Indian Air Force: News & Discussions

[johny_baba]

General thread to discuss everything about the Indian Air Force

 

[fire starter]

 

[Bigshot]

Foxbat fury: When IAF MiG-25s flew unchallenged over Islamabad

When India’s “Foxbat” The Uncatchable MiG-25 Soared Over Pakistan – Indian Defence Research Wing

idrw.org

 

[Neil (नील/Нил)]

IAF's transport, tanker and AWAC fleet in its current state is not upto the mark. In it's current state, we can easily tackle the PAF but against PLAAF, we won't have it easy, let alone PLAAF + PAF together combined.

In transport fleet, the main work horses are C-17, C-130, il-76s. Currently we operate 11 C-17s, 17 il-76s, 12 C-130s. I still wish that we would have ordered additional C-17s because the C-17s have proven time and again to be the better option against the Russian il-76 because of better carrying capacity, better range, better availability and cheaper per hour flying costs and cheaper maintenance.

Instead of 11 C-17s, we should have maintained a fleet of at least 15-20, or even 25 C-17s. The same is with the C-130 too. In Joint Operations between the Airforce and Army, the C-130s prove to be very important assets. If any additional procurement of C-17s were possible then it would ease the stress on the Ilyushin fleet and we possibly might retire some of the Il-76s too because it's simply not worth having so many when you a C-17 can offer almost 50% more performance than the il-76.

Our AWAC fleet is also lacking. We have just 6 AWACS in operational service ready to be deployed. 3 Netra Mk-1 and 3 Israeli Phalcon AWACS. I think DRDO and IAF is currently working on development of a next generation Netra Mk-2 which will be mounted on an Airbus aircraft body and 6 such aircraft will be procured so 6 AWACS currently in service + six more AWACS in the coming years will increase our fleet to 12 AWACs which is a good number.

Still I feel like the C-17s were a lost opportunity, and we could have procured more albeit had we placed an order for more, and before the production line closed but yeah, that is the competency of the Indian defence establishment.

 

[Neil (नील/Нил)]

IAF MiG-29, MiG-21, BAE Hawk, LCA Tejas, Naval LCA, Su-30MKI, C-130, US Navy P-8 "Poseidon". HAL Rudra, Mil Mi-24, Mi-17, Dassault Falcon 8X and Dassault Falcon 2000.

 

[Spitfire IX]

IAF's transport, tanker and AWAC fleet in its current state is not upto the mark. In it's current state, we can easily tackle the PAF but against PLAAF, we won't have it easy, let alone PLAAF + PAF together combined.

In transport fleet, the main work horses are C-17, C-130, il-76s. Currently we operate 11 C-17s, 17 il-76s, 12 C-130s. I still wish that we would have ordered additional C-17s because the C-17s have proven time and again to be the better option against the Russian il-76 because of better carrying capacity, better range, better availability and cheaper per hour flying costs and cheaper maintenance.

Instead of 11 C-17s, we should have maintained a fleet of at least 15-20, or even 25 C-17s. The same is with the C-130 too. In Joint Operations between the Airforce and Army, the C-130s prove to be very important assets. If any additional procurement of C-17s were possible then it would ease the stress on the Ilyushin fleet and we possibly might retire some of the Il-76s too because it's simply not worth having so many when you a C-17 can offer almost 50% more performance than the il-76.

Our AWAC fleet is also lacking. We have just 6 AWACS in operational service ready to be deployed. 3 Netra Mk-1 and 3 Israeli Phalcon AWACS. I think DRDO and IAF is currently working on development of a next generation Netra Mk-2 which will be mounted on an Airbus aircraft body and 6 such aircraft will be procured so 6 AWACS currently in service + six more AWACS in the coming years will increase our fleet to 12 AWACs which is a good number.

Still I feel like the C-17s were a lost opportunity, and we could have procured more albeit had we placed an order for more, and before the production line closed but yeah, that is the competency of the Indian defence establishment.

What minimum load carrying capacity is the IAF most likely to ask for in the upcoming MTA programme?

20 tonnes
25 tonnes
30 tonnes
35 tonnes
more

?

I hear that whatever the answer proves to be, HAL is interested in designing an MTA to meet the requirement. To me that is unfortunate. Involving HAL would delay new IAF airlift capability for many years. Designing and building an airlifter with no previous experience is risky, too, as Airbus found to their cost with A400M.

I'm curious about something as well. Why did India not consider buying the retiring UK C-130 fleet?

 

[125mm_Smoothbore]

 

[125mm_Smoothbore]

What minimum load carrying capacity is the IAF most likely to ask for in the upcoming MTA programme?

20 tonnes
25 tonnes
30 tonnes
35 tonnes
more

?

I hear that whatever the answer proves to be, HAL is interested in designing an MTA to meet the requirement. To me that is unfortunate. Involving HAL would delay new IAF airlift capability for many years. Designing and building an airlifter with no previous experience is risky, too, as Airbus found to their cost with A400M.

I'm curious about something as well. Why did India not consider buying the retiring UK C-130 fleet?

Request for information for MTA : https://indianairforce.nic.in/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/RFI-for-MEDIUM-TRANSPORT-AIRCRAFT-1.pdf
it says 18-30 tonnes (but A400M is also participating which has 37 tonnes payload)
other participants are the embraer C-390 (26 tonnes payload)

 

[Spitfire IX]

Sorry,should have said 'maximum load carrying capacity' in post above.

 

[125mm_Smoothbore]

Sorry,should have said 'maximum load carrying capacity' in post above.

thats the problem i guess in the rfp it gives a range but only gave lower limit if we go for 18-30 tonnes as solid numbers it would lead to c390 winning which is also bad imo better to get the A400-M

 

[Gandaberunda]

So now no TOT no Atmanirbhar jumla not even screw driver giri why to have Dassault MRO in India which anyhow costs more money in MRO/ planes built in France.
Buy off the shelf from France will be cheap than this stunts. Anil Ambani should be blacklisted and who ever suggested in partnership with him should be jailed.

 

[Spitfire IX]

So now no TOT no Atmanirbhar jumla not even screw driver giri why to have Dassault MRO in India which anyhow costs more money in MRO/ planes built in France.
Buy off the shelf from France will be cheap than this stunts. Anil Ambani should be blacklisted and who ever suggested in partnership with him should be jailed.

I remember it was reported in the original MRCA competition that Rafale was selected over Eurofighter on incomplete Rafale costings. That was 12 years ago so I don't remember which part of the Rafale offer did not have costs properly pinned down.

Dassault did not fulfil offset requirements, from what I read.

I am no cheerleader for Typhoon but I see a G2G deal as an opportunity now because

1 UK assembly line is about to fall silent (or already has), so it's a buyer's market for UK Typhoon
2 Delivery could be quick
3 Some UK assembly line equipment could (perhaps) be transferred to India, saving cost over a different type

Unless frames can be delivered quickly, what is the point of MMRCA 2.0? Tejas Mk2 deliveries should start a small number of years after Indian MMRCA 2.0 deliveries start, if India chooses to get organised. I don't describe taking 5 years to get quotes for a product urgently needed by IAF as 'organised'.

IMO. though, best of all would be to fast track Mk2 (cut all built in delays out of the system) and forget MMRCA 2.0.

 

[Gandaberunda]

I remember it was reported in the original MRCA competition that Rafale was selected over Eurofighter on incomplete Rafale costings. That was 12 years ago so I don't remember which part of the Rafale offer did not have costs properly pinned down.

Dassault did not fulfil offset requirements, from what I read.

I am no cheerleader for Typhoon but I see a G2G deal as an opportunity now because

1 UK assembly line is about to fall silent (or already has), so it's a buyer's market for UK Typhoon
2 Delivery could be quick
3 Some UK assembly line equipment could (perhaps) be transferred to India, saving cost over a different type

Unless frames can be delivered quickly, what is the point of MMRCA 2.0? Tejas Mk2 deliveries should start a small number of years after Indian MMRCA 2.0 deliveries start, if India chooses to get organised. I don't describe taking 5 years to get quotes for a product urgently needed by IAF as 'organised'.

Refale beat typhoon in technical qualification but IAF was smart enough to choose Rafale from France over euro fighter Typhoon developed by many European countries ( any European country can stop us citing any bullshit reason like Germany can stop delivering planes/ supply chain parts/MRO saying human rights violations)
The corruption is Modi govt went with that stupid failed Ambani as a partner for make in India Rafale over PSU (HAL). This guy after all these years proved Rahul Gandhi right as he can’t even make a paper plane. Even he has botched up dry jetty. Dassault got scoot free from ToT now (no Indian partner) not even screwdriver giri which was the primary clause for MRFA. Two botched up deals with French are Safrans - scorpene submarine deal and now Rafale. This kadi nanda is useless defence minister should force rafale to atleast Partner HAL now for Rafale else no point in setting up Dassault MRO unit and paying exorbitant price for whatever comes out of it.

 

[Zoid Raptor]

 

[Spitfire IX]

Refale beat typhoon in technical qualification but IAF was smart enough to choose Rafale from France over euro fighter Typhoon developed by many European countries ( any European country can stop us citing any bullshit reason like Germany can stop delivering planes/ supply chain parts/MRO saying human rights violations)

True.

So what fighters will IAF be flying in 5 years' time if trouble breaks out with India's neighbour(s)? The elephant in the room cannot be ignored forever.

PS RAF is soon to retire 2 squadrons of Typhoon interceptors. In contrast to Rafale's assembly line with a backlog of 200 or so, UK's Typhoon assembly line has a backlog of 0-5.

I still think that it is time for India to bypass its not-fit-for-purpose procurement system where Tejas Mk2 is concerned to get more fighters more quickly.

 

[Gandaberunda]

True.

So what fighters will IAF be flying in 5 years' time if trouble breaks out with India's neighbour(s)? The elephant in the room cannot be ignored forever.

PS RAF is soon to retire 2 squadrons of Typhoon interceptors. In contrast to Rafale's assembly line with a backlog of 200 or so, UK's Typhoon assembly line has a backlog of 0-5.

I still think that it is time for India to bypass its not-fit-for-purpose procurement system where Tejas Mk2 is concerned to get more fighters more quickly.

MMRCA is the carrot IAF trying to give it govt to extract money for foreign fighters imports. Even after 180 Tejas MK1A (committed) Tejas MK2 5 squadrons committed IAF wants 114 MMRCA. They want rafale in numbers and 36 is not sufficient so keep needling the IAF carrot so that govt allow them order 54/72 Rafale.
Same with Navy instead of going with submarines SSK and SSN in numbers they’re hell bent for nuclear carrier of 65k ton even after sister to Vikrant 40k carrier is being considered. The armed forces knows their trade with respect to govt babus in south block and kadi ninda

 

[Mr.Evil]

MMRCA is the carrot IAF trying to give it govt to extract money for foreign fighters imports. Even after 180 Tejas MK1A (committed) Tejas MK2 5 squadrons committed IAF wants 114 MMRCA. They want rafale in numbers and 36 is not sufficient so keep needling the IAF carrot so that govt allow them order 54/72 Rafale.
Same with Navy instead of going with submarines SSK and SSN in numbers they’re hell bent for nuclear carrier of 65k ton even after sister to Vikrant 40k carrier is being considered. The armed forces knows their trade with respect to govt babus in south block and kadi ninda

Airforce definitely wants more rafale in my opinion they need more rafales and at this point when mk1a’s delivery is pushed further back to the end of July I don’t blame them they know HAL very well also the one thing they know is until we get our own engine in tejas making a full blown manufacturing line for it is impossible US doesn’t want that we become independent neither does any other country we are the biggest customers.

 

[Spitfire IX]

MMRCA is the carrot IAF trying to give it govt to extract money for foreign fighters imports. Even after 180 Tejas MK1A (committed) Tejas MK2 5 squadrons committed IAF wants 114 MMRCA. They want rafale in numbers and 36 is not sufficient so keep needling the IAF carrot so that govt allow them order 54/72 Rafale.
Same with Navy instead of going with submarines SSK and SSN in numbers they’re hell bent for nuclear carrier of 65k ton even after sister to Vikrant 40k carrier is being considered. The armed forces knows their trade with respect to govt babus in south block and kadi ninda

Too late for more Rafale, I think, given the size of the Rafale backlog. That begs the question: when will the Rafale M arrive, if ordered? Perhaps IN is not in a big hurry, so when they arrive is not so important.

Going back 7 or 8 years, the IAF was faced with needing to bolster its fighter force during the current decade with no certainty as to when Tejas Mk2 would be delivered. Is it surprising that it wanted another MRCA competition or a lot more Rafales?

 

[Gandaberunda]

Too late for more Rafale, I think, given the size of the Rafale backlog. That begs the question: when will the Rafale M arrive, if ordered? Perhaps IN is not in a big hurry, so when they arrive is not so important.

Going back 7 or 8 years, the IAF was faced with needing to bolster its fighter force during the current decade with no certainty as to when Tejas Mk2 would be delivered. Is it surprising that it wanted another MRCA competition or a lot more Rafales?

Indian Navy has sufficient Mig 29k on career and not in hurry to get Rafale M. It’s a stop gap measure fighter mere 26 till (TEDBF) is materialised. Also Rafale M will be placed in shore based facility. IAF has 114 single engine MRFA and MMRCA is rafale get some more in number and end the circus. If they go for new fighter then it will be zoo of aircraft’s in inventory

 

[Gandaberunda]

H

Mk1a WAS delayed for first flight due to some software changes suggested by IAF the current delay is due to SUPPLY CHAIN ISSUE mentioned clearly here https://www.thehindu.com/news/natio...liveries-of-lca-mk1a-jets/article68348732.ece
You can keep blaming the generals and give HAL benefit of doubt but the truth is HAL after getting bulk order still not delivering the output as it should’ve which in turn deteriorates our capability we need 42 fighter squadrons we have 31 we need export today or tomorrow and that’s a fact.

HAL is lead integrator for Tejas and as govt wanted private players to chip in so HAL agreed to rope in private players. The supply chain issue biting our back is not on HAL. Also it’s on IAF our squadrons are dwindling sat on MRFA and MMRCA cribbing for imports and parikkar had to shove Tejas under their ass to accept it and came up with Mk1A stop gap solution. We will never going to get 42 squadrons least until 2050. Already air marshal said looking at 35 squadrons till 2040 with 180 Tejas and 5 squadrons of Tejas MK2. With drones involved in CAPS servillence and cheaper to operate wrt manned fighter aircraft govt won’t allow touch that 42 squadron numbers