DRDO & PSUs (31 Viewers)

Buying just one regiment of Archer will blow away our artillery budget. Besides in the age of drone warfare equipment has to be cheap and disposable.
I wrote about how we can duplicate the Archer here & genius here comes up with how buying the Archer sinks our budget.

Also highlighted how the Archer was more agile as compared to our MGS only to read equipment must be cheap & disposable.

Known as chauthi mein char baar fail for good reason.
 
You need to quote #5927 & explain that as well for your post contradicts the former in some ways.
Na, he just mentioned it differently.
With the turret like system and full autoloading, drdo mgs will exceed 35 tons in weight, closer to 40 tons.
As Said before army doesn't want to sacrifice in range( mountains) or increase in weight(mountains).
Now we can also use Excalibur rounds for more increased range, but they are more expensive rounds in very limited quantity and army is not willing to increase their usage to more mainstay.

The auto loader of mgs that hold 6 rounds is the best compromise for our needs, In shoot and scoot mode you won't be firing more than 6 rounds too.
It's generally 3 rounds that are Fired in shoot and scoot mode, but can differ case by case.
In shoot and scoots, crew of mgs does not need to leave the armoured cabin, just like archer.
But archer holds total 21 rounds, all Inside it's turret that can be autoloaded.
Drdo mgs holds 24 rounds, out of which 6 are in autoloader, 18 are stored which needs manual loading( with the help of attached crane) to load into autoloader after 6 rounds are used.

Drdo mgs needs, 3-4 minutes to setup, fire 3 rounds, retract the gun, leave.
4-5 minutes In case of 6 rounds fired.

Archer needs 1.5-2.5 minutes for same 3 rounds.
2-3 minutes for 6 rounds.


Where drdo mgs will be significantly slow is if it needs to be used in short duration sustained fire, crew will need to come out to load the autoloader, but it will be as slow as normal towed artillary guns.
Archer in short duration sustained fire will be faster by miles until it empties its 21 rounds magazine.

Another advantage of archer is less in-between time between 3-7 different location for shoot and scoot, as all 21 rounds are in autoloader.
While in drdo mgs, crew will take minutes to load 6 rounds in its autoloader between two locations for shoot and scoot.

But again, both hold limited ammo of 21 and 24 rounds, and will need to move back to base reload them frequently.
Both will take 10-15 minutes to reload full magazine.


Also archer like fully automated turret will be lot more expensive.

Full his comment about tracked sph and auto turret, we locally produce k9vajra and it weighs ~50tons.

@Hawkeye
 
Last edited:
The auto loader of mgs that hold 6 rounds is the best compromise for our needs, In shoot and scoot mode you won't be firing more than 6 rounds too.
Doesn't look like DRDO MGS has the 6 round magazine that ATAGS has, it's mechanism is similar to Ceaser artillery.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTzLzAzLNo4

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ru1FGiOUMCQ

View: https://x.com/DefenceDecode/status/1942241876414734841

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFSZigjP5ew
 
Last edited:
going for a simple mgs and
Na, he just mentioned it differently.
With the turret like system and full autoloading, drdo mgs will exceed 35 tons in weight, closer to 40 tons.
As Said before army doesn't want to sacrifice in range( mountains) or increase in weight(mountains).
Now we can also use Excalibur rounds for more increased range, but they are more expensive rounds in very limited quantity and army is not willing to increase their usage to more mainstay.

The auto loader of mgs that hold 6 rounds is the best compromise for our needs, In shoot and scoot mode you won't be firing more than 6 rounds too.
It's generally 3 rounds that are Fired in shoot and scoot mode, but can differ case by case.
In shoot and scoots, crew of mgs does not need to leave the armoured cabin, just like archer.
But archer holds total 21 rounds, all Inside it's turret that can be autoloaded.
Drdo mgs holds 24 rounds, out of which 6 are in autoloader, 18 are stored which needs manual loading( with the help of attached crane) to load into autoloader after 6 rounds are used.

Drdo mgs needs, 3-4 minutes to setup, fire 3 rounds, retract the gun, leave.
4-5 minutes In case of 6 rounds fired.

Archer needs 1.5-2.5 minutes for same 3 rounds.
2-3 minutes for 6 rounds.


Where drdo mgs will be significantly slow is if it needs to be used in short duration sustained fire, crew will need to come out to load the autoloader, but it will be as slow as normal towed artillary guns.
Archer in short duration sustained fire will be faster by miles until it empties its 21 rounds magazine.

Another advantage of archer is less in-between time between 3-7 different location for shoot and scoot, as all 21 rounds are in autoloader.
While in drdo mgs, crew will take minutes to load 6 rounds in its autoloader between two locations for shoot and scoot.

But again, both hold limited ammo of 21 and 24 rounds, and will need to move back to base reload them frequently.
Both will take 10-15 minutes to reload full magazine.


Also archer like fully automated turret will be lot more expensive.

Full his comment about tracked sph and auto turret, we locally produce k9vajra and it weighs ~50tons.

@Hawkeye
Not sure if these are correct figures or not but the difference in price is huge

View: https://x.com/DuniyaKePapa/status/1942179999097766269

I don't think MGS has a 5-6 magzine loaded like Atags. Atleast I can't see it anywhere on the mgs. Most likely it will work same like automated two arms of Caesar 8*8.

Also, I don't think range has anything to do with turret autoloader. Surely the system will be tad heavy that's it but nothing to do with autoloader I believe.
 
regd testbed situation, i know it's late but,
could we have used retiring Tu-144s as testbed for Kaveri derivatives, like, remove bomb bay on its belly and attach KDE module below, it does seem huge enough with payload capacity to carry one engine and giving that it served diligently in indian environment we could have benefited that way too
 
wasn't there are 6*6 truck for mgs purpose by beml in making. Is the 6*6 variant of mgs also in development??

Found it

View: https://x.com/Defencematrix1/status/1675564882249302019

This is not a alone BEML thing. Even current Drdo mgs truck is made by BEML. We also saw the current mgs cab schematics before as well.

1751946967980.webp


Say whatever you want but the Chinese Sh-15 is a very compact design. Maybe we felt the need of 6*6 mgs for mountains?

Maybe ALTGS which is in making by DRDO can be put on it. Basically the lighter brother of Atags.
 
Last edited:
wasn't there are 6*6 truck for mgs purpose by beml in making. Is the 6*6 variant of mgs also in development??

Found it

View: https://x.com/Defencematrix1/status/1675564882249302019

This is not a alone BEML thing. Even current Drdo mgs truck is made by BEML. We also saw the current mgs cab schematics before as well.

View attachment 42635


Say whatever you want but the Chinese Sh-15 is a very compact design. Maybe we felt the need of 6*6 mgs for mountains?

Maybe ALTGS which is in making by DRDO can be put on it. Basically the lighter brother of Atags.

I saw videos during Op Sindoor of PA SH-15 having limited flexibility with firing positions in POJK. They were only firing from open fields between wide valleys.

SH-15 will have a better time when deployed across Tibetan plateau.

IMO Himalayan terrain is a challenge for effective deployment of MGS.


View: https://x.com/Duorope/status/1920776197509689599
 
Also, I don't think range has anything to do with turret autoloader. Surely the system will be tad heavy that's it but nothing to do with autoloader I believe.
That's the problem.
Same range means more weight due to additional mechanismof autoloader, drdo mgs at 30 tons is already at the limit allowed by army.
Indian Army requirement of Mounted Gun System
****Army is expecting a MGS with maximum combat weight of 30,000 kg, maximum range of 38 km and minimum range of 5 km in high angle****
38 km with normal boat tail ammo.
So for full turret like archer, either smaller bore and barrel with lower range to keep the weight similar, or same range but higher weight.
Plus archer on 6×6 platform weighs 33 tons.
38 tons on 8×8 platform
ParametersVolvo A30D (6×6)Rheinmetall HX2 (HX44M) (8×8)
Mass34.0 t (75,000 lb)38.0 t (83,800 lb).
.
And that's when both have smaller chamber and lower range with same ammo.


And again in mountains, himalayas. 8×8 will better distribute the weight, lowering the per per m2 pressure on ground.
Unless the entire system including gun is made smaller and lighter, sacrificing range then 6×6 will work, but marg 45 is already present.
n't think MGS has a 5-6 magzine loaded like Atags. Atleast I can't see it anywhere on the mgs. Most likely it will work same like automated two arms of Caesar 8*8.
I was wrong.
Your right about that, the plans were dropped for weight limits.

It's Caesar like, loaders will need to exist the armoured cab.


And yeah price will different, if we were to have a turret like archer, it will be 2-3 times more expensive than current mgs
 
wasn't there are 6*6 truck for mgs purpose by beml in making. Is the 6*6 variant of mgs also in development??

Found it

View: https://x.com/Defencematrix1/status/1675564882249302019

This is not a alone BEML thing. Even current Drdo mgs truck is made by BEML. We also saw the current mgs cab schematics before as well.

View attachment 42635


Say whatever you want but the Chinese Sh-15 is a very compact design. Maybe we felt the need of 6*6 mgs for mountains?

Maybe ALTGS which is in making by DRDO can be put on it. Basically the lighter brother of Atags.

Most likely this could be for a lesser calibre like 155/45 instead of 155/52..


View: https://x.com/JuyalHritik/status/1885297638331011303?t=vksJy3Ph3PcBNm4rWsMUOA&s=19
 
Na, he just mentioned it differently.
With the turret like system and full autoloading, drdo mgs will exceed 35 tons in weight, closer to 40 tons.
As Said before army doesn't want to sacrifice in range( mountains) or increase in weight(mountains).
Now we can also use Excalibur rounds for more increased range, but they are more expensive rounds in very limited quantity and army is not willing to increase their usage to more mainstay.

The auto loader of mgs that hold 6 rounds is the best compromise for our needs, In shoot and scoot mode you won't be firing more than 6 rounds too.
It's generally 3 rounds that are Fired in shoot and scoot mode, but can differ case by case.
In shoot and scoots, crew of mgs does not need to leave the armoured cabin, just like archer.
But archer holds total 21 rounds, all Inside it's turret that can be autoloaded.
Drdo mgs holds 24 rounds, out of which 6 are in autoloader, 18 are stored which needs manual loading( with the help of attached crane) to load into autoloader after 6 rounds are used.

Drdo mgs needs, 3-4 minutes to setup, fire 3 rounds, retract the gun, leave.
4-5 minutes In case of 6 rounds fired.

Archer needs 1.5-2.5 minutes for same 3 rounds.
2-3 minutes for 6 rounds.


Where drdo mgs will be significantly slow is if it needs to be used in short duration sustained fire, crew will need to come out to load the autoloader, but it will be as slow as normal towed artillary guns.
Archer in short duration sustained fire will be faster by miles until it empties its 21 rounds magazine.

Another advantage of archer is less in-between time between 3-7 different location for shoot and scoot, as all 21 rounds are in autoloader.
While in drdo mgs, crew will take minutes to load 6 rounds in its autoloader between two locations for shoot and scoot.

But again, both hold limited ammo of 21 and 24 rounds, and will need to move back to base reload them frequently.
Both will take 10-15 minutes to reload full magazine.


Also archer like fully automated turret will be lot more expensive.

Full his comment about tracked sph and auto turret, we locally produce k9vajra and it weighs ~50tons.

@Hawkeye
The autoloder for drdo mgs, 6 rounds.
Is wrong here.
It's mechanism requires loading crew to come out like Caesar.
 
I wrote about how we can duplicate the Archer here & genius here comes up with how buying the Archer sinks our budget.

Also highlighted how the Archer was more agile as compared to our MGS only to read equipment must be cheap & disposable.

Known as chauthi mein char baar fail for good reason.
Context varies here, we will use artillery in a much more immobile terrain, aka mountains and deep mountainous forests, here range is more important than ability to fire and flee.

Archer makes more sense in European flats where artillery are gonna be much close , thus ability to fire at your enemy lines and evade counter battery fire is effective.
 

1000013613.webp
Tata Advanced Systems Limited (TASL) has developed a new Truck-Mounted Howitzer (TMH) based on the ATAGS.

Will compete with drdo MGS based on BEML chassis for army requirements.
 
Context varies here, we will use artillery in a much more immobile terrain, aka mountains and deep mountainous forests, here range is more important than ability to fire and flee.

Archer makes more sense in European flats where artillery are gonna be much close , thus ability to fire at your enemy lines and evade counter battery fire is effective.
Mountaineous terrain is to our Northern & North Eastern borders not to our west with the exception of J&K. Right from Punjab southwards you've flat plains & deserts.

The biggest fallacy our planners especially in the IA make is to get a one size fits all solution & since it's next to impossible to get something which suits two different topographies they spend the rest of their time modifying either the requirements or the system.

One way of avoiding this conundrum is not to consider the threat in the N & NE at all which is what we did for a very long time till 2020.

If agility & quick response time is to be prized we need Archer like solutions. Not claiming the MGS as it is built shouldn't feature in our line up . They must. Especially if you consider the FARP of the IA still features close to 1500 towed artillery with MGS restricted to < 1000 nos.
 
Mountaineous terrain is to our Northern & North Eastern borders not to our west with the exception of J&K. Right from Punjab southwards you've flat plains & deserts.

The biggest fallacy our planners especially in the IA make is to get a one size fits all solution & since it's next to impossible to get something which suits two different topographies they spend the rest of their time modifying either the requirements or the system.

One way of avoiding this conundrum is not to consider the threat in the N & NE at all which is what we did for a very long time till 2020.

If agility & quick response time is to be prized we need Archer like solutions. Not claiming the MGS as it is built shouldn't feature in our line up . They must. Especially if you consider the FARP of the IA still features close to 1500 towed artillery with MGS restricted to < 1000 nos.
We can use this heavy boy in flat terrain.
1000013616.webp
Can shoot and scoot, under 1 minute 30 seconds for 3 round burst fire.
Under 2 minutes for 6 round burst fire.

Also being tracked, will help it in desert.
It's also deployed in flat terrains of Ladakh in high altitude.
 

View attachment 42641
Tata Advanced Systems Limited (TASL) has developed a new Truck-Mounted Howitzer (TMH) based on the ATAGS.

Will compete with drdo MGS based on BEML chassis for army requirements.
My bet is on DRDO Kalyani MGS
 
Mountaineous terrain is to our Northern & North Eastern borders not to our west with the exception of J&K. Right from Punjab southwards you've flat plains & deserts.

The biggest fallacy our planners especially in the IA make is to get a one size fits all solution & since it's next to impossible to get something which suits two different topographies they spend the rest of their time modifying either the requirements or the system.

One way of avoiding this conundrum is not to consider the threat in the N & NE at all which is what we did for a very long time till 2020.

If agility & quick response time is to be prized we need Archer like solutions. Not claiming the MGS as it is built shouldn't feature in our line up . They must. Especially if you consider the FARP of the IA still features close to 1500 towed artillery with MGS restricted to < 1000 nos.
You're right about our forces obsession with having single system for all purposes. We do need k9 vajra type system for plains in West. There was recent news about Kalyani looking to develop tracked sph
 
My bet is on DRDO Kalyani MGS
Looks like it
But in TATA's THM the gun can rotate sideways/horizontal(traverse) on its axis, allowing it to functions as traditional towed artillary along with shoot and scoot of self propelled artillary, along with storing more ammo.
With drdo kalyani mgs, traverse angle is limited, entire truck needs rotate for large changes in traverse.
1000013618.webp
1000013617.webp
You can see in both photos the gun is rotated 180° , 1st pix facing forward, 2nd one facing backwards.
Though it also looks like(not confirmed), that gun can't be operated from inside the cabin, will need to be operated similar to towed atags.
 
Looks like it
But in TATA's THM the gun can rotate sideways/horizontal(traverse) on its axis, allowing it to functions as traditional towed artillary along with shoot and scoot of self propelled artillary, along with storing more ammo.
With drdo kalyani mgs, traverse angle is limited, entire truck needs rotate for large changes in traverse.
View attachment 42644
View attachment 42645
You can see in both photos the gun is rotated 180° , 1st pix facing forward, 2nd one facing backwards.
Though it also looks like(not confirmed), that gun can't be operated from inside the cabin, will need to be operated similar to towed atags.
I think DRDO MGS has 30 degree traverse capability
1751952235638.webp
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Latest Replies

Featured Content

Trending Threads

Back
Top