DRDO and PSUs

[Corvus Splendens]

ATAGS in Armenia

 

[randombully]

Isn't Astra mk3 (SFDR) using similar engine & fuel as STAR?

Agree regarding range, energy retention and terminal energy but dual & triple pulse solid fuel AAMs kind of negate some of those advantages. One key advantage of solid AAM is less reaction time as they may have higher average velocity during duration of flight.

Astra mk3 will be solid fuel.

Star'a primary role will be to act as supersonic target, hence it should also be able to mimic fighter jets in flights, so a throttlablity of liquid fuel is quite important for that, along with energy retention.

But for AAM role, solid fuel with multiple pulses or clever casing designs compensate more than enough for throttlablity( though can't achieve as much as liquid fuel missiles) that combined with other benifit that solid fuel provides( cheap, easily storable, immediately ready for deployment) makes it a overall better choice for now.

 

[snakeeyes07]

Astra mk3 will be solid fuel.

Star'a primary role will be to act as supersonic target, hence it should also be able to mimic fighter jets in flights, so a throttlablity of liquid fuel is quite important for that, along with energy retention.

But for AAM role, solid fuel with multiple pulses or clever casing designs compensate more than enough for throttlablity( though can't achieve as much as liquid fuel missiles) that combined with other benifit that solid fuel provides( cheap, easily storable, immediately ready for deployment) makes it a overall better choice for now.

Astra mk3 is ramjet. There is talk about modifying STAR to use as an anti-AEW&C AAM.

 

[randombully]

Astra mk3 is ramjet

View attachment 38678

Astra mk3 will be solid fuel missile.

 

[snakeeyes07]

Astra mk3 will be solid fuel missile.

Check the DRDO poster

 

[Blood+]

My point was not about debating use of artillary shells over rocket.

It was purely focused on damage caused by 100s of munitions hitting the airbase, even if they individually posses smaller warheads.

I get that, mate. What I'm saying is that it'd make sense only in case these proposed ramjet shells are significantly cheaper than a guided rocket.

 

[Blood+]

Check the DRDO poster

It's a solid fuel ramjet, the same as in the Akash 1 and its variants!!

 

[snakeeyes07]

It's a solid fuel ramjet, the same as in the Akash 1 and its variants!!

Yes, same class as meteor. What I meant is that it is not a typical solid fuel/stage AAM like Astra mk1,2 & PL15.

I believe is liquid fueled ramjet and canistered, so it should be relatively stable that it can be used for a STAR based AAM (limited quantities for specially targeting AEW&Cs & refuelers).

 

[randombully]

Yes, same class as meteor. What I meant is that it is not a typical solid fuel/stage AAM like Astra mk1,2 & PL15.

I believe is liquid fueled ramjet and canistered, so it should be relatively stable that it can be used for a STAR based AAM (limited quantities for specially targeting AEW&Cs & refuelers).

There are other ways you can targets awacs and refullers too.

Like you can also use solid fuel ramjet even if it less dense compared to liquid fuel, you can still use that to make a missile that provides sufficient range,
Astra mk3 already stated to have 350km max range when launched at 20km altitude( or a added booster to get it to this altitude for a ground launched varient).
other Pros will also be there like cheaper cost, easily storable etc mentioned above.

You can also go russian style and make a quasi-ballistic/ highly manurable ballistic missile to target awacs, like the 40N6 missile used in s400.
( it's booster propels it to very high altitude then it dives down towards the target in a ballistic arc, though normal AAM missiles also kinda do similar thing.)

You also can make a 3 or more pulse rocket powered missile, with additional booster rocket.


Awacs, are large, less maneuverable and slow target so you don't need high energy retention or too high speed or high g maneuverability in your missile to target those.


air launched would be pretty capable, but pretty expensive for a awacs killer missiles.
Plus we don't have the capablity to fully utilize the 500km max range of air launched brahmos.
We can target awacs which almost 350-400 km away from our ground based radars for now.


As for our aerial platforms,
even if we use our own awacs radar, we can almost locate enemy awacs 400km away, which can be enough to get a firing solution to fighters firing a missile in that direction and hoping there is not much deviation in enemy awacs position by the time missile gets there, but our own awacs will be ~100 or more kms behind our own fighters.
So right now we don't have a capablity to guide or cue a awacs killer missile to a target that is more than 250-300 km away from airborne fighter jets.
Hence Astra mk3 with 350km range is more than enough for our current guidance Capablities.


When we can get better /more powerful aerial radars in our awacs and fighters, than we should look for a awacs killer missile with longer range than Astra mk3.

This is also the reason iaf didn't go with anti awacs varient of brahmos, we can't utilize it's full potential, though even if we could utilize that it would still be better to go for a alternative cheaper missile than expensive brahmos for that role.

 

[fire starter]

View: https://x.com/SpokespersonMoD/status/1931677305794936859?t=yMAm3KhbX8g_XFZNM29eLQ&s=19

 

[ezsasa]

there was an collage of all missiles in one pic, can someone post that pic once again.

 

[randombully]

Astra mk3 is ramjet. There is talk about modifying STAR to use as an anti-AEW&C AAM.

View attachment 38678

We already are developing astra mk3.

And star missile from what I know will have less range than astra mk3, though it will also primarly operate in lower denser atmosphere.

Bur as said before, even if we managed to increase star's range beyond astra mk3( which is doable, specially if it flies similar to other AAMs) we won't be able to guide it at ranges exceeding astra mk3's range with our current systems.

So developing a awacs killer missile which can have more range than astra mk3 we are developing doesn't make sense for now.

Also awacs are slows and large target, solid fuels are "more" than enough energy for retention for turning needs to target awacs/refullers etc.

 

[snakeeyes07]

We already are developing astra mk3.

And star missile from what I know will have less range than astra mk3, though it will also primarly operate in lower denser atmosphere.

Bur as said before, even if we managed to increase star's range beyond astra mk3( which is doable, specially if it flies similar to other AAMs) we won't be able to guide it at ranges exceeding astra mk3's range with our current systems.

So developing a awacs killer missile which can have more range than astra mk3 we are developing doesn't make sense for now.

Also awacs are slows and large target, solid fuels are "more" than enough energy for retention for turning needs to target awacs/refullers etc.

Point taken, my thinking is that a longer range BVR missile (more than Astra mk3) is needed especially for targeting AEW&CS. It has utility even if target updates are not provided to it beyond a certain point, it doesn't need to kill the AEW&CS to be effective. If it goes pitbull in the general area of AEW&CS, it will force it go defensive and no longer be available on station, it will create chaos and disrupt PAF command & control. This will provide IAF windows to push the advantage. Just rinse & repeat and keep them off balance.

 

[snakeeyes07]

Pakistan may very well start flying AEW&CS and refuelers over Afghanistan, it would be ideal for India if they can Afghanistan with modernized SA-3s or other reasonable AD to deny them this space.

Edit: on second thought AEW&CS would be out of their tracking range then anyway so that works in IAF's favor.

 

[liberalredditor]

We already are developing astra mk3.

And star missile from what I know will have less range than astra mk3, though it will also primarly operate in lower denser atmosphere.

Bur as said before, even if we managed to increase star's range beyond astra mk3( which is doable, specially if it flies similar to other AAMs) we won't be able to guide it at ranges exceeding astra mk3's range with our current systems.

So developing a awacs killer missile which can have more range than astra mk3 we are developing doesn't make sense for now.

Also awacs are slows and large target, solid fuels are "more" than enough energy for retention for turning needs to target awacs/refullers etc.

what was the main intention and target in developing star missile??

google baba is saying that - The DRDO's STAR (Supersonic TARget) missile is a revolutionary target drone designed to simulate supersonic anti-ship missiles for training and testing purposes

 

[randombully]

Point taken, my thinking is that a longer range BVR missile (more than Astra mk3) is needed especially for targeting AEW&CS. It has utility even if target updates are not provided to it beyond a certain point, it doesn't need to kill the AEW&CS to be effective. If it goes pitbull in the general area of AEW&CS, it will force it go defensive and no longer be available on station, it will create chaos and disrupt PAF command & control. This will provide IAF windows to push the advantage. Just rinse & repeat and keep them off balance.

How will you lob it in awacs direction when you "can't even detect" the enemy awacs?

As said before our known awacs can only detect enemy awacs at max ~400-450km distance in extended mode.
And our own awacs will be atleast 100-150km behind our fighters( actually could be more behind in reality), so our fighters will already be within 250-350km range( astra mk3's range) of enemy awacs if our awacs Is able to detect enemy awacs.

 

[randombully]

what was the main intention and target in developing star missile??

google baba is saying that - The DRDO's STAR (Supersonic TARget) missile is a revolutionary target drone designed to simulate supersonic anti-ship missiles for training and testing purposes

Yeah.
It's main purpose is to simulate "super sonic cruise missiles"( like brahmos), "figher jets in supersonic mode" etc.
To validate our systems and capabilities in taking own these threats by practicing with star.
But it can also be used in lot of other roles.
Like , actually being used ad a supersonic cruise missile to target enemy assets, anti awacs role etc.
But that doesn't mean it will be used, all depends on users( armed forces) will.

 

[liberalredditor]

Yeah.
It's main purpose is to simulate "super sonic cruise missiles"( like brahmos), "figher jets in supersonic mode" etc.
To validate our systems and capabilities in taking own these threats by practicing with star.
But it can also be used in lot of other roles.
Like , actually being used ad a supersonic cruise missile to target enemy assets, anti awacs role etc.
But that doesn't mean it will be used, all depends on users( armed forces) will.

so basically we can do slight modification and convert in a2a or a2g roles too???

can it replace brahmos 290 km version?? the pre mtcr version which was the most expensive to maintain?

 

[snakeeyes07]

How will you lob it in awacs direction when you "can't even detect" the enemy awacs?

As said before our known awacs can only detect enemy awacs at max ~400-450km distance in extended mode.
And our own awacs will be atleast 100-150km behind our fighters( actually could be more behind in reality), so our fighters will already be within 250-350km range( astra mk3's range) of enemy awacs if our awacs Is able to detect enemy awacs.

Scanning AEW&CS within resolution of 300m-1000m (general area) accuracy should be achievable passively by triangulation via EW system (AEW&CS will be emitting S-band) and/or actively by a LRTR type radar. You can get initial INS launch parameters. And it should be possible to provide decent target updates to it as well.

 

[chnvipgz]

View: https://x.com/BJP4India/status/1931684050030285022?t=IYhz9cA_AG46x1_puavF6Q&s=19
Kaveri engine twitter trend reached higher up.