IAF's ISTAR Aircraft.

[Azaad]

Project first announced in 2017 . Expected to tie up with Raytheon . Then it goes into the Cold Storage for a few years.

A few years back news surfaces DRDO would go solo without Raytheon's assistance. Project goes cold once again.

GoI wakes up now following Operation Sindoor. We go through the whole 9 yards once again. MoD issues AoN . CCS clears the project. RFP to be issued . Winner is declared . CCS clears procurement. Agreement signed. Work begins. I'd be very surprised if we get the ISTARs by 2030. The best part's yet to come.

As of now AAMs have reached distances of 300 kms . By the time these ISTARs come into service we'd have AAMs with ranges of 5-600 kms.

And by the time it'd be time to retire these systems after 20 years of service assuming we don't lose them in a conflict , it's not inconceivable we'd see AAMs with ranges of 1000 kms in service.

That's how fast out defence ecosystem & MoD / GoI moves.

Natural consequence of getting UPSC candidates whose primary qualifications are B.A in English Literature ( Hons ) from St Stephen's as Defence Secretary ( advantage of having such a defence secretary is grammatically correct reports & memos in English two notches down from what Chettanova uses ) who'd have served in Ministry of Agriculture & Dairy before the stint in the Defence Ministry & in Ministry of Food Processing before that while the Dhoti would usually have started his career as Sarpanch .

 

[Captscooby]

For most modern guided bombs.
They just need target acquisition data/ initial target lock( which istar can provide via datalink), like gps guided, ins, IR/EO unit on bomb for guidance.

Some do.

Like laser guided.
Now they follow, so whichever platform( can even be a team of humans on ground lasing the target, but most of the time its fighter jet with laser designator lasing the target when these bombs are used) is lasing the target will guide the bomb.
But there usage has been decreasing more and more In modern conflicts.
As it requires fighter to loiter near target area, which puts the fighter jet under lot of risk.
But with ucav becoming common, laser guided bombs can make a small comeback.


Then there are man in the loop weapons.
Basically weapon/bomb sends the sensor data/feed( can also be camera feed, infrared imagery etc) back to the fighter jet, and pilot manually guides the weapons using that data in real time. But they are outdated, going extinct in the future.

Now you wouldn't wanna make a istar platform actually loiter and guide the weapons and put it at harms way , it's an expensive, large rcs and realtively slow platform.
But it can and will provide initial target lock directly to fire and forget bombs/stand off munitions or to fighter jets and command centres when needed.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3EtEYE8QWE

From 2.30 minutes

 

[randombully]

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3EtEYE8QWE

From 2.30 minutes

Yeah? So what are you trying to relay?

 

[Chakuntilal]

Project first announced in 2017 . Expected to tie up with Raytheon . Then it goes into the Cold Storage for a few years.

A few years back news surfaces DRDO would go solo without Raytheon's assistance. Project goes cold once again.

GoI wakes up now following Operation Sindoor. We go through the whole 9 yards once again. MoD issues AoN . CCS clears the project. RFP to be issued . Winner is declared . CCS clears procurement. Agreement signed. Work begins. I'd be very surprised if we get the ISTARs by 2030. The best part's yet to come.

As of now AAMs have reached distances of 300 kms . By the time these ISTARs come into service we'd have AAMs with ranges of 5-600 kms.

And by the time it'd be time to retire these systems after 20 years of service assuming we don't lose them in a conflict , it's not inconceivable we'd see AAMs with ranges of 1000 kms in service.

That's how fast out defence ecosystem & MoD / GoI moves.

Natural consequence of getting UPSC candidates whose primary qualifications are B.A in English Literature ( Hons ) from St Stephen's as Defence Secretary ( advantage of having such a defence secretary is grammatically correct reports & memos in English two notches down from what Chettanova uses ) who'd have served in Ministry of Agriculture & Dairy before the stint in the Defence Ministry & in Ministry of Food Processing before that while the Dhoti would usually have started his career as Sarpanch .

The last two defence secretaries were engineering graduates and the current one is an economics graduate. Practically 70 percent Joint Secretary and above bureaucrats in the central government are engineers by qualifications. Ab aur kitne engineers chahiye bhai ? Aur bhi log hote hain duniya mein such as CAs, Economists, Agricultural Scientists, Statisticians - aap engineer se root canal filing karate ho aur engineer se tax returns bharwa ke file karate ho. Engineers se alawa bhi log hi duniya mein.

 

[Sanglamorre]

Project first announced in 2017 . Expected to tie up with Raytheon . Then it goes into the Cold Storage for a few years.

A few years back news surfaces DRDO would go solo without Raytheon's assistance. Project goes cold once again.

GoI wakes up now following Operation Sindoor. We go through the whole 9 yards once again. MoD issues AoN . CCS clears the project. RFP to be issued . Winner is declared . CCS clears procurement. Agreement signed. Work begins. I'd be very surprised if we get the ISTARs by 2030. The best part's yet to come.

As of now AAMs have reached distances of 300 kms . By the time these ISTARs come into service we'd have AAMs with ranges of 5-600 kms.

And by the time it'd be time to retire these systems after 20 years of service assuming we don't lose them in a conflict , it's not inconceivable we'd see AAMs with ranges of 1000 kms in service.

That's how fast out defence ecosystem & MoD / GoI moves.

Natural consequence of getting UPSC candidates whose primary qualifications are B.A in English Literature ( Hons ) from St Stephen's as Defence Secretary ( advantage of having such a defence secretary is grammatically correct reports & memos in English two notches down from what Chettanova uses ) who'd have served in Ministry of Agriculture & Dairy before the stint in the Defence Ministry & in Ministry of Food Processing before that while the Dhoti would usually have started his career as Sarpanch .

Who would even be fit for roles like these?

It isn't a discipline taught in schools that you stick the guy with the best scores in it, like an Agri Sci guy to dept of Agriculture.

This isn't a problem at the project management level. The actual science is being done by actual R&D guys.

This is a problem with the beureucratic system we have. We need to reform it completely.

 

[truthsoldier]

Who would even be fit for roles like these?

It isn't a discipline taught in schools that you stick the guy with the best scores in it, like an Agri Sci guy to dept of Agriculture.

This isn't a problem at the project management level. The actual science is being done by actual R&D guys.

This is a problem with the beureucratic system we have. We need to reform it completely.

Need to have dedicated cadre to exclusively manage ministry of Defence or have more military and DRDO officials on deputation at mid to senior levels

 

[Azaad]

Who would even be fit for roles like these?

It isn't a discipline taught in schools that you stick the guy with the best scores in it, like an Agri Sci guy to dept of Agriculture.

This isn't a problem at the project management level. The actual science is being done by actual R&D guys.

This is a problem with the beureucratic system we have. We need to reform it completely.

Who would fit into it ? Obviously people who've graduated from a National Defence University which we haven't set up in spite of a long standing demand.

You need a specialised bureaucracy for not just defence but a whole lot of ministries just like you've the IFS for our diplomatic corps.

You don't get the additional secretary for animal husbandry to become the additional secretary in the MEA handling the Far Eastern Desk do you ?

So why do you have the same secretary transferred from animal husbandry to defence ?

All our BA Hons in Eng Literature should be good enough for is to handle the District Collector's post though why exactly do we have that position is still a mystery since the chappie holding that post is no longer responsible for revenue collection from peasants anymore like in the British Raj.

 

[Azaad]

The last two defence secretaries were engineering graduates and the current one is an economics graduate. Practically 70 percent Joint Secretary and above bureaucrats in the central government are engineers by qualifications. Ab aur kitne engineers chahiye bhai ? Aur bhi log hote hain duniya mein such as CAs, Economists, Agricultural Scientists, Statisticians -

Answered this in the previous post.

aap engineer se root canal filing karate ho aur engineer se tax returns bharwa ke file karate ho. Engineers se alawa bhi log hi duniya mein.

Toh CA ko ministry of finance ya ministry of commerce mein hona chahiye. Economic graduates ko bhi wahi Ministry shobha dete hain.

Statisticians ki zaroorat har ministry ko hain lekin uske liye alag cadre hona chahiye theekh waise jaise ki IT ka hona chahiye kyonki har ministry ko IT / AI / ML ki zaroorat padne wali hain.

 

[Sanglamorre]

Who would fit into it ? Obviously people who've graduated from a National Defence University which we haven't set up in spite of a long standing demand.

You need a specialised bureaucracy for not just defence but a whole lot of ministries just like you've the IFS for our diplomatic corps.

You don't get the additional secretary for animal husbandry to become the additional secretary in the MEA handling the Far Eastern Desk do you ?

So why do you have the same secretary transferred from animal husbandry to defence ?

All our BA Hons in Eng Literature should be good enough for is to handle the District Collector's post though why exactly do we have that position is still a mystery since the chappie holding that post is no longer responsible for revenue collection from peasants anymore like in the British Raj.

Agreed with you about the suggestion of specialised schools for these departments.

We do really really need a dedicated Defence University that pipelines students so inclined into specialized roles early on.

 

[vin pahadi (kumauni)]

Yeah? So what are you trying to relay?

offtopic question:- we r planning to make cats warrior with 1-2 SAAW missiles in its internal weapon bays. beside this we will equip two WVR missiles ASRAAM or our desi version WVR missile under its wings. Isnt these two WVR missiles increase its RCS nd reduce its stealth? or these two missiles didnt compromise its stealth too much. thnx

 

[snakeeyes07]

offtopic question:- we r planning to make cats warrior with 1-2 SAAW missiles in its internal weapon bays. beside this we will equip two WVR missiles ASRAAM or our desi version WVR missile under its wings. Isnt these two WVR missiles increase its RCS nd reduce its stealth? or these two missiles didnt compromise its stealth too much. thnx

Being able to carry 2 Astra mk1/mk2 will be a game changer for CATS Warrior. Maybe they can include this capability as development and flight testing is being done.

It is essentially giving additional range to BVRs though there is a initial launch velocity penalty compared to fighter.

 

[vin pahadi (kumauni)]

Being able to carry 2 Astra mk1/mk2 will be a game changer for CATS Warrior. Maybe they can include this capability as development and flight testing is being done.

It is essentially giving additional range to BVRs though there is a initial launch velocity penalty compared to fighter.

i dont think cats warrior will carry any RF seeker BVR missiles. coz radio frequency bvr missiles inbuild seekers can only track for approx 10-20 km. it needs other guidance provider for its 100+ km range. which can be provided with aircrafts nd AWACS (our bvr missiles hvnt that capability now). i dont think cats warrior will equip any radars on its nose.
but in case of WVR missiles like ASRAAM, they hv inbuilt infrared seekers. which can track targets to 50+ km range. thats why i think in cats warrior we will deploy WVR (with in visual range) missiles. these missiles also helpful in tejas mark 1 nd 1a, coz tejas mark 1 nd 1a dont hv infrared sensor.

 

[FalconSlayers]

Wasn't TATA fielding its own High Alt recon aircraft design with a German aircraft? What happened to that? I would guess they are going to run simultaneously.

It's not long range, high endurance. Just a cheaper option, which they apparently have made an unmanned version of.


View: https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1931981534577201424

Project first announced in 2017 . Expected to tie up with Raytheon . Then it goes into the Cold Storage for a few years.

A few years back news surfaces DRDO would go solo without Raytheon's assistance. Project goes cold once again.

GoI wakes up now following Operation Sindoor. We go through the whole 9 yards once again. MoD issues AoN . CCS clears the project. RFP to be issued . Winner is declared . CCS clears procurement. Agreement signed. Work begins. I'd be very surprised if we get the ISTARs by 2030. The best part's yet to come.

As of now AAMs have reached distances of 300 kms . By the time these ISTARs come into service we'd have AAMs with ranges of 5-600 kms.

And by the time it'd be time to retire these systems after 20 years of service assuming we don't lose them in a conflict , it's not inconceivable we'd see AAMs with ranges of 1000 kms in service.

That's how fast out defence ecosystem & MoD / GoI moves.

Natural consequence of getting UPSC candidates whose primary qualifications are B.A in English Literature ( Hons ) from St Stephen's as Defence Secretary ( advantage of having such a defence secretary is grammatically correct reports & memos in English two notches down from what Chettanova uses ) who'd have served in Ministry of Agriculture & Dairy before the stint in the Defence Ministry & in Ministry of Food Processing before that while the Dhoti would usually have started his career as Sarpanch .

lol in that case entire aerial warfare gets obsolete. Why even field airforces then?

 

[ashes]

offtopic question:- we r planning to make cats warrior with 1-2 SAAW missiles in its internal weapon bays. beside this we will equip two WVR missiles ASRAAM or our desi version WVR missile under its wings. Isnt these two WVR missiles increase its RCS nd reduce its stealth? or these two missiles didnt compromise its stealth too much. thnx

What's our desi alternative? Astra IR , ngccm ? Plz tell

 

[ashes]

offtopic question:- we r planning to make cats warrior with 1-2 SAAW missiles in its internal weapon bays. beside this we will equip two WVR missiles ASRAAM or our desi version WVR missile under its wings. Isnt these two WVR missiles increase its RCS nd reduce its stealth? or these two missiles didnt compromise its stealth too much. thnx

Bhai I am asking which is our desi alternative to asraam ?

 

[vin pahadi (kumauni)]

What's our desi alternative? Astra IR , ngccm ? Plz

i think we r making our own desi ASRAAM.....which will called astra 4 or NGCCM. we see that in cats warrior model. if its ASRAAM, then why they name it NGCCM.

 

[snakeeyes07]

i dont think cats warrior will carry any RF seeker BVR missiles. coz radio frequency bvr missiles inbuild seekers can only track for approx 10-20 km. it needs other guidance provider for its 100+ km range. which can be provided with aircrafts nd AWACS (our bvr missiles hvnt that capability now). i dont think cats warrior will equip any radars on its nose.
but in case of WVR missiles like ASRAAM, they hv inbuilt infrared seekers. which can track targets to 50+ km range. thats why i think in cats warrior we will deploy WVR (with in visual range) missiles. these missiles also helpful in tejas mark 1 nd 1a, coz tejas mark 1 nd 1a dont hv infrared sensor.

CATS Warrior doesn't need FCR, it's master (SU30MKI or LCA) will give the launch command and guide the BVR via datalink.

 

[Azaad]

It's not long range, high endurance. Just a cheaper option, which they apparently have made an unmanned version of.


View: https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1931981534577201424

lol in that case entire aerial warfare gets obsolete. Why even field airforces then?

ISTAR is supposed to fly in close proximity to the border . Try doing that with both Paxtan & especially China though with the Himalayas in between & the mountainous terrain I don't know how effective will the ISTARs be even otherwise.

There's a reason both the UK retired them early from service with the US following suit a couple of years ago though the latter used the JSTARS for a good 35 years & is now relying on a radically different approach after initially thinking of a JSTARS + program

 

[Chakuntilal]

Answered this in the previous post.


Toh CA ko ministry of finance ya ministry of commerce mein hona chahiye. Economic graduates ko bhi wahi Ministry shobha dete hain.

Statisticians ki zaroorat har ministry ko hain lekin uske liye alag cadre hona chahiye theekh waise jaise ki IT ka hona chahiye kyonki har ministry ko IT / AI / ML ki zaroorat padne wali hain.

bhai - economics ke liye Indian Economic Service hai, Statistics ke liye Indian Statistical Service hai, ek Indian Telecom Service bhi hai aur Indian Cost Work Accounts Service bhi hai, sab service hai par sab idhar udhar bhej diye jaate hai ya inn services ke so called technocrats apne attitude aur thinking mein IAS se bhi zyada babugiri karte hai- the problem is the whole attitude our society has towards government service. Our bureaucracy is a toxic mixture of a rent seeking colonial civil service and an all powerful socialist hegemon - imagine dono ke mishran se kya paida hota hai - Indian bureaucracy

 

[Azaad]

bhai - economics ke liye Indian Economic Service hai, Statistics ke liye Indian Statistical Service hai, ek Indian Telecom Service bhi hai aur Indian Cost Work Accounts Service bhi hai, sab service hai par sab idhar udhar bhej diye jaate hai ya inn services ke so called technocrats apne attitude aur thinking mein IAS se bhi zyada babugiri karte hai- the problem is the whole attitude our society has towards government service. Our bureaucracy is a toxic mixture of a rent seeking colonial civil service and an all powerful socialist hegemon - imagine dono ke mishran se kya paida hota hai - Indian bureaucracy

Right now the IAS dominates the civil services . The rest play second fiddle. The need of the hour is specialised services not general ones though it's the generalists like the IAS which rules the roost.

As regards circulating people of different services across ministries it's done to broaden exposure or in cases of the IES or ISS are an essential part of every ministry without which policies can't be made.

Reforms are an ongoing process . It never ceases or should never otherwise stasis & true bureaucracy sets in like in our case.

Anyway will close the issue here. The thread is being de railed