IAF's Sukhoi Su-30MKI

[Blademaster]

primarily because Sukhoi's life service costs are astronomical. Engine replacement, spares and fuel consumption of one squadron of Su30s is roughly equal to 2.5 squadrons of Tejas.

Not comparing them to Tejas but to other fighters that are in the MFRA competition such as Rafale eurofighter and f-15s.

 

[aim120]

Exactly, are the IAF babus not watching the war between Russia & Ukraine. The fighter jets that Russia is using most often are:
SU 35S <multi role>
SU 34M <as a bomb truck>
SU 25 <ground attack>
SU 57 <sparingly>
They have SU 30SM2, Mig 29, etc, but none of those are being used. I would rather have IAF take a closer look at SU 35S (apparently, the newer ones delivered to the Russian Air Force have gotten upgraded based on learnings on the battlefield. There is no light, medium, or heavy here. This is real war - everything is heavy.

Su30 of russia doesn't have the litening pod like the MKI. While the Su34 has the TV and IR opticals. SU34 also has a lower RCS than all other SU 27 derivatives including SU30.

While the SU35 has better thrust and a more powerful radar and lower RCS than SU30. It can stay in air for longer duration.

Russia has used the SU30, one of which was used to take out the patriot battery. Russian Navy also used the SU30 to take out several ukraine drones. Most of SU30 missions are flown by Russian Naval aviation.

 

[DumbPilot]

primarily because Sukhoi's life service costs are astronomical. Engine replacement, spares and fuel consumption of one squadron of Su30s is roughly equal to 2.5 squadrons of Tejas.

All the propulsion guys in DRDO/HAL probably tired of running MTBF simulations on the AL-31Fs

 

[r8rdarklord]

Su30 of russia doesn't have the litening pod like the MKI. While the Su34 has the TV and IR opticals. SU34 also has a lower RCS than all other SU 27 derivatives including SU30.

While the SU35 has better thrust and a more powerful radar and lower RCS than SU30. It can stay in air for longer duration.

Russia has used the SU30, one of which was used to take out the patriot battery. Russian Navy also used the SU30 to take out several ukraine drones. Most of SU30 missions are flown by Russian Naval aviation.

There have been many learnings from the Ukraine war and changes have been made to both SU 34M & SU 35s. The new fighter jets are being delivered to Russian Air Force with enhancements. The Su-35's high composite airframe, & absence of canards reduces its radar cross section to be 1/3rd of the flanker.

 

[r8rdarklord]

I don't understand why we are not getting more MKIs to boost up the squadron numbers. With the Sukhoi Super upgrade, we don't need the MFRA program. Nearly everything is 90-100% made in India including the engines and integration of Indian made missiles which is more than can be said for the MFRA program.

Get more SU 35s they are superior to MKIs.

 

[E-195]

The Indian Ministry of Defence (MoD) has contracted state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) to produce 12 Su-30MKI fighter jets for the Indian Air Force.

The 135-billion rupee ($1.5 billion) contract is an effort to make up for losses.

The sanctioned strength of the Su-30 fleet is 272 aircraft but only 259 are in service.

“The supply of these aircraft would enhance the operational capability of the Indian Air Force and strengthen defence preparedness of the country,” the MoD stated in a press release.

HAL will manufacture the Russian-origin aircraft at its Nashik division with over 62.6 percent indigenous content. The aircraft are license-produced in India.

‘Super’ Sukhoi Upgrade​

An Indian-specific variant of the Russian Su-30, the Su-30MKI was inducted into the Indian Air Force in 2002.

The twin-engine aircraft has a takeoff weight of 38,800 kilograms (85,539 pounds) and a payload capacity of over 8 tons, including air-to-air missiles, air-to-surface missiles, and anti-ship missiles.

Earlier this year, an approximately $7-billion upgrade was approved by the government for 84 Su-30MKIs, including new avionics and radars in the initial phase, followed by flight control systems.

The upgrades will be carried out by HAL over the next 15 years with the help of Indian industry.

Meanwhile, the government signed a 260-billion rupee ($3.1 billion) deal with HAL in September for the supply of 240 AL-31FP engines for the aircraft.

Unlike the upgrade approval, the engine deal is more of a sustainment effort to keep the aircraft flying over the next few decades.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzX3iYpci-s&t=27s

India Orders 12 Locally-Built Su-30MKI Jets for $1.5 Billion

The Indian government has contracted state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited to produce 12 Su-30MKI fighter jets for the Indian Air Force.

thedefensepost.com

 

[r8rdarklord]

"The upgrades will be carried out by HAL over the next 15 years with the help of Indian industry". 15 years for upgrades of 85 fighter jets. Amazing! HAL engineering is beyond pathetic. Lockheed Martin is upgrading the 85 Greek F16s to Blk 70/72 standard in 4 years.

 

[Blademaster]

"The upgrades will be carried out by HAL over the next 15 years with the help of Indian industry". 15 years for upgrades of 85 fighter jets. Amazing! HAL engineering is beyond pathetic. Lockheed Martin is upgrading the 85 Greek F16s to Blk 70/72 standard in 4 years.

6 planes a year????? Geez. HAL is so fricking inefficient!!! At this rate, PLAAF will have a brand new 5th generation fleet in the thousands while IAF only has a couple hundred birds.

Heads need to roll.

 

[GaudaNaresh]

6 planes a year????? Geez. HAL is so fricking inefficient!!! At this rate, PLAAF will have a brand new 5th generation fleet in the thousands while IAF only has a couple hundred birds.

Heads need to roll.

heads rolling se kuch nahi hoga.
PLAAF and USAF are basically Ford and GM in infrastructure. We are basically jaguar's infrastructure ( but we dont make jaguars, we make marutis). You cant expect Jag to compete with Ford or GM's volume. Same applies here. HAL is a tiny player in manufacturing. HAL's main job/mandate is to be like Skunkworks - it does R&D, it develops prototype but we decided that no, Skunkwork must also be regular serial producer like Boeing or L&M and we must also have volume of Boeing or L&M. Which is absurd to begin with.

 

[r8rdarklord]

heads rolling se kuch nahi hoga.
PLAAF and USAF are basically Ford and GM in infrastructure. We are basically jaguar's infrastructure ( but we dont make jaguars, we make marutis). You cant expect Jag to compete with Ford or GM's volume. Same applies here. HAL is a tiny player in manufacturing. HAL's main job/mandate is to be like Skunkworks - it does R&D, it develops prototype but we decided that no, Skunkwork must also be regular serial producer like Boeing or L&M and we must also have volume of Boeing or L&M. Which is absurd to begin with.

HAL operates under the false assurance that all defense fighter jet products is going to come to them. This time one should ditch HAL give the project to one or many business houses, establish a JV with Sukhoi, and have them manufacture SU 35s in collaboration. HAL executives will cry maybe even plead to political parties to intervene. However, if the Govt. is strict and adheres to its decision. We will have a competitor to HAL that has reasons to deliver stuff on time.

 

[GaudaNaresh]

HAL operates under the false assurance that all defense fighter jet products is going to come to them. This time one should ditch HAL give the project to one or many business houses, establish a JV with Sukhoi, and have them manufacture SU 35s in collaboration. HAL executives will cry maybe even plead to political parties to intervene. However, if the Govt. is strict and adheres to its decision. We will have a competitor to HAL that has reasons to deliver stuff on time.

Yes i agree and that may be the situation couple of years down the road with HAL.
So far HAL has made good excuses on why they havent delivered decent volume.first it was inadequate production lines ( legit reason from operations pov), which took time to fix, then it was no GE engines -which well they are right on and can sit down twiddling their thumbs but we should soon see how good HAL is in delivery coz if Engine is only kakab me haddi, then even production line of 18/yr jet capacity that HAL claims to have should easily turn in at least 24+ in its first year from just clearing backlog of engine fitting and good to roll off ( takes few hours per plane fyi in refit bay). Once GE's engines show up, it will be 'karo ya maro' for HAL and its production desires.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

HAL operates under the false assurance that all defense fighter jet products is going to come to them. This time one should ditch HAL give the project to one or many business houses, establish a JV with Sukhoi, and have them manufacture SU 35s in collaboration. HAL executives will cry maybe even plead to political parties to intervene. However, if the Govt. is strict and adheres to its decision. We will have a competitor to HAL that has reasons to deliver stuff on time.

I'm not against privatization but there are many challenges in our country, especially with some big private firms:
- They care primarily about profit, not national security.
- Cost will increase bcoz private employees get or try to get more salary than govt. employees. It is capitalist system.
- Making unclassified sub-systems is fine but critical/secret stuff could leak more compared to govt. units.
- Will these firms agree to be under security of CISF or army, or will they opt for their own private security which mean more chances of leaks, espionage & corruption.
- These firms, at least some, have some political inclination. They may not cooperate properly. Some parties want us to keep importing rather than develop our industrial ecosystem.
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There are many forums like this but govt. doesn't care obviously. So what we citizens need is a secured formal official online portal where citizens can anonymously interface with MoD/DoD & ask about progress(unclassified) like RTI (Right To Information) & also give suggestions to govt. But it should be managed in such way that ot cannot be manipulated or shut down.
The current talk shows, podcasts by news channels & journalists are either appeasing the govt. or they just chit-chat like time pass with their individual opinions. They don't dare point mistakes & express dissatisfaction for the fear of getting targeted in various ways.
There is a new Youtube channel called "Bharat Shakti" hosted by journalist Mr. Nitin Gokhale who visits private startups & makes videos on them. Other old journalists have either become news anchors like Vishnu Som, some do podcasts like Shiv Aroor.
NOTE: I'm just another common citizen with no connection to any media house, individual channel/website, political party, defence firm, govt. body, etc.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

I was aware of 12 AAMs on Su-3X but this desk model shows some country's variant with dual rack launchers holding total 22 AAMs

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

I was aware of 12 AAMs on Su-3X but this desk model shows some country's variant with dual rack launchers holding total 22 AAMs

View attachment 19526

Analysing this config, the MTOW of Su-30MKI is 38.8 tons, empty weight is 18.4 tons, max fuel is 9.64 tons, so total external load is 38.8-(18.4+9.64) = 10.76 tons.
Astr-1,2 AAMs weigh 154 Kg, so 16 BVR-AAMs = 2,464 Kg
R-73 IR-CCM weighs 105 Kg, so 6 CCMs = 630 Kg
So 22 total AAMs weigh 3.1 tons, 7.6 tons still below MTOW.
But such a jet will always have to operate outside the NEZ (No Escape Zone) of enemy missile. The enemy jet also have to be kept far. Loss of a jet in this config means many AAMs also lost w/o firing.
The military have their own version of videogame like simulations, similar to what we see on DCS for example. Many times by use of good tactics BVR-AAMs miss their targets. So just to kill 1 tactical intelligent target many repeated attempts/AAMs could be required. This creates the debate of how many AAMs could be carried on a jet of any class.

MISSILE TRUCK concept is being talked about globally, which can fire AAMs in passive mode getting target coordinates via data-link.
We are already outnumbered by China. I hope we won't face saturation attack.
Although some people say that more than 8 AAMs is not required for heavy jet but Su-30MKI & many other Su-3X around world have been seen with full load of 12 AAMs but single pylon rack.


We are deveoping dual rack launcher for AAMs for Tejas M1A & Mk2 MWF, we seem to be developing dual rack launcher for SAAW bombs on MKI too.


So i was wondering if Super Sukhoi upgrade can include dual rack launcher for AAMs also. I'm not saying that MKI needs 22 AAMs but how much we should load it to face larger Chinese group & engage tactically w/o merge/dogfight, SURVIVE & RETURN TO BASE.
NOTE: I request members not to mention what IAF thinks, this is not IAF/DoD site So don't worry even if you differ with them. This is just time pass. Relax & chill.