GTRE GTX 35VS Kaveri

[Anants]

Can someone explain me why the hell is Kaveri Bypass ratio so small compared to other 4th gen and 5th gen engines?

Kaveri aint 4th gen its at best 3.5. KDE and its derivative shall be 4 and 4.5. Main issue was they tried to design engine around aircraft Tejas. World around its opposite. You design aircraft around engines. Thus consequently GTRE had tight margins to work with. This design was first conceived at a time when GTRE did not really have access to proper computational fluid dynamics (CFD) tools or could refer to substantial legacy wind-tunnel studies.

DRDO’s Kaveri Engine Lessons and Future Prospects for AMCA – Indian Defence Research Wing

idrw.org

 

[TopWatcher]

You are talking about MK1A. Not MK1.

MKIA

 

[Blademaster]

Why core tech from international partner???

I think it's for the high pressure turbine and the AB section.

 

[Aaj Ka Hero]

Can someone explain me why the hell is Kaveri Bypass ratio so small compared to other 4th gen and 5th gen engines?

Because it needs more raw thrust for indian conditions.
Bypass is there to provide efficiency and cooling. According to me in Indian hot and humid conditions, one need whatever thrust it can to come from afterburner whenever needed. Besides it is flat rate design, it needs to maintain desired thrust.
That's what I presume.

 

[Aaj Ka Hero]

Nope. But a hint - we're Jewing it out.

Saala, that's what GTRE was always against, if foreign OEMs get to design core tech then what Indians are doing? Just money providers.
That Indian CEO of Safran was saying indirectly and sometimes directly too(showing desperation) that India must follow Shakti helicopter engine development model.
This lethargy is fully responsibililty of this Modi and Rajnath government, can't even provide a test bed plane here in India for collecting datas.

 

[Azaad]

Don't know if this slide has been shared here but here goes - GTRE's definition of TF generations. A bit outdated if you ask me in terms of material tech or perhaps we're coming to terms with tech denial & our own inability to develop them .

US already has tech which permits 2300°C which goes into their 6th Gen TF , likely 5.5th Gen TF too in the engine upgradation program of the F-35.

France we're given to understand has broken the 2000°C barrier. I'm sure UK isn't too far behind. Both nations will be fabricating TFs with minimum temperature 2000°C TET.

 

[Azaad]

Saala, that's what GTRE was always against, if foreign OEMs get to design core tech then what Indians are doing? Just money providers.
That Indian CEO of Safran was saying indirectly and sometimes directly too(showing desperation) that India must follow Shakti helicopter engine development model.
This lethargy is fully responsibililty of this Modi and Rajnath government, can't even provide a test bed plane here in India for collecting datas.

The choice is stark. We either spend some 10 years at the very minimum realising this tech on a shoe string budget & delay the already delayed AMCA project or pay up get the technology we desire & move ahead with our plans .

The blame lies squarely with the Modi administration more than previous ones for not funding the GTRE adequately to realise tech they couldn't in previous attempts funding the program thru drip feed like previous administrations have done all along including this one .

Alternatively we learn lessons , get the JV quickly , invest in test facilities , identify tech like material tech beyond 2000°C which incidentally we aren't getting thru this JV too & we won't get from any JV , fund those attempts adequately , monitor it closely for progress , such that when we launch the 6th Gen FA program which we should before the end of the decade we utilise the learnings of the forthcoming JV marry it into our own realisation of tech thru these endeavours & develop our own 6th Gen TF instead of moving around the world for another JV for the TF.

 

[pipebomb]

Kaveri DTE derived engine shall be 45/74 kn engine. The next iteration presumably with required "ToT" from GE shall give you GE404 IN level of thrust but with slightly more weight than GE404. Then there are quite bold and lofty plans of 5th Gen engines of 100+kn.

This rough summary of SJha's IAH which i understood from quick staggered listening.

*f414 ?

 

[Asmodeus]

The blame lies squarely with the Modi administration more than previous ones for not funding the GTRE adequately to realise tech they couldn't in previous attempts funding the program thru drip feed like previous administrations have done all along including this one .

I won't say that.. I have read some committee reports that were given between 2012 and 2014. It highlighted the utter lack of strategic vision in committee members. You can even say it migh be a sabotage. the conclusions of report are so bold yet so misleading. Modi govt cannot work in a vaccume, they will always take feedback from previous personnel or expert for the lack of better word for making their policies. Now they are realising the mistakes after GE kicking them right where it hurts. Also RM turtle may not be so keen on such projects because he is a old school politician and his focus is more on western neighbours rather than outside world.

 

[Azaad]

I won't say that.. I have read some committee reports that were given between 2012 and 2014. It highlighted the utter lack of strategic vision in committee members. You can even say it migh be a sabotage. the conclusions of report are so bold yet so misleading. Modi govt cannot work in a vaccume, they will always take feedback from previous personnel or expert for the lack of better word for making their policies. Now they are realising the mistakes after GE kicking them right where it hurts. Also RM turtle may not be so keen on such projects because he is a old school politician and his focus is more on western neighbours rather than outside world.

The very fact this project wasn't provided Mission Mode status under the PMO says alot about the GoI's priorities - previous ones as well as this one. I believe the upcoming JV would be so though it isn't confirmed news.

RoK had just embarked on their own indigenous TF program & right off the bat they declared it a MM project.

What genius does it take to understand such projects need monitoring at the highest level apart from loosening your purse strings if we hope to succeed much like our space & nuclear programs - both for civil & military usage or a project like AMCA is going to be .

 

[Aaj Ka Hero]

View: https://youtu.be/nqDiKrEzQaU?si=NW7m36TtgA4X8nve

 

[high_IQ_bharatiya_sainik]

What exactly is the point you wish to make ? I'm confused. You seem to be all over the place from expressing apprehensions on the future of the Kaveri to the origins of the Kaveri.

You need to re-evaluate your comprehension skills buddy. Don't bend the conversation around to fit your point. A perfect gaslighter, be humble when corrected and acknowledge if your point has been logically countered.

 

[Suryavanshi]

Cleared the thread.

Please have the decency to move to chit chat thread once things get personal.

Use ignore button when the other is too insufferable.

If you are at a point where you cannot put up with a member than ignore button is your friend.

Rest please use chit chat thread for any further query.

 

[BON PLAN]

If we successfully manage to certify the Kaveri AFB version in a few years , we'd probably go down in history as the first & by a long shot the only nation to have done it in < 1 billion USD.

Time is money, money is time.
I hope you a full success, but at the end you will have an 1980+ tech engine ready in the late 2020, early 2030.
Was it a good deal to break the funds and increase lead time? not sure as you have to purchase foreign engines as a stop gap (F404 and F414).

 

[Azaad]

Time is money, money is time.
I hope you a full success, but at the end you will have an 1980+ tech engine ready in the late 2020, early 2030.
Was it a good deal to break the funds and increase lead time? not sure as you have to purchase foreign engines as a stop gap (F404 and F414).

You speak with the luxury of having the industrial depth in that particular sector. May I ask the reason France doesn't have a semi conductor fab or an accompanying fabless design ecosystem ? You don't hear much about France when discussions of anything related to SMC come up do you ?

Supposing tomorrow the government decided you need to get into the SMC space in a big way & in keeping with France's stated policy on sovereignty do everything in house , how long do you think you'd take to accomplish it particularly when the industrial depth & scientific achievements of France in this field has not been anything significant. Then there's the not so small consideration of money to be invested which certainly can't be called small change.

Talk is cheap . When you get into a sector where your industrial bandwidth is shaky & you've to deliver in a time bound manner is when your feet hit the ground & suddenly everything appears like a huge mountain to surmount.

 

[DancingPeacock]

Iam more worried about Machinery like those EBM for Cooling Channels and EBPVD for Coatings. Even if we are able to make Jet Engines- Yours truly Unkil Sam would induce shadow constraints into importing them en masse to make hundreds of them every year. There is also OEM support need in case things break down which they will.

It is a surprise that the Shakti Engines in Dhruv are using Indigenous EBPVD Machines. It comes as a surprise because haramkhor penny pinchers would rather import 10x pricey Machinery than making it at home. I think there were difficulties into acquiring them and hence they built their own.

 

[Suryavanshi]

IISC had floated a RFQ for EBPVD back in 2016 but going by the current situation I don't think they procured it.

 

[vicky]

View: https://youtu.be/WEOgWsNbYsI?si=cAzaonm-_cuRLL1C