GTRE GTX 35VS Kaveri

the thing is, govt still treats engine development like some road construction project where they have to deliver something that resembles the product on paper, they don't want to take risk, in the process of a engine development there would be many failure, our babu class for whatever reason doesn't want to face with failures .
The current gov will fund development once current kaveri proves itself otherwise we would have to solely rely on jv for even basic 4 gen engine of Tejas. Tech would come from there then kaveri would be improved in order to replace f404.
As I said here
Complete indigeneous F404 replacement will come up in 5-6 years while 110-120kn class engine would take 10-12 years. As per samir v kamat this will happen if gobermint is willing to fund infrastructure this is were there will shatters.
The cost for development Infrastructure including testbeds, manufacturing plants machining toolings & mfg processes, testings Facilities certification would be exorbitant i suppose it would still cost less than a jv with france which was initially thought to be around 5 billion we even see 6-7 billions in media. It could exceed even that.

However what is then left is the adaptive cycle tech as no such thing would come with k10 it is unclear as we are looking for to long. But there's high possibility of jv happens as drdo has already expressed there desires for adaptive cycle given the jv partners are working on 6th gen jets it seems likely but full tot seems unlikely along with hot section.

Anyways, government instead wants to avoid this hassle which doesn't guarantee 100% as per them and wants to get into a jv which would guarantee the invested money wouldn't result in failures like with kaveri but they forget the Infrastructure needed to test them. Are they willing to fund that Infra in jv is a questionable. Or they just want to rely on france for that matters avoiding that cost while getting a engine to be put in production in india for AMCA,mk2. Unclear tho.

In short gov will only care if the existing kaveri proves itself then a newer kaveri will be initiated for error 404 replaced which has to again prove itself along with all new technologies developed for it. Then gov might be confident enough to put money in or maybe gov will fund the oldy goldy k10 idea once even the baseline current kaveri is certified & proved. While f404 replacement & k10 110-120kn class engine will be run in parallel. My words take it with bag of salt.

They will invest if they find it more feasible than a jv high stakes on kaveri right now. A jv is never gonna be feasible once we are invested they will just repeat same story as scorpene class subs.

there could also be political reasons like, if current govt fears that engine development can be used a political tool by opposition.
That's actually a good scoring point for political parties make conspiracies out of it funding pvt sector muh corruption.
And I'm getting such vibes foreign lobbies wouldn't mind collaborating with opposition if supposedly jv doesn't happen and as I said in my above mentioned reply a pvt-public lead initiative is taken expect attacks hit jobs on them.
Secondly it's governments responsibility to explain in such a way every common man understands that's we would be spending more on if we don't make on our own. Foreign reliance during war could cause spare shortage. It isn't hard enough to convince even one who doesn't understand anything abt defence.
 
The current gov will fund development once current kaveri proves itself otherwise we would have to solely rely on jv for even basic 4 gen engine of Tejas. Tech would come from there then kaveri would be improved in order to replace f404.
As I said here



That's actually a good scoring point for political parties make conspiracies out of it funding pvt sector muh corruption.
And I'm getting such vibes foreign lobbies wouldn't mind collaborating with opposition if supposedly jv doesn't happen and as I said in my above mentioned reply a pvt-public lead initiative is taken expect attacks hit jobs on them.
Secondly it's governments responsibility to explain in such a way every common man understands that's we would be spending more on if we don't make on our own. Foreign reliance during war could cause spare shortage. It isn't hard enough to convince even one who doesn't understand anything abt defence.
there were rumours that, USMIC was bankrolling congress when they were making noise about rafale deal
 
Without testing infra you cannot do iterative development. You're today's top notch engine one day will become outdated it will require a replacement iterative development is the reason why usa is head from rest of us and who told you once engine is ready there would be no use testing infra ?
A engine is constantly improved for that they need it. For eg f110. So many iterations variants have came up over a period it's being perfected more every next iteration.
People with thinking like you are in the mod is the reason why we are so behind in jet engine arena.
Testing infra will not be used only for few span.
There are some test facilities in usa which are being used since 1950s.
It is not huge waste of resources. You're attitude reflect babus. This critical arena can never be waste of resources. And if that would have been case as you said why would it take us so long everytime to test engine in russia. Even back in 2000s and even this year gtre faced delay.

And by testing facility I don't only means testbeds for testing new engines.
This complex aerospace systems required thorough testing before they are put together. As there are many things to go wrong.

Amen to that.

I've commented on the same before; from 18:11 onwards...

GTRE director talks about begging to get timeslots for testing in Russia.

If people are imagining why Kaveri only gets taken to Russia sporadically, this might be one of the reasons. In the meantime, regional competition doesn't stop and neither does our need for engines. All the while, it takes forever to integrate even a functioning engine onto a fighter.

Within all this entropy, are we supposed to wait for Kaveri to succeed BEFORE we build the testing and certifying infrastructure? Waah bhai waah...


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4OIUB1GCMg
 
I am not sure but HAL only mfg 2nd and 3rd gen TF, that too when materials come from Russ. Pvt players like Azaad Engg, BFL, GOdrej etc have been mfg some components including TF for Japan and RR. I think Kalyani and now Godrej have said before that if Govt comes out of L1, L2 mindset and forms a consorcium with GTRE+4,5 pvt
You're too underestimating hal mate. Ends user agreements are limiting hal from using indigeneous materials for single crystals blades as per contract alloys must come from russia it is not like they don't have the capacity.
They have the capability to produce & use indigeneous SCBs in al31. DMRL has developed SCBs for al31fp. they had developed dms4 nickel based super alloy SCBs,turbine vanes for al31. Initially dms3 was developed but there were some deficiencies which were sorted out and even further improvements lead to dms4 and who actually dmrl went to for this hal koraput. hal used dmrl developed thermal barrier coatings to improve al31 without compromising the agreement Clause. It eventually improved the al31. Not just that the nozzle mtbo was also improved by dmrl. Hal has the capability to manufacture modern SCB.

Just a mere fact kaveri has higher tet than al31.
With ds blades and indigeneous TBCs. The ds blades used in kaveri provides 1050c tolerance along with other means like tbc & cooling it is then improved upto 1450c. Al 31 tet is below 1400c. The f110 mid iteration has tet of 1510c. M88 has 1577c, the f119 has 1650c,F135 has 1960c, Al41 has 1640c, f414epe has 1600c, ej200 1535c notice super cruising engines have tet above/around 1550c

The kaveri now uses dmd4 a directionaly solidified which shares materials with dms4.
Why doesn't they use dms4 ? Who knows maybe dmd4 does the job. after it surely provides tet higher than 1450c tet without latest TBCs available here. Tet was never an issue in kaveri. Given the development we have done in tbc with dms4 kaveri can achieve tet of 1700c easily.
TBCs developments are quite unreported given the developments we have done for hstdv. I will say kaveri can achieve tet of 1700c+. But that would require work staring from very begging and would cost abit. Maybe even major redesigning as kaveri was designed with ds blades. And we don't even have e test facilities yet so again we can't there are tens of reason for it. Even the new fan paired with this new technologies we can develop 5th gen engine today (given infrastructure is approved)
But before that kaveri has to prove itself & the kde too Unless & untill mod babus will not allot funds
It is such a shame we're Just allocating 23k crores for drdo. Mod babus don't understand anything unless and until kaveri is proved no funds till then. That's the reality. Kaveri isn't facing materials problem it just can't initiate new programs and it will have to prove 90s design first to get funds after that they would be making a true low bypass engine with recent techs developed.
Visit pg no 29 of this thread handle named shiro on twitter has provided good info.

There is reason why samir v kamat said we can make 5th gen AMCA engine on our own. Chasing jv could be the reason of no confidence in them from babus system politicians and also drdo desired carbon composites tech along with adaptive cycle.


View: https://twitter.com/ShiroBarks/status/1899837650384863653?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1899837650384863653%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_c10&ref_url=

While with f414 new infrastructure will be brought improving overall manufacturing capability.
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However this are not used in the al31 i suppose they should have had renegotiated it. Or maybe in the process.
players ( add to that MiDhani+ Brahmos+BEL) they can do 110KN engine...
Bel has no job here.
Godrej, midhani , l&t, bharat forge, azad engineering can contribute but they only want to manufacture things while without spending on r&d. This doesn't apply to midhani though they have done descent job.

From ddr
 

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Amen to that.

I've commented on the same before; from 18:11 onwards...

GTRE director talks about begging to get timeslots for testing in Russia.

If people are imagining why Kaveri only gets taken to Russia sporadically, this might be one of the reasons. In the meantime, regional competition doesn't stop and neither does our need for engines. All the while, it takes forever to integrate even a functioning engine onto a fighter.

Within all this entropy, are we supposed to wait for Kaveri to succeed BEFORE we build the testing and certifying infrastructure? Waah bhai waah...
Unfortunately that's what is happening. The babus have no clue and neither do the politicians. I wish I was the defence minister. I would have kicked out all beuro rats babudoms. Would have replaced all of them with technocrats from respective field.


I have subscribed to that channel centre for air power studies
Btw what's you're background
 
Another problem lies here I think this machines aren't mass produced and only used for helicopter engine blades. I might be wrong. Or the issues might have been resolved most likely
The issue was we couldn't mass produce it. However still dmrl is using it for making helicopter blades.


View: https://twitter.com/shreedharsingh9/status/1900953722517442616

View: https://twitter.com/Varun55484761/status/1877573510870217132

View: https://twitter.com/Ray70409890/status/1896932601694478599 this tet number is of raw blade w/o tbc and cooling channels. I have heard dms 4 can with stands 1200c.

View: https://twitter.com/sakthivel_cit93/status/1897288831159951535
Also does the GEF414 deal includes tech transfer for Machining, Brazing , EBPVD /TBC. Or atleast they're willing to sell us ? @Cyclops do u have some insights in this regards
 
Amen to that.

I've commented on the same before; from 18:11 onwards...

GTRE director talks about begging to get timeslots for testing in Russia.

If people are imagining why Kaveri only gets taken to Russia sporadically, this might be one of the reasons. In the meantime, regional competition doesn't stop and neither does our need for engines. All the while, it takes forever to integrate even a functioning engine onto a fighter.

Within all this entropy, are we supposed to wait for Kaveri to succeed BEFORE we build the testing and certifying infrastructure? Waah bhai waah...


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4OIUB1GCMg


What would it take to construct a testbed or two (one for mountain, one for plains)?
 
My interpretation of this is different. Had India put more funding, a fully functional engine would be ready by now.
Had we spend on test facilities we would have had developed kaveri much before.
If we see Metalurgy was never an issue all the issue which faced were vibration and flutter screech, unstable afterburner there was misinfo it throws blade off it wasn't like that the disc would have been vibrating or the blades.
All this issues would have been sorted on time if we would have had found them on time for that you need to find out problems as early as possible fix it sne dagai to tests find out if it works or not.

When we sent kaveri for first time to russia for tests on ftb they found out the 2nd & 3rd stage compressor weren't doing any work at all. They never noticed this issue in our ground based test facilities. Even after they fixed it it took them quite alot of duration to get a slot just to find there problem is fixed or not. Nonetheless most of this issues have been fixed.
 

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