AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft

[shade2]

Again these things are not that big of a deal for Boeing or Raytheon who have high cash flows for R&D, they can cycle a completely redesigned prototype in less than an year. But unfortunately we don't enjoy that luxury.

Bottleneck here is just paisa or is it also having the number of engineer dudes to do the CAD design and software simulations?

 

[Ayan Barat]

Bottleneck here is just paisa or is it also having the number of engineer dudes to do the CAD design and software simulations?

Spoiler: This gets bit long...

• The bottleneck here is students and universities who don't pursue anything other than CS/IT. And the handful of those that go for things like mech/aero/material gets so poorly valued here that most of them move abroad to pursue PhD or for better jobs. The biggest superpower of American MIC is not their multi-billion companies but rather institutions like MIT and CalTech that fills them.
• The bottleneck here is most of our defence companies who are in the game not because they're passionate about pioneering this field but rather because somehow they got to know that defence and aerospace has an insane margin and they want DhandhoMaxxing. The handful of people who were truly visionary in terms of genuine R&D like Baba Kalyani in artillery never got the encouragement they deserved so they also adopted kind of a nonchalant attitude.
• The bottleneck here is our government owned research/manufacturing facilities who should have gotten unlimited funds to do whatever they wanted like DARPA instead of remaining in a constant fear of strict scrutiny or even budget cuts. And even in most of these facilities, people have the usual SBI counter type lax attitude of making benches instead of a sense of pride and responsibility that they're making supersonic planes. So ultimately this cause and effect cycle keeps on running.
• The bottleneck here is military who for 90% of the times gets entangled in playing the game of catch-up instead of striving for overmatch. An adversary tests something or a conflict happens, we're caught with our pants down, we scramble to do emergency procurement of the most obnoxiously expensive thing and we catch-up. I don't think we've ever even thought of achieving an overmatch that forces our adversary for something like an emergency procurement.
• The bottleneck here is government who has to balance between socialist schemes and defence spendings. End of the day it's socialist schemes that gets priority because this is what ensures your political party will come in power in the next election.

...so it's just easier for me to say the biggest bottleneck here is funds instead of going into a full-on rant

 

[pipebomb]

Obviously things like cockpit and wings won't be unchanged but everything else would need a "recalibration". As engine separation increases, the chances of a plane going into a spin incase of a single engine failure also increases so now you'll need to redesign the rudders to compensate for this. Drag characteristics would change because of all the added bulk. You'll need to completely redesigned the air intake manifolds. Every single bulkhead in the fuselage would need to be redesigned from the ground up

I don't see any technological bottleneck for AMCA redesign just CAD and windtunnel man hours.

On the contrary ADA now has more experience with stealth shaping and vehicle control that they could attempt more exotic design with 'ruddervators' like yf23, su75, fcas etc

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

Move the engines appart like yf23, su57, mig29 and VOILA! you have the space to fit a longer IWB

Interesting, but then it will become AHCA. Coincidentally our intentions match to include bigger weapons internally in fighter jet. I have already explained this idea in AHCA thread using F-22, Su-57 & some CAD of foreign artists. Go have a look.

B

Thread 'AHCA (Advanced Heavy Combat Aircraft) concept, 5/5.5/6gen? Su-30MKI replacement? TEDBF 2.0?'

Aug 15, 2024

CAUTION/DISCLAIMER:
- This thread is inspired by global tech evolution, R&D & big jets like Su-3X including Naval variant Su-33.
- On casual forum, there is no need to wait for official govt. or DoD statements.
- Neither global tech evolution waits for lagging countries, nor Discussions for every component to mature & be available.

>Some day upgraded Super-Su-30MKI will need replacement by similar size & weight jet due to technological advancement, requirement of 5th-6th gen. Even after Super-Sukhoi upgrade which is analogous to Su-35-S, the RCS & IRS will be quite high.
>The radars...

• Bhartiya Sainik
• Replies: 25
• Forum: Indian Air & Space Forces

• 

 

[Corvus Splendens]

But don't know why I've this weird feeling that we might be going for two medium sized (built around 2000lbs class PGMs) bomb bays on each side. Somthing similar to Boeing's X-45 line-up.

Ghatak's design is slightly smaller than a Grumman X-47B. We're short on thrust from the Dry Kaveri and the X-47's larger non afterburning F100 is only 300kg heavier with a better T/W ratio. If Ghatak manages 1.8 tons of payload, it's a big win.

 

[NerVik]

Ghatak's design is slightly smaller than a Grumman X-47B. We're short on thrust from the Dry Kaveri and the X-47's larger non afterburning F100 is only 300kg heavier with a better T/W ratio. If Ghatak manages 1.8 tons of payload, it's a big win.

At this rate if they even make the full scale prototype I will take it as a win.

 

[Ayan Barat]

But don't know why I've this weird feeling that we might be going for two medium sized (built around 2000lbs class PGMs) bomb bays on each side. Somthing similar to Boeing's X-45 line-

View: https://x.com/Ray70409890/status/1873645486055526766?s=19
If I may quote Mirza Ghalib for you @Corvus Splendens
हम हैं मुश्ताक़ और वो बे-ज़ार;
या इलाही ये माजरा क्या है।
हम को उन से वफ़ा की है उम्मीद;
जो नहीं जानते वफ़ा क्या है ।

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

Depending on how deep the Ghatak's bay turns out to be, we may just get a stealth ARM carrier. Quite a reasonable ask since it's unmanned and almost bigger than a Tejas Mk1.

What has Ghatak's IWB to do with AMCA's IWB?

 

[AGNI 6 ICBM]

Post in thread 'IAF's Future Bomber'

Dec 3, 2024

Is GHATAK enough for future antiship roles ?
Answer is both YES & NO

Above pic shows GHATAK is capable of carrying only 2 antiship missiles in one sortie which is less....


Ghatak is tiny and has limitations bcoz of its weapons bay dimensions and MTOW

So it might not carry BRAHMOS ER & VISHNU HCM ,Which is a big setback.

Weapons which it can carry are

it address today's requirements in both ground attack and antiship role...we might need a new bomber to carry 6-8 ER & VISHNU 🕉 HCM

• AGNI 6 ICBM

• 

Hope this info about ghatak helps

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

Post in thread 'IAF's Future Bomber'

Dec 3, 2024

Is GHATAK enough for future antiship roles ?
Answer is both YES & NO

Above pic shows GHATAK is capable of carrying only 2 antiship missiles in one sortie which is less....


Ghatak is tiny and has limitations bcoz of its weapons bay dimensions and MTOW

So it might not carry BRAHMOS ER & VISHNU HCM ,Which is a big setback.

Weapons which it can carry are

it address today's requirements in both ground attack and antiship role...we might need a new bomber to carry 6-8 ER & VISHNU 🕉 HCM

• AGNI 6 ICBM

• 

Hope this info about ghatak helps

But what has this to do with AMCA?

 

[Ayan Barat]

Post in thread 'IAF's Future Bomber'

Dec 3, 2024

Is GHATAK enough for future antiship roles ?
Answer is both YES & NO

Above pic shows GHATAK is capable of carrying only 2 antiship missiles in one sortie which is less....


Ghatak is tiny and has limitations bcoz of its weapons bay dimensions and MTOW

So it might not carry BRAHMOS ER & VISHNU HCM ,Which is a big setback.

Weapons which it can carry are

it address today's requirements in both ground attack and antiship role...we might need a new bomber to carry 6-8 ER & VISHNU 🕉 HCM

• AGNI 6 ICBM

• 

Hope this info about ghatak helps

Are you saying the per bay payload is 1.5t!? I think it's combined payload is 1.5t.
If each bay would be one and a half then your total payload would be 3t...that's bit off for these kind of UCAVs.
X-47B is a 20t MTOW, 65kN UCAV and still you only get 2t of payload. And it's a big UCAV.

No way you're going to fit Nirbhay and Rudram-III in that thing.


I guess GBU-10 type munitions should be the absolute maximum limit.

Pretty much this same scheme is followed in AMCA too. With only difference being you get two additional AAM capability (total additional payload of roughly 500kg) over the bomb capacity of Ghatak.

 

[AGNI 6 ICBM]

Are you saying the per bay payload is 1.5t!? I think it's combined payload is 1.5t.
If each bay would be one and a half then your total payload would be 3t...that's bit off for these kind of UCAVs.
X-47B is a 20t MTOW, 65kN UCAV and still you only get 2t of payload. And it's a big UCAV.
View attachment 20235
No way you're going to fit Nirbhay and Rudram-III in that thing.
View attachment 20236
View attachment 20237
I guess GBU-10 type munitions should be the absolute maximum limit.

Pretty much this same scheme is followed in AMCA too. With only difference being you get two additional AAM capability (total additional payload of roughly 500kg) over the bomb capacity of Ghatak.

X47B wing design and ghatak wing design are different....

Boeing phantom ray's design comes closer to DRDO ghatak's wing design....

The developers say boeing phantom can carry ~2.1 Ton payload...with 48 kn dry f404 ....built in 2010's
IMO Ghatak might carry ~2.1+ Ton with 52+ Kn Ton dry kaveri in ~2026

Ghatak is bigger than phantom in dimensions but lighter than MTOW...Indicates higher payload/range

Big IWB points towards ability/necessity to carry big payloads

 

[Corvus Splendens]

The developers say boeing phantom can carry ~2.1 Ton payload...with 48 kn dry f404

Oh Boeing. X-47B carries that payload with while needing nearly 20kn more dry thrust.

 

[AMCA MK1]

Oh Boeing. X-47B carries that payload with while needing nearly 20kn more dry thrust.

It's carrier based so obviously it will need more thrust while ghatak is not. I doubt ghatak will have 52kn as flying wings need T/W of only 0.35
I have heard quite alot ghatak will have 46kn thrust even that would be enough.

 

[Corvus Splendens]

It's carrier based so obviously it will need more thrust

Yanks use catapults.

 

[AMCA MK1]

Yanks use catapults.

That doesn't disregard the reason I quoted.

I can also say carrier based f35s Have larger wings for a reason despite having catapults

 

[pipebomb]

Interesting, but then it will become AHCA. Coincidentally our intentions match to include bigger weapons internally in fighter jet. I have already explained this idea in AHCA thread using F-22, Su-57 & some CAD of foreign artists. Go have a look.

B

Thread 'AHCA (Advanced Heavy Combat Aircraft) concept, 5/5.5/6gen? Su-30MKI replacement? TEDBF 2.0?'

Aug 15, 2024

CAUTION/DISCLAIMER:
- This thread is inspired by global tech evolution, R&D & big jets like Su-3X including Naval variant Su-33.
- On casual forum, there is no need to wait for official govt. or DoD statements.
- Neither global tech evolution waits for lagging countries, nor Discussions for every component to mature & be available.

>Some day upgraded Super-Su-30MKI will need replacement by similar size & weight jet due to technological advancement, requirement of 5th-6th gen. Even after Super-Sukhoi upgrade which is analogous to Su-35-S, the RCS & IRS will be quite high.
>The radars...

• Bhartiya Sainik
• Replies: 25
• Forum: Indian Air & Space Forces

• 

You think redesigning AMCA is not practical because of extra few hundred crores

But IAF operating a 2nd 5th gen fighter side by side to AMCA with totally new engines other than the 110kn ones we are planning on building, is perfectly tenable ?

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

You think redesigning AMCA is not practical because of extra few hundred crores

But IAF operating a 2nd 5th gen fighter side by side to AMCA with totally new engines other than the 110kn ones we are planning on building, is perfectly tenable ?

You're getting me wrong on AMCA bcoz you're new joinee here but i've already said before many times that AMCA needs to be redesigned. So far i've shown how 6-8 BVR-AAMs can be fitted. I also said that AMCA can be turned into UCAV.
But bcoz fighters need some minimum TWR (Thrust to Weight Ratio) hence a medium stealth fighter will always have insufficient internal load, especially with ground munitions. If 4gen heavy fighters had to be made with under wing pylons then situation is more critical for stealth jets.
So whether it is any gen 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, every AF of a big country has operated at least 2 jets, especially when past had dedicated role jets.
IAF is operating SIX 4gen jets - Rafale, Su-30MKI, Mirage-2000, Jaguar, LCA, MiG-29 + MiG-21 & you think ONE 5gen jet AMCA will suffice after 2-3 decades?
We're going to recreate 4gen jets in form of MWF & TEDBF, produced in 2030s & will stay in service till 2070s/80s. AMCA will be lone 5gen jet.

 

[pipebomb]

You're getting me wrong on AMCA bcoz you're new joinee here but i've already said before many times that AMCA needs to be redesigned. So far i've shown how 6-8 BVR-AAMs can be fitted. I also said that AMCA can be turned into UCAV.
But bcoz fighters need some minimum TWR (Thrust to Weight Ratio) hence a medium stealth fighter will always have insufficient internal load, especially with ground munitions. If 4gen heavy fighters had to be made with under wing pylons then situation is more critical for stealth jets.
So whether it is any gen 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, every AF of a big country has operated at least 2 jets, especially when past had dedicated role jets.
IAF is operating SIX 4gen jets - Rafale, Su-30MKI, Mirage-2000, Jaguar, LCA, MiG-29 + MiG-21 & you think ONE 5gen jet AMCA will suffice after 2-3 decades?
We're going to recreate 4gen jets in form of MWF & TEDBF, produced in 2030s & will stay in service till 2070s/80s. AMCA will be lone 5gen jet.

You got your basics all mixed up

Longitudinal/bigger IWB ≠ heavier fighter

F22 is bigger and has a higher thrust than f35 but still carry smaller/lighter payload plus f22 and has a smaller combat radius than f35

Russia is in a hard place economically and we should leverage their know how in aerodynamic control to redesign AMCA mk2

Current AMCA mk1 should go on as it is with GE f414 but AMCA mk2 should be a new/improved beast.

To loose some weight we should drop TVC requirement and also get rid of elavators. Move the engines apart and voila

 

[TopWatcher]

View: https://x.com/idrwalerts/status/1874676270405124473

is high altitude means , that type of environment created ?