Indian Air Force: News & Discussions

[Anupu]

I don't think we will have any problems as we already have big American guns, transport and attack helicopters, guns for the army and I personally hope, more then a hundred F15 exs which will help our pilots transition from them to the AMCA, which is similar in design. I also think Su 57s are better so I am hoping for the best. Dassault is giving our pilots experience on delta wings as we are making a few of them as you know, but In the long run I doubt Dassault's ability to keep us safer then having American and or Russian equipment until our stuff matures enough to stop import and start export.

American government can’t be trusted beyond a point even in transport the dependency is dangerous. But we have capabilities to mitigate stoppage of support. Our target should be indigenous capabilities, even I have been sceptical of DRDOs capabilities in the past on DFI.

But in the end control of design matters. That’s why in what we can produce we should. And what we need to import diversify.

MMRCA should only be based on one thing the tooling that will be transferred to the private production line should be cutting edge and source codes for Indian weapons integration.

 

[midnight]

American government can’t be trusted beyond a point even in transport the dependency is dangerous. But we have capabilities to mitigate stoppage of support. Our target should be indigenous capabilities, even I have been sceptical of DRDOs capabilities in the past on DFI.

But in the end control of design matters. That’s why in what we can produce we should. And what we need to import diversify.

MMRCA should only be based on one thing the tooling that will be transferred to the private production line should be cutting edge and source codes for Indian weapons integration.

Boeing is offering the same.

 

[darkflame]

IAF Rafale flying with Meteors on their innermost underwing pylons
View attachment 35802

This Image is of unit integration trials in France

 

[Anupu]

Boeing is offering the same.

Really is f-15ex tooling better than Rafales or even gripen for that matter.

Look at the composite content for one that will give you ideas it’s an aluminium plane. There is nothing there to help our future private line be competitive technologically

 

[Spitfire IX]

IMO Tejas Mk 2 should be ordered instead of MMRCA - if it is not experiencing development delays in the aircraft itself or in its systems (avionics etc). Of course the various bodies involved would have to give a genuine assessment of the development position of their contribution for an informed decision to be made on that assessment.

If Mk 2 were appraised as being 'doable' by HAL within the timeframe required, I would suggest placing a large initial order of well over 100. Choosing Mk2 rather than MMRCA would avoid all the problems associated with India not developing and owning the code required to integrate Indian weapons.

PS Two lines, one run by HAL, another by a private company would be nice. HAL to be paid as a consultant for its role of transferring assembly knowhow to the private company concerned.

 

[Corvus Splendens]

 

[Anupu]

If you must mmrca either buy Rafales or Gripen specially if you get the ge-414 production line.

 

[Gandaberunda]

IMO Tejas Mk 2 should be ordered instead of MMRCA - if it is not experiencing development delays in the aircraft itself or in its systems (avionics etc). Of course the various bodies involved would have to give a genuine assessment of the development position of their contribution for an informed decision to be made on that assessment.

If Mk 2 were appraised as being 'doable' by HAL within the timeframe required, I would suggest placing a large initial order of well over 100. Choosing Mk2 rather than MMRCA would avoid all the problems associated with India not developing and owning the code required to integrate Indian weapons.

PS Two lines, one run by HAL, another by a private company would be nice. HAL to be paid as a consultant for its role of transferring assembly knowhow to the private company concerned.

HAL is just lead integrator now already outsourced the sub systems for private players. They have offered the manufacturing unit for private players to come on board for Tejas MK2. Even for Tejas MK1A if any one interested HAL will give up their hangers. For AMCA HAL is trying to board private players after govt wasted 2 years trying for PPP.

IAF will never give up MMRCA even if we indict 300 Tejas

 

[silentassassin265]

HAL is just lead integrator now already outsourced the sub systems for private players. They have offered the manufacturing unit for private players to come on board for Tejas MK2. Even for Tejas MK1A if any one interested HAL will give up their hangers. For AMCA HAL is trying to board private players after govt wasted 2 years trying for PPP.

IAF will never give up MMRCA even if we indict 300 Tejas

If mmrca is bound to happen then just declare su57 as winner
No point trusting western platform now

 

[Gandaberunda]

If mmrca is bound to happen then just declare su57 as winner
No point trusting western platform now

Orange orangutan trump will go mad .
Putin has offered Su 57 manufacturing in current su30 Nashik plant and we can pick just Airframe and engine rest we can add our own. If AL 51 engine Su 57E is offered that would be a best bet though IAF is fed up of Russian engine maintenance issues.

 

[shade2]

Orange orangutan trump will go mad .
Putin has offered Su 57 manufacturing in current su30 Nashik plant and we can pick just Airframe and engine rest we can add our own. If AL 51 engine Su 57E is offered that would be a best bet though IAF is fed up of Russian engine maintenance issues.

He will chimp out if anything non-US is purchased.
If even 114 Rafales are purchased even then he will act aggrieved and threathen sanctions and tareefs

 

[concard]

We paid some 1 billion Euros for India specific enhancements in Rafale deal. This won't be reoccurring cost if we order few more Rafales next time. I say we should go for another 36 Rafales based on one condition to the French. Give us the source code to integrate our own Astra, Rudram, SAAW missiles into Rafale or GTFO. They are playing hardball with respect to giving us the source code. They want to milk money from us over and over again for SCALP, meteor missiles.

From our side, yes we have long order book for Tejas MK1A, Tejas MK2, AMCA etc. While their developments happen, we should in parallel develop a good AESA radar, avionics, sensor suite, mission control computer, EW capabilities, helmet mounted display system, and plethora of other subsystems which goes into these aircrafts. These subsystems don't differ much regardless of the aircraft in question. The reason Koreans and Turks have flown their 5th gen fighter so soon after they have undertaken development is because they have bought off the shelf systems from NATO countries. Right from Engine to almost everything on their 5th gen aircraft is imported. Their work was completely simplified and the first prototype rolled out in record time despite them not having any experience building a aircraft before.

Thankfully, as I write this comment our electronics industry is growing leaps and bounds. The sooner we master all the subsystems and be ready for integration on our future aircrafts the faster we can test and roll them out on our assembly line. Keep the assembly line busy churning out Tejas MK1A and Tejas MK2. I hope by 2030 we at least have local engine option available. Then we can confidently march on with AMCA, ORCA, and TEDBF projects. Time is not on our side. And our side is taking shit loads of time which is making me angry. We need to get the ball rolling soon.

 

[705-Lira]

This Image is of unit integration trials in France

The entire reason that IAF bought these Rafales in the first place was the Meteor BVR and the Spectra EW suite.
Also, Meteors are standard fitment on the F3R spec and has been operational with the French AF for quite some time.

 

[shade2]

We paid some 1 billion Euros for India specific enhancements in Rafale deal. This won't be reoccurring cost if we order few more Rafales next time. I say we should go for another 36 Rafales based on one condition to the French. Give us the source code to integrate our own Astra, Rudram, SAAW missiles into Rafale or GTFO. They are playing hardball with respect to giving us the source code. They want to milk money from us over and over again for SCALP, meteor missiles.

From our side, yes we have long order book for Tejas MK1A, Tejas MK2, AMCA etc. While their developments happen, we should in parallel develop a good AESA radar, avionics, sensor suite, mission control computer, EW capabilities, helmet mounted display system, and plethora of other subsystems which goes into these aircrafts. These subsystems don't differ much regardless of the aircraft in question. The reason Koreans and Turks have flown their 5th gen fighter so soon after they have undertaken development is because they have bought off the shelf systems from NATO countries. Right from Engine to almost everything on their 5th gen aircraft is imported. Their work was completely simplified and the first prototype rolled out in record time despite them not having any experience building a aircraft before.

Thankfully, as I write this comment our electronics industry is growing leaps and bounds. The sooner we master all the subsystems and be ready for integration on our future aircrafts the faster we can test and roll them out on our assembly line. Keep the assembly line busy churning out Tejas MK1A and Tejas MK2. I hope by 2030 we at least have local engine option available. Then we can confidently march on with AMCA, ORCA, and TEDBF projects. Time is not on our side. And our side is taking shit loads of time which is making me angry. We need to get the ball rolling soon.

That's the exact reason they won't let us integrate our own weapons system.

They want to milk us with the missile and bomb purchases.

Even if they do, they will attach some impossibly expensive price to such a service, like they are asking accordingly eye-watering sums to integrate deshi torpedo into Scorpene/Kalvari submarines.

One way we can do this is install our own radars and other systems into the Rafale, afaik this way we can integrate our own missiles also.


French are religiously devoted to dhandhomaxxing so the above technique is the only way

 

[username unkown]

That's the exact reason they won't let us integrate our own weapons system.

They want to milk us with the missile and bomb purchases.

Even if they do, they will attach some impossibly expensive price to such a service, like they are asking accordingly eye-watering sums to integrate deshi torpedo into Scorpene/Kalvari submarines.

One way we can do this is install our own radars and other systems into the Rafale, afaik this way we can integrate our own missiles also.


French are religiously devoted to dhandhomaxxing so the above technique is the only way

If we can integrate indian mission computer we can easily integrate indian weapons
Same problem is with mig 29 it have Russki mission computer navy wanted to integrate indian weapon package which was denied by ruski and there were talk of devolping indian mission computer for it not sure there is any progress on it

And one of the main attractive thing about rafale is its ew suite or meteor not sure why would iaf wouldn't integrate its primary bvr missile for its tip of the spear

 

[Corvus Splendens]

He will chimp out if anything non-US is purchased.
If even 114 Rafales are purchased even then he will act aggrieved and threathen sanctions and tareefs

He can chimpout all he wants. An offensive platform like a Fighter is not going to be subject to compromise. We've dealt with far worse american administrations in the past. More Rafales are a given considering the explosive amount of money already invested in MRO and LRUs.

 

[Spitfire IX]

Orange orangutan trump will go mad .
Putin has offered Su 57 manufacturing in current su30 Nashik plant and we can pick just Airframe and engine rest we can add our own. If AL 51 engine Su 57E is offered that would be a best bet though IAF is fed up of Russian engine maintenance issues.

Perhaps I'm not up to date. Did the order for 12 more Su-30 ever materialise? If so, where to be built?
Nashik has just been converted for Mk1A production, hasn't it? Spend all that money then throw it away?
1 Nashik capacity is needed for Mk1A production, as I understand it
2 Mk 2 needs to be built somewhere - requiring an extra FAL
3 Su-57 (if ordered) needs to be built somewhere - requiring an extra FAL

If HAL is hoping to avoid investment by not increasing final assembly capacity to meet needs, big delays are heading India's way, I suspect.

I am troubled that Russia has built a very small number of Su-57 in what - 5 years? If Russia builds them at a snail's pace, I don't see why India would build them faster.

 

[Anupu]

There was a time I used to be facisnated by platforms but the recent education has opened my eyes to systems. Whatever we buy we should own the source codes and it should have good manufacturing tooling to support future self reliance.

Rafale would be ideal if we can have a production line in India with source codes but I fear it would too expensive

Gripen is cheaper its tooling is pretty advanced in some ways more advanced than Rafale. Rafale has its precision but gripen has semi jigless assembly with modular adaptable jigs.


Otherwise Tejas production should stablize post 2027 once Hal has outsourced most of the sub assembly production and fuselage production focusing only on final integration.

 

[Anupu]

Perhaps I'm not up to date. Did the order for 12 more Su-30 ever materialise? If so, where to be built?
Nashik has just been converted for Mk1A production, hasn't it? Spend all that money then throw it away?
1 Nashik capacity is needed for Mk1A production, as I understand it
2 Mk 2 needs to be built somewhere - requiring an extra FAL
3 Su-57 (if ordered) needs to be built somewhere - requiring an extra FAL

If HAL is hoping to avoid investment by not increasing final assembly capacity to meet needs, big delays are heading India's way, I suspect.

I am troubled that Russia has built a very small number of Su-57 in what - 5 years? If Russia builds them at a snail's pace, I don't see why India would build them faster.

It has been ordered

CCS clears Rs 20,000 crore Make in India projects for Su-30 fighter jets, 100 K-9 howitzers - The Economic Times

India's Cabinet Committee on Security approved two defense projects totaling around Rs 20,000 crore. Hindustan Aeronautics Limited will produce 12 Su-30 MKI fighter jets, while Larsen & Toubro will manufacture 100 K-9 Vajra self-propelled howitzers. These projects boost the 'Make in India'...

m.economictimes.com

 

[Gandaberunda]

Perhaps I'm not up to date. Did the order for 12 more Su-30 ever materialise? If so, where to be built?
Nashik has just been converted for Mk1A production, hasn't it? Spend all that money then throw it away?
1 Nashik capacity is needed for Mk1A production, as I understand it
2 Mk 2 needs to be built somewhere - requiring an extra FAL
3 Su-57 (if ordered) needs to be built somewhere - requiring an extra FAL

If HAL is hoping to avoid investment by not increasing final assembly capacity to meet needs, big delays are heading India's way, I suspect.

I am troubled that Russia has built a very small number of Su-57 in what - 5 years? If Russia builds them at a snail's pace, I don't see why India would build them faster.

12 Su 30 for attrition replacement is materialised and signed. MK1A we have 2 plants in Bengaluru and one more can be further added. Russians were waiting for AL51 engine for Su 57 so they did not go into mass production and only built token of Su57 that yo off different IOC standards and now engine is ready they have already ordered 2 squadrons and will go for mass production. Russian Airforce is currently in loving Su 35 and it has become a favourite in their inventory