Indian Air Force: News & Discussions

[Azaad]

In that same paper, there was a comment by the guy who created the paper, the comment whose screenshot I shared in previous reply.
It's a least stealthy vlo aircrafts, but still a vlo aircraft.
It's not a LO aircrafts loke superhornet blk 3, rafale etc.

Yeah , a random guy making two different assessments in the same article he wrote with one in the comments section. Tells me all I need to know .

Super hornet is LO ? Good , I learnt something knew today.

You said " rafale design Philosophy is omni role not multirole" .
You don't need to say anymore.
Please stop arguing in aeronautics discussion, vinti hai apse.

Yes , it's omni role . I've quoted from Dassault's site . Didn't you read it ? Besides , do you know the difference between omni role & multi role ? I don't think you do .

Your fucking fully optimised rafale airframe is not capable of awacs killers role, with radar range limited to only 200km due to small size of its nose cone hence small radar, and not capable of SEAD/Anti radiation role either.

It's not my fucking Rafale , kid . It's Dassault's unlike your mother fucking Su-57 . Got it ?

The radar is more than decade old due for a GaN upgradation which'd precede the F5 & is expected in the next 2-3 years.

ISE enables our Rafales to carry SAAW , Rudram etc . The French design philosophy worked differently . Their theory was SPECTRA would cancel the radar signal enabling them to get close enough to knock off the radars. That's how the Rafales were able to conduct SEAD / DEAD missions in Libya . Can you get me any such examples of the Su-57 & F-35 ?

Given new improvements in radar developments , they're now coming up with an ARM . Whether it precedes the F5 or it is part of it , I'm unaware of the developments in this matter. Once again this is what the French members informed me .

Su57, f15, j16, j20 etc are all capable of both

Su57 can do every thing that rafale can even and thing rafale can't.

Who denied it ? I'm just saying it's WiP & an unproven platform . You want me to type this in any other language in case you don't understand English , I can oblige.

Like su57 is not as stealthy as f35,j20 is not avionics wide sophisticated as f35, but it's miles better than "sophisticated omni role rafale".

Yup. Since you said the Su-57 is better than the Rafale I accept it at face value . Now go on & convince the IAF of your choice & tell them how did you arrive at your conclusion.

As long as you guys Don't understand what foc is, and believe rafale f4 is better than current su57 with al41, you Don't need to say anymore.

Yes , I think it's best for everyone concerned especially you if you put this matter behind you & move on .

 

[randombully]

Yeah , a random guy making two different assessments in the same article he wrote with one in the comments section. Tells me all I need to know .

Super hornet is LO ? Good , I learnt something knew today.



Yes , it's omni role . I've quoted from Dassault's site . Didn't you read it ? Besides , do you know the difference between omni role & multi role ? I don't think you do .


It's not my fucking Rafale , kid . It's Dassault's unlike your mother fucking Su-57 . Got it ?

The radar is more than decade old due for a GaN upgradation which'd precede the F5 & is expected in the next 2-3 years.

ISE enables our Rafales to carry SAAW , Rudram etc . The French design philosophy worked differently . Their theory was SPECTRA would cancel the radar signal enabling them to get close enough to knock off the radars. That's how the Rafales were able to conduct SEAD / DEAD missions in Libya . Can you get me any such examples of the Su-57 & F-35 ?

Given new improvements in radar developments , they're now coming up with an ARM . Whether it precedes the F5 or it is part of it , I'm unaware of the developments in this matter. Once again this is what the French members informed me .




Who denied it ? I'm just saying it's WiP & an unproven platform . You want me to type this in any other language in case you don't understand English , I can oblige.


Yup. Since you said the Su-57 is better than the Rafale I accept it at face value . Now go on & convince the IAF of your choice & tell them how did you arrive at your conclusion.



Yes , I think it's best for everyone concerned especially you if you put this matter behind you & move on .

All right what's the difference between omni and multirole?
And no matter what GAN you put that small nose cone is a hurdle.
Again the wip is the newer varient of su57 with al51 engine.
Wip is the twin seater su57.
Current su57 with al41 is not wip.
Just like rafale f5 is wip, but f4 is not.


Tho ultimately you did finally agree that su57 is better, still some sense left


As for that assisment, his assessment is same in both.
Su 57 is stealthy enough to be called a vlo aircraft, but compared to other vlo aircrafts( f22, f35 even j20) it's stealth leaves lot be desired.
But compared LO aircrafts(in clean configuration) like rafale, superhornet, tejas mk2, su57 is miles more stealthier.

The current blk3 superhornet has one of the lowest if not the lowest frontal rcs out of all non stealth jets, the clean superhornet's frontal rcs is in range of 0.1m2-0.2m2
This is also reason boing offered a stealth pod to carry missiles for super hornet.
And not only frontal rcs, in frontal rcs rafale and tejas mk2 can match it, but super hornet's low rcs features extend in sides, top, bottom, back everywhere.
Not other non stealth airframes is as stealthy from sides, back as superhornet.
And in terms of IR stealth, it can rival f35( except from back)
With that all said all these features does not provide much advantage over jets like rafale, typhoons as they are also decently LO and ultimately all non stealth jets will carry weapons externally.
The stealth pod was rejected by US navy

 

[Azaad]

All right what's the difference between omni and multirole?

That's what I thought that you didn't know the difference between omni role & multi role , yet you kept arguing.

Multi role refers to the different roles a FA can perform like air domination , air superiority , CAP , air strike meaning air to ground , deep pentration strike etc.

However in the past all such multi role FAs could only execute one such role at any given time which meant if a party of 6 nos Mirage 2000 was tasked with say striking Balakote , 4 x Mirage 2000s would be armed only with WVR & BVR AAMs whereas the strike payload would be carried by only 2 nos Mirage 2000s. This was done because the MC - Mission Computer could be programmed to carry out only one given task at a time .

Omni role means such FA were designed to perform multiple roles at the same time. Eurofighter & Gripens are omni role too. The MKI is not & neither is the Su-35. The Su-57 may well be omni role but that's only natural & to be expected. However let's wait for confirmation which'd come in due course of time.

And no matter what GAN you put that small nose cone is a hurdle.

You seem to be under the impression only the hardware matters & not the software to tell the target from the noise / back ground clutter which is where the real mystery sauce of the AESA radar lies.

Again the wip is the newer varient of su57 with al51 engine.
Wip is the twin seater su57.
Current su57 with al41 is not wip.
Just like rafale f5 is wip, but f4 is not.

I don't think you've understood the entire PAKFA program. The real deal was always the second stage or the Su-57 which is being tested with the Izdeliye 30 or 117S TF.

Just like the RoK KAI -21 Boromae Project is split into 2 phases where the first phase will be a 4.75 / quasi 5th Gen FA while the real deal would be the upcoming 5th Gen FA which is still under development aka WiP.

So it really doesn't matter if the first stage of the Su-57 is FOC or not since we're not looking out for it either way.

Trust that clarifies , kid.

Tho ultimately you did finally agree that su57 is better, still some sense left

Did I ? Good . Now go pursuade the IAF.

 

[randombully]

That's what I thought that you didn't know the difference between omni role & multi role , yet you kept arguing.

Multi role refers to the different roles a FA can perform like air domination , air superiority , CAP , air strike meaning air to ground , deep pentration strike etc.

However in the past all such multi role FAs could only execute one such role at any given time which meant if a party of 6 nos Mirage 2000 was tasked with say striking Balakote , 4 x Mirage 2000s would be armed only with WVR & BVR AAMs whereas the strike payload would be carried by only 2 nos Mirage 2000s. This was done because the MC - Mission Computer could be programmed to carry out only one given task at a time .

Omni role means such FA were designed to perform multiple roles at the same time. Eurofighter & Gripens are omni role too. The MKI is not & neither is the Su-35. The Su-57 may well be omni role but that's only natural & to be expected. However let's wait for confirmation which'd come in due course of time.




You seem to be under the impression only the hardware matters & not the software to tell the target from the noise / back ground clutter which is where the real mystery sauce of the AESA radar lies.



I don't think you've understood the entire PAKFA program. The real deal was always the second stage or the Su-57 which is being tested with the Izdeliye 30 or 117S TF.

Just like the RoK KAI -21 Boromae Project is split into 2 phases where the first phase will be a 4.75 / quasi 5th Gen FA while the real deal would be the upcoming 5th Gen FA which is still under development aka WiP.

So it really doesn't matter if the first stage of the Su-57 is FOC or not since we're not looking out for it either way.

Trust that clarifies , kid.

Did I ? Good . Now go pursuade the IAF.

You see, the rest of the world except baugette people still uses "multirole for" eurofighter, gripen, f35 etc.

No matter how good the software, ain't gonna Overcome size limits.
There's a reason chinks went with 2000trm in j20, US with 1600+ in f35.
Other countries can do software too, but they also do hardware too along with gan
France is limited in terms of size increase which is limit software ain't gonna overcome.
More trm and more power not only provide greater range, but also greater detection and tracking range of same rcs target.

Even if the real deal is not here. The smaller deal( al 41 su 57) is already better than rafale.

As for persuading IAF? That's ruskies job.

My goal was to inform about the truth of su57 being a choice capabilities,tot, customizablity and long term future wise.

 

[Azaad]

You see, the rest of the world except baugette people still uses "multirole for" eurofighter, gripen, f35 etc.

Leaving the nomenclature part aside which is a matter of semantics , the question should be can the Rafale , Eurofighter , Gripen , F-35 perform more than one role in a mission ? The answer is yes it can . Can their analogues in the VKS like the Su-30 M2 & the Su-35S perform such a role ? The answer is no , they cannot .

Only the Su-57 can perform such a role though this is more speculation since it's not been proven but is a logical progression & expected of a Russian 5th Gen FA .

No matter how good the software, ain't gonna Overcome size limits.
There's a reason chinks went with 2000trm in j20, US with 1600+ in f35.
Other countries can do software too, but they also do hardware too along with gan
France is limited in terms of size increase which is limit software ain't gonna overcome.
More trm and more power not only provide greater range, but also greater detection and tracking range of same rcs target.

You seem to be under the impression that TRMs can only be located in the nose. F5 upgrades comes with DAS & EODAS with GaN antennas. Plus a brand new TF.

Even if the real deal is not here. The smaller deal( al 41 su 57) is already better than rafale.

The 1st stage Su-57 will eventually be upgraded to 2nd stage Su-57 . Rafales will be continuously upgraded up until 2050 & beyond. The French plan to retain it upto 2060-65. There's already talk of F6 package specifications being drawn up.

As for persuading IAF? That's ruskies job.

So far they haven't been successful. So why are you breaking your head here & eating up bandwidth ? Bring it up when there's credible news the IAF is in discussions with the Russians for the Su-57.

My goal was to inform about the truth of su57 being a choice capabilities,tot, customizablity and long term future wise.

Thanks but no thanks , this information is available on the net.

 

[randombully]

Leaving the nomenclature part aside which is a matter of semantics , the question should be can the Rafale , Eurofighter , Gripen , F-35 perform more than one role in a mission ? The answer is yes it can . Can their analogues in the VKS like the Su-30 M2 & the Su-35S perform such a role ? The answer is no , they cannot .

Only the Su-57 can perform such a role though this is more speculation since it's not been proven but is a logical progression & expected of a Russian 5th Gen FA .



You seem to be under the impression that TRMs can only be located in the nose. F5 upgrades comes with DAS & EODAS with GaN antennas. Plus a brand new TF.



The 1st stage Su-57 will eventually be upgraded to 2nd stage Su-57 . Rafales will be continuously upgraded up until 2050 & beyond. The French plan to retain it upto 2060-65. There's already talk of F6 package specifications being drawn up.


So far they haven't been successful. So why are you breaking your head here & eating up bandwidth ? Bring it up when there's credible news the IAF is in discussions with the Russians for the Su-57.


Thanks but no thanks , this information is available on the net.

Yes their russian analogous can.
Here's a pic below of su35 carrying air to air, air to surface/Anti ship missiles and wing tip jammers in the same mission.
Like seriously that's basic stuff for modern fighter jets.
Arguing with you feels and more pathetic.

DAS( distributed aperture system) and EODAS( electronic optical distributed aperture system, basically irst+DAS) are IR( infra red system) why the fuck will they come with GAN antennas?
Whyyyy the fuck an Infrared system have gan antennas? Does fucking irst have gan or gas trm?
Bhai maaf karde galti hogayi tere se argue Kar liye hum.


And that 1st of su57 is better than future rafale f5, because it already has more powerful radar, DAS( not as as goods as DAS of f35 and not as integrated), su57 right now also has DIRCM that rafale f4 lacks.
Along with being a stealth jet.


Bhai tu womao chinks se lad, aeronautics me mat ghus, vinti hai

 

[mist_consecutive]

More details pls?

I have heard army will sign QRSAM contract soon

plus in AeroIndia 25 many radars were revealed.

Aside from these two nothing much but I get updates from defense bros i've followed on twitter and strategicfront some times.

> 95% of Airbases & critical installations have 3+ layered ADs if not 100%.

Additional Anti-Drone Layer (if available) : Detectors, Jammers, EO, Soft-Kill solutions.
First Layer : ZSU-23 & L70 AA guns with Flycatcher FCR, Igla MANPADS.
Second Layer : SPYDER, Akash
Third Layer : MRSAM
Additional Layer (if available) : S-400

Doctrine is requirement of point-defence fighters are minimised so that attacks like Feb 27th can be handled by AD without taking fighters airborne.

 

[GaudaNaresh]

Leaving the nomenclature part aside which is a matter of semantics , the question should be can the Rafale , Eurofighter , Gripen , F-35 perform more than one role in a mission ? The answer is yes it can . Can their analogues in the VKS like the Su-30 M2 & the Su-35S perform such a role ? The answer is no , they cannot .

Only the Su-57 can perform such a role though this is more speculation since it's not been proven but is a logical progression & expected of a Russian 5th Gen FA .



You seem to be under the impression that TRMs can only be located in the nose. F5 upgrades comes with DAS & EODAS with GaN antennas. Plus a brand new TF.



The 1st stage Su-57 will eventually be upgraded to 2nd stage Su-57 . Rafales will be continuously upgraded up until 2050 & beyond. The French plan to retain it upto 2060-65. There's already talk of F6 package specifications being drawn up.


So far they haven't been successful. So why are you breaking your head here & eating up bandwidth ? Bring it up when there's credible news the IAF is in discussions with the Russians for the Su-57.


Thanks but no thanks , this information is available on the net.

I am no air aviation expert, but why WOULDNT YOU send in a strike team of six planes for A2G missions with 2-3 being exclusively A2G and the rest being A2A ??
Whatever missiles or bombs you drop on ground are like 20x heavier than the ones you shoot planes with, so why wouldnt you want your escort jets to be 100% optimized for escorting ??
Seems to me there is nothing to be gained by sharing payload of A2G package between all the six planes - congrats, you now have six planes who can all do A2G mission but all have 1 bomb each and now all the planes are suboptimal for the A2A role due to significantly heavier A2G missile stuck to it.

Why would you want this option ???

 

[Azaad]

Yes their russian analogous can.
Here's a pic below of su35 carrying air to air, air to surface/Anti ship missiles and wing tip jammers in the same mission.
Like seriously that's basic stuff for modern fighter jets.
Arguing with you feels and more pathetic.

Yes the Su-35S is omni role. I stand corrected.

DAS( distributed aperture system) and EODAS( electronic optical distributed aperture system, basically irst+DAS) are IR( infra red system) why the fuck will they come with GAN antennas?
Whyyyy the fuck an Infrared system have gan antennas? Does fucking irst have gan or gas trm?
Bhai maaf karde galti hogayi tere se argue Kar liye hum.

I meant to say side arrays . You're talking to someone who's working & posting here simultaneously. Cut me some slack. Or are you a pedant ? Look up the word if you don't know it's meaning .

And thanks for informing me what the EODAS consists of . This is the first time I've come across it .

And that 1st of su57 is better than future rafale f5, because it already has more powerful radar, DAS( not as as goods as DAS of f35 and not as integrated), su57 right now also has DIRCM that rafale f4 lacks.
Along with being a stealth jet.


Bhai tu womao chinks se lad, aeronautics me mat ghus, vinti hai

How do you know their radar is more powerful than Rafales ? Let me guess . You counted their TRMs. So the more the TRMs the better the range & the better the resolution . I read you very well.

Did you or didn't you read what I wrote before about the Time lines & the fact that we're already familiar with the Rafales having set up 2 bases here catering to 72 nos Rafales for which we've already spent a billion USD if not more plus the training as well as evolved tactics in how this FA is deployed.

Which AF will undertake all this repeatedly for marginal gains at higher costs which is basically duplicating the infrastructure when they can get all this through upgrades which proves economical ? Sort of the same logic why we didn't go in for the Su-35 when it was offered to us since we already had the Su-30

Ever thought of being a paid agent for the Russian ? Feel free to contact them. They'd be delighted to have shill for them on board. As it is they're pretty isolated & miserable.

 

[randombully]

I am no air aviation expert, but why WOULDNT YOU send in a strike team of six planes for A2G missions with 2-3 being exclusively A2G and the rest being A2A ??
Whatever missiles or bombs you drop on ground are like 20x heavier than the ones you shoot planes with, so why wouldnt you want your escort jets to be 100% optimized for escorting ??
Seems to me there is nothing to be gained by sharing payload of A2G package between all the six planes - congrats, you now have six planes who can all do A2G mission but all have 1 bomb each and now all the planes are suboptimal for the A2A role due to significantly heavier A2G missile stuck to it.

Why would you want this option ???

Let's say 4 fighter anti radiation strike package supported by 3 purely air to air fighters
Each fighter carring 1 rundram 2, 2 astra mk1 and 2 wvr missiles.
Total 4 rudram 2 missile.
Now as you go for anti radiation role, the long range radar will detect you, now because it's long range and you are far away so they can't shoot you down with SAM, they scramble defensive fighters.
Your pure air to air buddies should be detected first and distract the enemy jets
While yout 4 buddies sneak in to deal with the Sam site, but oh no enemy had brains he knew that first group can be for distraction so they send additional fighters near Sam sight.
Now thankfully all 4 of your fighters have air to air load too, and given all 4 have anti radiation too so "any" 1-2 can still deal with Sam site.

Having mix loads gives you more flexibility, you Don't depend on dedicated anti radiation fighter, any of the 4 fighters can do anti radiation and any of 4 can act against defensive enemy fighter.

Now, sometimes if you are unlucky it could be a case you are am alone fighter jet doing SEAD mission only by yourself, not a good scenario, but it's war shit happens, but yout thankful that yout fighter can carry both type of payloads in the same mission so you can still protect yourself in case enemy fighters show up.

And many other cases.

 

[randombully]

Yes the Su-35S is omni role. I stand corrected.




I meant to say side arrays . You're talking to someone who's working & posting here simultaneously. Cut me some slack. Or are you a pedant ? Look up the word if you don't know it's meaning .

And thanks for informing me what the EODAS consists of . This is the first time I've come across it .



How do you know their radar is more powerful than Rafales ? Let me guess . You counted their TRMs. So the more the TRMs the better the range & the better the resolution . I read you very well.

Did you or didn't you read what I wrote before about the Time lines & the fact that we're already familiar with the Rafales having set up 2 bases here catering to 72 nos Rafales for which we've already spent a billion USD if not more plus the training as well as evolved tactics in how this FA is deployed.

Which AF will undertake all this repeatedly for marginal gains at higher costs which is basically duplicating the infrastructure when they can get all this through upgrades which proves economical ? Sort of the same logic why we didn't go in for the Su-35 when it was offered to us since we already had the Su-30

Ever thought of being a paid agent for the Russian ? Feel free to contact them. They'd be delighted to have shill for them on board. As it is they're pretty isolated & miserable.

Marginal gains?
Your getting a fuckin stealth jet that can smoke any chinky jet in air to air combat except j20.
Rafale will meet it's match in bvr combat by latest chinese j16 and j10's.
And avionics wise latest varients of both of these jets are pretty advanced.
The only advantage rafale has here is Meteor, and Chinese themselves are in later stages of testing their own sfdr, and that sfdr will be much more comparable to our astra mk3 than Meteor.

As for that omni role bullshit both tejas mk1 and our su30mki is capable of that too, and they both are at most 4+ gen, not even 4.5 gen

Here's a pic of tejas mk1 carrying both air to ground( guided bombs) and air to air missile together, means it can perform both air to air role and air to ground in a single mission.
As said before the "omni" role is pretty basic for modern fighter jet.


And those side arrays even if installed would work as a separate weaker radar, it won't help increase the range of main radar, neither it's resolution.
And lastly, there's no indication of f5 getting side arrays.
Also do you know alonh with having main larger aesa radar on its nose, su57 currently already have two small side radars with 350+ trm each.

"Sort of the same logic why we didn't go in for the Su-35 when it was offered to us since we already had the Su-30"

You can upgrade su30 to su35 standard.
You can't upgrade rafale to su57 standard no matter f5, f6 etc.

 

[GaudaNaresh]

Let's say 4 fighter anti radiation strike package supported by 3 purely air to air fighters
Each fighter carring 1 rundram 2, 2 astra mk1 and 2 wvr missiles.
Total 4 rudram 2 missile.
Now as you go for anti radiation role, the long range radar will detect you, now because it's long range and you are far away so they can't shoot you down with SAM, they scramble defensive fighters.
Your pure air to air buddies should be detected first and distract the enemy jets
While yout 4 buddies sneak in to deal with the Sam site, but oh no enemy had brains he knew that first group can be for distraction so they send additional fighters near Sam sight.
Now thankfully all 4 of your fighters have air to air load too, and given all 4 have anti radiation too so "any" 1-2 can still deal with Sam site.

Having mix loads gives you more flexibility, you Don't depend on dedicated anti radiation fighter, any of the 4 fighters can do anti radiation and any of 4 can act against defensive enemy fighter.

Now, sometimes if you are unlucky it could be a case you are am alone fighter jet doing SEAD mission only by yourself, not a good scenario, but it's war shit happens, but yout thankful that yout fighter can carry both type of payloads in the same mission so you can still protect yourself in case enemy fighters show up.

And many other cases.

That may be true for a very small bandwidth of A2G roles - like sure, anti-radiation strike. But when you wanna do balakot, you carry huge heavy A2G bombs to blow up buildings. Those bombs *ARE* mucho heavier than A2A missiles. That is a known thing- they are like 2-4x heavier per bomb IIRC, sometimes more.
I cant see how for vast majority of ground roles u retain optimal A2A capabilities in mixed mode given 90% of a2g missiles are much much heavier than a2a missiles.

 

[randombully]

That may be true for a very small bandwidth of A2G roles - like sure, anti-radiation strike. But when you wanna do balakot, you carry huge heavy A2G bombs to blow up buildings. Those bombs *ARE* mucho heavier than A2A missiles. That is a known thing- they are like 2-4x heavier per bomb IIRC, sometimes more.
I cant see how for vast majority of ground roles u retain optimal A2A capabilities in mixed mode given 90% of a2g missiles are much much heavier than a2a missiles.

Here's mirage 2000 in balakot loadout, carrying spice 2000, targeting pod, two fuel tanks and 3 "air to air" missile.

 

[Azaad]

Marginal gains?
Your getting a fuckin stealth jet that can smoke any chinky jet in air to air combat except j20.

The argument here is not whether you believe the Su-57 is a 5th Gen capable of going head on against the combo of J-20+J-16. It may well be so but that decision is for the IAF to make. How many times must this simple fact be conveyed? Are you thick in the head?

The IAF walked out of the FGFA program in 2018 when the MMRCA 1.0 program was cancelled & 36 nos Rafales F3 were ordered in 2016 , with the IAF deciding they'd fully focus on the AMCA. Do you think you know better than the IAF? If you do take it up with them.

Rafale will meet it's match in bvr combat by latest chinese j16 and j10's.
And avionics wise latest varients of both of these jets are pretty advanced.
The only advantage rafale has here is Meteor, and Chinese themselves are in later stages of testing their own sfdr, and that sfdr will be much more comparable to our astra mk3 than Meteor.

Great. So by your logic the Rafales are a waste of money.

Just a few hours ago you were arguing that the 1000 kms range Hypersonic AAM the Chinese recently tested claiming it was a F-35 killer was not so in your opinion but meant for slow moving transporters , refuellers, AEW aircrafts etc.

However the Meteor missile with a max speed of ~ Mach 4 is very much a J-20 killer.

As for that omni role bullshit both tejas mk1 and our su30mki is capable of that too, and they both are at most 4+ gen, not even 4.5 gen

The MKI has undergone a lot of upgrades & modifications even before the Super Sukhoi program. The LCA has just made it's debut.

All FAs which can be modified today to omni role status will be. It's no longer an USP like it was a decade back. That rules out the Mirage 2000 & the MiG-29 though not to mention the Jaguars.

Here's a pic of tejas mk1 carrying both air to ground( guided bombs) and air to air missile together, means it can perform both air to air role and air to ground in a single mission.
As said before the "omni" role is pretty basic for modern fighter jet.

 

[GaudaNaresh]

Here's mirage 2000 in balakot loadout, carrying spice 2000, targeting pod, two fuel tanks and 3 "air to air" missile.

Yes and how does this not prove my pont ? the spice 2000 gotta weigh like 4x that of the air to air missile, no ? So how is this optimal a2a loadout instead of having another a2a missile?

I get that it does make the aircraft more flexible, but i think we are overrating flexibility here a bit. Cant think of that many ground mission scenarios where you want every single jet going in to look like this loadout and not have strict a2a loadout on some of them........

 

[randombully]

The argument here is not whether you believe the Su-57 is a 5th Gen capable of going head on against the combo of J-20+J-16. It may well be so but that decision is for the IAF to make. How many times must this simple fact be conveyed? Are you thick in the head?

The IAF walked out of the FGFA program in 2018 when the MMRCA 1.0 program was cancelled & 36 nos Rafales F3 were ordered in 2016 , with the IAF deciding they'd fully focus on the AMCA. Do you think you know better than the IAF? If you do take it up with them.

Great. So by your logic the Rafales are a waste of money.

Mirage 2000 is omni role too, so Is mig29upg and mig29k.
Here's Mirage 2000 carrying balakot loadout of mix air to ground and air to air.


The only non omni role fighters in Indian arsenal are older jaguars( modern Darin 3 jags are omni role) and mig21.





The MKI has undergone a lot of upgrades & modifications even before the Super Sukhoi program. The LCA has just made it's debut.

All FAs which can be modified today to omni role status will be. It's no longer an USP like it was a decade back. That rules out the Mirage 2000 & the MiG-29 though not to mention the Jaguars.

Just a few hours ago you were arguing that the 1000 kms range Hypersonic AAM the Chinese recently tested claiming it was a F-35 killer was not so in your opinion but meant for slow moving transporters , refuellers, AEW aircrafts etc.

However the Meteor missile with a max speed of ~ Mach 4 is very much a J-20 killer.

It looks like you don't know how air to air combat works.
J20's 2000trm radar can easily lock on and onto a 1m2 target at 130-150km away, and rafale with purely air to air load will have frontal rcs if approx 1m2, let's add EW.
Now j20's radar can lock on to rafale at 70-90 km.

But due to stealth and EW and rafale's weaker radar can only lock onto j20 at 30-50km.

So in case of rafale was j20, no matter the range of missile, rafale loses.
Just due to being non stealth.


Wait a minute, I'm the one fucking explaining everything.
Alright explain to me how will that 1000km long range missile bigger than brahmos target fighter jets?


How is Meteor a j20 killer? Can rafale lock onto j20 at 150-180km? To utilize the range of missile?

And Mirage 2000 is omni role capable as you can see in the image below, mig29 upg and mig29k are also omni role capable, Darin 3 jags are also omni role capable.
The only jets not omni role capable in iaf are older jags and mig 21

 

[randombully]

Yes and how does this not prove my pont ? the spice 2000 gotta weigh like 4x that of the air to air missile, no ? So how is this optimal a2a loadout instead of having another a2a missile?

I get that it does make the aircraft more flexible, but i think we are overrating flexibility here a bit. Cant think of that many ground mission scenarios where you want every single jet going in to look like this loadout and not have strict a2a loadout on some of them........

You do have strict air to air load out on escort jets.
What do don't have is strict air to ground only load on any of your jet unless complete air Superiority has been achieved.

In any air to ground strike package, there are pure air to air lodout escort jets and mixed air to air to air to ground loadout strike jets.

And your thinking of "overrated flexibility" is wrong
But still explain why do you think it's over rated?

 

[GaudaNaresh]

It looks like you don't know how air to air combat works.
J20's 2000trm radar can easily lock on and onto a 1m2 target at 130-150km away, and rafale with purely air to air load will have frontal rcs if approx 1m2, let's add EW.
Now j20's radar can lock on to rafale at 70-90 km.

But due to stealth and EW and rafale's weaker radar can only lock onto j20 at 30-50km.

So in case of rafale was j20, no matter the range of missile, rafale loses.
Just due to being non stealth.


Wait a minute, I'm the one fucking explaining everything.
Alright explain to me how will that 1000km long range missile bigger than brahmos target fighter jets?


How is Meteor a j20 killer? Can rafale lock onto j20 at 150-180km? To utilize the range of missile?

I think the biggest question of A2A involving stealth jets is the coverage of SAMs. This is why Russia isnt just running in all trigger happy with its Su57s - sure they dont have a lot but they do have a functional squadron of it and if a2a was this great for stealth vs no stealth, then they'd have singlehandedly destroyed the entire Ukraine AF themselves.

So this begs the question- why not ? Because, SAMs. SAM radar is far better i think at detecting Stealth aircraft than other stealth aircraft. Mostly because power output.
Like RCS only matters so much if i have overhelmingly strong powerful radar for power output and sensitive enough receivers. I can 'eye of sauron' you and find frodo under the rock.

So then i think as Azad said, question becomes one of software - can your ground radar and aircraft radar communicate and link with each other to share input data and that is where software comes into play.

 

[Azaad]

It looks like you don't know how air to air combat works.
J20's 2000trm radar can easily lock on and onto a 1m2 target at 130-150km away, and rafale with purely air to air load will have frontal rcs if approx 1m2, let's add EW.
Now j20's radar can lock on to rafale at 70-90 km.

But due to stealth and EW and rafale's weaker radar can only lock onto j20 at 30-50km.

So in case of rafale was j20, no matter the range of missile, rafale loses.
Just due to being non stealth.

This is where things get interesting. The French claim Rafales will use their SPECTRA suite which'd deploy ACT to cancel out radar detection.

As to the fact how will a Rafale detect a J-20, the IAF doesn't consider the J-20 a stealth FA & has openly said so on multiple occasions in the same way it doesn't consider the Su-57 a stealth FA but they choose to be more discreet about it in public.

Wait a minute, I'm the one fucking explaining everything. Alright explain to me how will that 1000km long range missile bigger than brahmos target fighter jets?

I didn't make the claim. I just reported what the Chinese have claimed. Believe it or not, it's all the same to me .

How is Meteor a j20 killer? Can rafale lock onto j20 at 150-180km? To utilize the range of missile?

The French members over in Strat Front claim the range of the meteor is close to 300 kms maybe more. Apparently their former president Hollande unintentionally revealed the range of the Meteor missile in his autobiography.

Now you can use your logic to guess what's the range of the RBE 2 radar. Once again just to remind you, kid, what you & I believe doesn't matter , it's what the IAF believes which matters & right now the IAF is enamoured by the Rafales not by the Su-57 .

Whether this love affair was worth it or a total waste will be known soon as will the performance of the J-16+ J-20 combo.

You can check with @BON PLAN

 

[randombully]

I think the biggest question of A2A involving stealth jets is the coverage of SAMs. This is why Russia isnt just running in all trigger happy with its Su57s - sure they dont have a lot but they do have a functional squadron of it and if a2a was this great for stealth vs no stealth, then they'd have singlehandedly destroyed the entire Ukraine AF themselves.

So this begs the question- why not ? Because, SAMs. SAM radar is far better i think at detecting Stealth aircraft than other stealth aircraft. Mostly because power output.
Like RCS only matters so much if i have overhelmingly strong powerful radar for power output and sensitive enough receivers. I can 'eye of sauron' you and find frodo under the rock.

So then i think as Azad said, question becomes one of software - can your ground radar and aircraft radar communicate and link with each other to share input data and that is where software comes into play.

Ukraine doesn't have an airforce to destroy or atleast one that openly challenges russian airforce.
Ukrainian heli, su27, few f16 they received all fly in coordinated manner in a way to evade detection by russian assets, they fly low to ground to prevent ground based radars from detecting them( earth's curvature affects detection of ground and ship bases radar) and use standoff weapons with long range to not get too close to Sam or russian border.
They also make sure to remain deep inside their own airspace defended by freindly sam by using standoff weapons.
And never fly whenever a russian airforce squad is conducting raid or is In the area.
Due to all these restriction their operations are rare and rate of operation is very slow.


I think when you don't have atleast decent knowledge about the subject, you should not come to conclusions based on whatever you read.
Sam radars do have better power output, but depends on which Sam, mobile medium range and short range same like Akash, qrsam, Akash ng, vlrsam, barak 8 will not have very powerful radar, beacuse what's the use of power and tracking when your missiles range is just not enough, like s400 has fuckin powerful radar.
But no matter how powerful it will struggle with tracking stealth jets beyond 50-70km due to small rcs( like rafale frontal rcs is 0.1 without payload, f35 is 0.001, that's hundred times smaller than rafale) and EW.

And as said before non stealth fighters uses terrain hugging by flying close to ground to prevent detecting by taking advantage of earth's curvature.

So then you thought as azad said question becomes software.
No it doesn't, software is already In play from beginning.