DRDO and PSUs

Really, I saw many retired officers criticising we haven't inducted enough artillery haven't followed rationalisation plan. Just rant like us from there I thought its some serious real artillery capability plan. Even some footage officers aren't aware enough.
That being said our requirements are still huge.
China has total of 7500 guns in service

PLA Artillery is bigger than us, And top of that Majority is Self Propelled Artillery. We just upgrade our Field Artillery with ATAGS, Dhanush, M777, ULH from BF. Then better start inducting platforms like MGS, K9, TC20 etc.
 
Really, I saw many retired officers criticising we haven't inducted enough artillery haven't followed rationalisation plan. Just rant like us from there I thought its some serious real artillery capability plan. Even some footage officers aren't aware enough.
That being said our requirements are still huge.
China has total of 7500 guns in service

india - 3000 guns for 15000 km border with 7 countries
China - 7000 guns for 22000 km border with 14 countries

seems proportionate from a planning perspective, ofcourse wartime calculations are anybody's guess.

IA cannot procure more guns than what arty regiments can take care of.
 
Really, I saw many retired officers criticising we haven't inducted enough artillery haven't followed rationalisation plan. Just rant like us from there I thought its some serious real artillery capability plan. Even some footage officers aren't aware enough.
That being said our requirements are still huge.
China has total of 7500 guns in service
Point is we are very much capable to build a formidable artillery force
Imagine having atags ulh garuda v2 bharat 52
Along with mgs tc-20
All have cleared trails and waiting to be inducted but problem is they are indigenous
Coming to general's dissatisfaction with our artillery procurement is nothing but yapping for more imports
Our situation wrt artillery isn't same as aircrafts as we have have multiple platforms but its army that doesn't want to induct them
They want imported systems no matter what
Suppose govt allows importing you will try raining artillery orders bcoz that's our situation we need thousands and thousands of artillery in all types to establish dominance in our border regions as they are comparatively cheaper and highly effective

Nothing is gonna change we will now sit for next 8-10 years for tgs and mgs will be considered post 2028
 
since DG arty(r) had mentioned in his "The print" interview.

before 2014 article in spslandforces website, the term "Field Artillery Rationalisation Plan" officially does not exist on the internet. there is a mediumisation of arty guns plan that comes up post-kargil review during previous vajpayee gormint. the numbers being quoted are unnamed source based(i think).

from a gormint's side, FARP exists only on DRDO website and no where else.
814 number for MGS comes from AoN from 2014

FARP is a citation loop, without official source.

i don't mind being corrected on this.

Really, I saw many retired officers criticising we haven't inducted enough artillery haven't followed rationalisation plan. Just rant like us from there I thought its some serious real artillery capability plan. Even some footage officers aren't aware enough.
That being said our requirements are still huge.
China has total of 7500 guns in service

FARP will go similar to IAF's designated squadron strength thing if they're not going to induct whatever's available to them - but then again i believe it's Bofors curse that babu-politico machinery isn't that willing to risk about it

We know despite having ToT, IPR and all with us regd FH-77B design of Bofors, making 155mm/45 cal Dhanush out of it took massive hurdles to clear, and ATAGS in its core is ultra pro version of that base design

As for Baba Kalyani's Bharat-52 and other howitzers goes; I was told by some esteemed member on this forum somewhere on teligram, that Bharat-52 is just same GHN-45 that competed (and was favourite of Lt. Gen. Mayadas who was heading the evaluation team during that tender) against FH-77B but now it's indigenised as Kalyani bought entire idle assembly line and bought it here and modernised it further - and some components on it are same as Elbit ATHOS (perhaps autoloader and/or ballistic computer) =>
soooooo....."army kinda doesn't consider it indigeneous" 🤷‍♂️ and hence legible enough for tenders here :facepalm2:[ personally, this just seems like a big bahana to reject Bharat-52 and based artilleries, outright hypocrite ]

coming back to babu-politico machinery, dealing with anything that would give their supposed opposition in the parliament any ammo to criticise them 'specially when it's related to Bofors in even minute ways is a taboo that they want to avoid
 
PLA Artillery is bigger than us, And top of that Majority is Self Propelled Artillery. We just upgrade our Field Artillery with ATAGS, Dhanush, M777, ULH from BF. Then better start inducting platforms like MGS, K9, TC20 etc.
True but a huge chunk of their inventory is made up of 122mm howitzers with even less range than our 105s.
 
After ATAGS, AMAGS and ALTGS we need ASPAGS (advanced self propelled artillery gun system). There is enough requirement for all of them. That some around 3000 guns total limit is a figure of past. Things have changed, will definitely need more than 5-6k total guns easily.

We should also explore considering in lighter gun systems like Kalyani 105mm mounted and Chinese PCL 171 as brigade level assets and maybe invest in modern 122mm systems if 105mm is considered as too low of firepower.

Hope we invest in having more mortars at company and battalion levels and move towards more mobile and self propelled like systems.

Our dear Whap could have been so much more like PLL 091742551497389.webp
 
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After ATAGS, AMAGS and ALTGS we need ASPAGS (advanced self propelled artillery gun system). There is enough requirement for all of them. That some around 3000 guns total limit is a figure of past. Things have changed, will definitely need more than 5-6k total guns easily.

We should also explore considering in lighter gun systems like Kalyani 105mm mounted and Chinese PCL 171 as brigade level assets and maybe invest in modern 122mm systems if 105mm is considered as too low of firepower.

Hope we invest in having more mortars at company and battalion levels and move towards more mobile and self propelled like systems.

Our dear Whap could have been so much more like PLL 09View attachment 28033

Ammunition and spare production facilities would need an aggressive expansion as well, otherwise there'd be no point in having such a massive inventory. Plus, you'll need to raise new artillery regiments and I'm not certain the GoI will be onboard with that.
 
Ammunition and spare production facilities would need an aggressive expansion as well, otherwise there'd be no point in having such a massive inventory. Plus, you'll need to raise new artillery regiments and I'm not certain the GoI will be onboard with that.
Don't worry, production of shell's and spares won't be a problem.
That's one of the few areas we are pretty good at, and posses solid base and raw materials to drastically scale up the production in case of war.
 
After ATAGS, AMAGS and ALTGS we need ASPAGS (advanced self propelled artillery gun system). There is enough requirement for all of them. That some around 3000 guns total limit is a figure of past. Things have changed, will definitely need more than 5-6k total guns easily.

We should also explore considering in lighter gun systems like Kalyani 105mm mounted and Chinese PCL 171 as brigade level assets and maybe invest in modern 122mm systems if 105mm is considered as too low of firepower.

Hope we invest in having more mortars at company and battalion levels and move towards more mobile and self propelled like systems.

Our dear Whap could have been so much more like PLL 09View attachment 28033
I think the MAHINDRA WhAP VEHICLE IS BEST CHOICE FOR A WHEEL SELF PROPELLED HOWITZER....& FOR TRACKED SYSTEM THE ZORAWAR TANK BODY CAN BE USED.
 
True but a huge chunk of their inventory is made up of 122mm howitzers with even less range than our 105s.

PCL 161 (155mm) -- Quantity 600.
From wiki.

We may going to have MGS, MARG,K9, Garuda v2.

Potential platforms will be WHAP based gun and BHIM successor Ambedkar (Even Congress will support)
 
Really, I saw many retired officers criticising we haven't inducted enough artillery haven't followed rationalisation plan. Just rant like us from there I thought its some serious real artillery capability plan. Even some footage officers aren't aware enough.
That being said our requirements are still huge.
China has total of 7500 guns in service

PLA Artillery is bigger than us, And top of that Majority is Self Propelled Artillery. We just upgrade our Field Artillery with ATAGS, Dhanush, M777, ULH from BF. Then better start inducting platforms like MGS, K9, TC20 etc.

China's main artillery of doctrine is not tube artillery but rocket artillery.

Our main artillery is tube artillery.

Also in future I see kamikaze drones replacing artillery slowly in the long run.
 

View: https://x.com/TheLegateIN/status/1902770663296995464?t=K775pUNjttl6S9RF_k_Y9Q&s=19

What makes this case special is he was not another ch#tpagla but was doing this for crypto.




How can people be smart enough to build a career like this but dumb enough to throw it all away for a girl or for small amounts of money?

How do these people not realize that the punishment that they will get is worse than death and not just for themselves but for their entire family?

They might end up locked up till eternity and die there but their old parents and their kids and future generations that will be the ones who will bear the brunt of their actions. They will be forced to change their name and identity and lead a reclusive life for fear of being taunted by society.
 
How can people be smart enough to build a career like this but dumb enough to throw it all away for a girl or for small amounts of money?

How do these people not realize that the punishment that they will get is worse than death and not just for themselves but for their entire family?

They might end up locked up till eternity and die there but their old parents and their kids and future generations that will be the ones who will bear the brunt of their actions. They will be forced to change their name and identity and lead a reclusive life for fear of being taunted by society.
It's not about smartness, attaching these actions to intelligence/smartness is a fallacy.
Its self-control, resilience,will, control over impulses/temptations.
having your logical and conscious Brain dominating over desire.

There are very few people with will and mindset to resist short term temptations for long term benefits.
Lots of people give much easily to short term temptations if it's big enough and they have some amount of confidence of not getting caught.
Some people are natural risk takers, some are lot more Risk avoiding type.
It also depends on the mental, financial condition and desperation at the time of the offer.

Though it all can be reduced if employees are trained at the start to report these, and are told about all the consequences.
 
Hows OFB churning out Dhanush..
They had delivered 32 until July 2024.
And dhakkans were promising to deliver 48 guns to the Army in 2024-25.. I would be happy if they delivered 12 :rolleyes:

With 32 guns delivered so far, GCF now plans to hand over 48 Dhanush to the Army in the current financial year, said Advance Weapons and Equipment India Limited (AWEIL) chairman Rajesh Chaudhary. AWEIL has an order of making 114 Dhanush guns for the Army.

_https://www.google.com/amp/s/timeso...-with-precision/amp_articleshow/111873736.cms
 
Damn
northrop already left , usaf not wanting lockheed eventually it's was gonna go with boeing only.
Even in faxx of us navy northrop grumman is gonna get the contract. Lockheed is out finally

Btw there new models is quite advance
Design by one corporation
Manufacturing by another
And life time support maintanence spares by some other corporation. Not letting any one go out of bussines. We should be taking notes.
 
Thanks for finding the video, quite refreshing to see a rare clip of its operation

after searching about its turret by Denel, on Army Guide, they've written about it extensively




Designed with Bharat Eath Movers Ltd.

  • Integrated C4I


  • Automatic ammunition handling


  • Automatic gun laying


  • Autonomous inertial navigation and gps


  • Enhanced bite


  • Built in redundancy


Development/Description


The LIW 155 mm 52 calibre turret system has been developed as a private venture by LIW for the export market and builds on the experience obtained in the design, development and production of the 155 mm/ G6/45 calibre 6x6 self-propelled artillery system which is in service with Oman, South Africa and the United Arab Emirates.

The G6, in turn, builds on experience obtained in the combat-proven 155 mm 45 calibre G5 towed artillery system.

The T6 turret can be mounted on any suitable chassis and has already been integrated onto a T-72M1, Arjun and G6 chassis.

The newT6 155 mm 52 calibre turret is a completely autonomous turret system that differs from the G6, in that provision has been made for the storage of projectiles and charges in the turret. This required a repacking of the turret power unit and bustle.

The T6 turret system sent to India was fitted with a 155 mm 52 calibre ordnance which, firing Extended Range Full-Bore Base Bleed (ERFB-BB) projectiles, gives a maximum range of 41,000 m.

The chamber volume is 23 litres, similar to the chamber volume of the standard production 155 mm 45 calibre system. The recoil system has been upgraded and now has diametrically opposed buffers similar to the single buffer used on the G6 but with integral oil replenishers. Two diagrammatically opposed gas-operated recuperators are fitted.

The design of the barrel and cradle has been modified to make it possible to remove and replace the barrel from the front. The barrel is fitted with a double baffle muzzle brake and a steel fume extractor.

The breech mechanism used in the T6 is a newly patented design and is of the slide and swing type with double split rings and obturator pad. An automatic primer loader with a 20 round magazine is integrated with the breech.

A barrel cooling fan is fitted on the cradle to reduce recovery time in the event of unsafe barrel temperatures being reached. A barrel temperature measurement system has also been installed which gives a warning to the commander in case of high barrel temperatures.

The turret is fitted with a fully automated charge and projectile replenishment, handling and loading system.

The T6 turret has been designed to fire all types of NATO ammunition. Using the Denel manufactured ERFB (Extended Range Full Bore) boat tail and Extended Range Full-Bore Base Bleed (ERFB-BB) projectiles, the modular combustible case charge system muzzle velocities and maximum range under standard conditions are as table above:

The ammunition, projectiles, charges and fuzes fired by the more recent T6 are identical to that fired by the well established G5 and G6 155 mm 45 calibre artillery systems.

The charge system is the modular combustile case cartridge system developed by the SOMCHEM Division of Denel which consists of the M51 charge, M52 charge which can be fitted with one or two charge increments and a stand-alone charge M53 that gives a total of five zones. These charges have special barrel erosion reduction and flash suppression properties.

According to LIW, specifications for dispersion are similar to those of the current production 155 mm 45 calibre system. Probable errors of 0.48 per cent of range and one mile in deflection at 75 per cent of maximum range are quoted.

In firing trials, probable errors of 0.3 to 0.4 per cent of range and 0.35 to 0.4 mile in deflection have been obtained consistently with both boat tail and base bleed ammunition. Using the M53A2 top charge, barrel life is more than 3,500 rounds.

The T6 system has already been qualified with high-explosive smoke and red phosphorus projectiles, of boat tail and base bleed types, to the full range potential.

The T6 turret has full traverse through 360° with the 155 mm 52 calibre ordnance capable of being elevated from-5to+75°. When travelling the ordnance is held in position by an A-frame which is pivoted at the front of the hull.

The ammunition handling system of the T6 is very flexible and can be changed depending on the tactical situation and the customers exact operational requirements.

The T6 turret carries a total of 40 complete 155 mm rounds and, depending on the chassis type selected, an additional 10 155 mm complete rounds can be carried.

In the ammunition handling system, the projectile and charges are transferred from the carousels to the same position into the charge and projectile loading arms. This facilitates extremely quick loading of all onboard ammunition. Replenishment of the onboard ammunition can be accomplished either through two doors in the turret rear, or via the turret compartment.

The T6 can also fire ammunition directly from a ground pile, so bypassing the ammunition storage system. For this purpose, two openings and trays have been provided in the turret to chassis interface, one on the left side and one on the right side.

Loading is by means of two automatic rammer systems, one for the projectiles and one for the charges.

The maximum rate of fire is 6 rds/min for all onboard ammunition. The sustained rate of fire is 2 rds/min for as long as safe barrel temperatures are maintained as indicated in the temperature warning system.

The T6 uses the same laying and navigation system as used in the G6. An autolaying system is coupled to the laying and navigation system as in the G6 and enables rapid relaying between rounds.

As an independent 36 kW turret power unit is fitted in the turret bustle, the main engine of the chassis can be switched off during firing.

The interface ring between the T6 turret and the T-72 chassis allows for the removal of the T-72 engine with the turret traversed 90° to the side.

The turret is of all-welded steel armour that provides the crew with protection from small arms fire and shell splinters. In total, eight 82 mm smoke grenade launchers are mounted on the front of the turret. An LIW 7.62 mm S77 machine gun is fitted externally on the left cupola for local and anti-aircraft defence.

Standard G6 systems fitted to the T6 are the crew compartment communication system, (intercom and radio) and the automatic fire detection and suppression system. Mounted on the cradle is a muzzle velocity measurement radar.


VLAP projectile


Early in 1997, the SOMCHEM Division of Denel revealed that it had developed a new 155 mm Velocity enhanced Long-range Artillery Projectile (VLAP) which has a range of more than 50 km.

By 1999, development of the VLAP had been completed and it was moving into the industrialisation phase. The VLAP has been developed for the export market.

As well as being fired from the current 155 mm 45 calibre G5 and G6 artillery systems, VLAP can also be fired from other 155 mm 39 calibre and 52 calibre systems using standard artillery charges.

No modifications are required to the actual weapon for firing the VLAP and there would be no changes to the drills or logistics. Extensive firing trials have shown that the VLAP has excellent reliability, dispersion and range.

The new VLAP has the standard elongated shape with welded nubs which is also used for the ERFB and ERFB-BB projectiles.

In addition to the base bleed unit it also has a rocket motor assist which typically extends the range by 10 km depending on the weapon and charge used.

As the rocket motor extends into the VLAP body there is some loss of HE content when compared with the standard ERFB projectiles.

SOMCHEM stresses that the VLAP is complementary to Denel's existing 155 mm ERFB and ERFB-BB projectiles as it would enable friendly artillery systems to engage threat artillery systems while remaining safe from counter battery fire.

In addition, it would enable targets well to the rear such as command centres, air defence systems and logistics centres, which are now beyond the range of many artillery systems, to be engaged.

Status

Development complete. Ready for production. Evaluated in India.

Specifications:
PropertyValue
Main weapon caliber (mm)
155​
Barrel length (calibres)
52​
Weight (kg)
18500​
Number of smoke grenade launchers
4​
Elevation (degree)
75​
Depression (degree)
-5​
Traverse arc (degree)
360​
Firing range (m)
50​
Rate of fire (rds/min)
8​
Crew
5​


ProductAmount
Included in:
Bhim (Self-propelled howitzer)
1​


Has folowing part:
TotalAmount
VLAP (Projectile)
1​

so TL;DR; here is
- it does have two separate rammers for pushing 155mm projectile as well as propellant charge packs in succession

while reading for K-9 on Army Guide, it says
- Internally an automatic loading system takes projectiles from the storage position and places them onto the ammunition tray ready for ramming. The projectiles are loaded into the chamber automatically by the flick rammer. The charges are loaded manually.

however, there are videos of improved K9A2 version of SPH that's given more automation at chambering part with two rammers that push projectile and propellant charge in succession; guess K9A3 is going to follow it too

so yeah, in terms of timeline Bhim was a bit ahead than vanilla K9 in this regard

but perhaps biggest advantage of K9 system is its automatic ammunition resupply vehicle K10 something that quickly loads up entire SPH

any future Bhim SPH revival project should come out with indigeneous alternative to K10 automatic ammunition resupply vehicle at least

one of thing that kinda annoys me is, Turkiye also makes their version of K9 there, and since Turkiye-Paki = Miya-Bibi to each others there're chances for porks getting some critical info regd K9's performance to counter us in any potential conflict, so we should aim for aatmanirbhartaa for SPHs in long run
The visionary Indian Army did not choose to purchase K10 Resupply Vehicles.
 

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