRFA contract would setup a FAL + Air-Frame manufacturing plant to become a "private sector fighter jet maker"

Currently it's just HAL and no corporate will invest in producing a domestic fighter otherwise, knowing how users and bureaucrats are, it's a huge risk.

 

[A Chauhan]

Private company won't bite because they are not sarkari PSU zombies like HAL which are unkillable.

If someone takes part in AMCA program, after buying all the expensive equipment, hiring expensive specialist employees, setting up factory and all.

Imagine if it is subjected to the whims of Import Marshalls, MoD baboons and sundry others.

All this money goes down the gutter and the reputation of the company is stained.

Private companies can be made accountable, and on their mistakes they can be punished, while HAL's delays are not questioned that seriously since it's a govt company.

 

[obiwankenobi]

I don't understand the fuss if a foreign OEM through their Indian entity eg Boeing India or Dassault India, became part of a bidding consortium.

It doesn't mean LRUs get outsourced or F35s start getting manufactured - ADA tightly controls the product design. This is for development and manufacturing of design from ADA. Primary LRUs are led by ADA anyway. The only LRUs getting imported are those that even ADA wants imported i.e. ejection seats etc.

In fact, Boeing or Dassault coming in as a partner of the consortium is exactly what you need to make an alternative ecosystem outside of HAL. If they sent even 10-20 of their experienced engineers you can bring in some industry best practices in supply chain management, development and manufacturing - maybe things HAL has missed.

Add to the fact, they haven't even allowed the bidding consortium to get talent from abroad - which is the whole point of letting in the private sector. If Indians with security clearance can work and contribute to Boeing and Airbus, whats the problem with the Indian led consortium getting key people from abroad as long as MoD or MoHA vets them?

Honestly a lot of people have no idea how industries work - including this Alpha Defence person always having a go at private companies and PSUs can do no wrong.

 

[shade2]

Private companies can be made accountable, and on their mistakes they can be punished, while HAL's delays are not questioned that seriously since it's a govt company.

With projects like AMCA, with a fickle customer on the other end, such "accountability" and "punishments" can be fatal for the private company involved, or they will lose a lot of money.

This also includes something like Tata or any of the big name conglomerates that you can think about.

From their PoV it's just not worth it.

 

[redpanda]

With projects like AMCA, with a fickle customer on the other end, such "accountability" and "punishments" can be fatal for the private company involved, or they will lose a lot of money.

This also includes something like Tata or any of the big name conglomerates that you can think about.

From their PoV it's just not worth it.

Issue is if they keep remaining in this "low risk mindset" they will eventually miss the bus. Some foreign company will just open their own branch here eventually and the government will give them contract. Meanwhile our guys will remain glorified supply chain vendor for them. Government will bail them out if they fumble up most likely.