Indian Air Force: News & Discussions

[Drwho]

What part of a semi stealth trainer Jet with a combined thrust of 80 kn are you having trouble understanding.
Emphasis on semi stealth and Trainer

Get rid of all the unnecessary fluff, no coatings, no EOTS, no fancy EW suite, just stealth shaping and avionics of AMCA to familiarise the pilot with 5th and 5.5th gen features like Loyal Wingman etc,

we need a plane which is better than 4th gen trainers but somewhat less capable than a 5th gen platform, we are making a trainer not a fighter aircraft so none of your concerns of muh super cruise muh Uber expensive EW suite, EOTS matter much, it's like being concerned about lack of an internal EW suite or IRST on a 4th gen fighter trainer

My main motivation for this proposal is that you need a stealth platform to effectively train pilots for a battlefield littered with 5th gen platforms

Also semi stealth was just a random proposal, the main point was any plane powered by two uprated HTFE 40 would be cheaper and more redundant than whatever monstrosity that we are planning to make with HLFT 42, that plane will 100 be a failure.

We need a desi L-15 plain and simple, if it's stealth shaped even better


Atleast my delusions are better than your constant black pilling of muh AMCA 15 years late it's the end of the world now.
so effing what if AMCA is 15 years late what other choice do you have, throw our hands up and do nothing,
Or maybe you have a better way, maybe we should be at the mercy of orange man so that he can dictate don't fight with Porkis or we will disable you F35s.
Or maybe you want us to be at the mercy of a god forsaken joke of a "5th gen" fighter from the Ruskies

Privatisation PRIVATISATION!

With these sarkari babu nothing is possible! They get their tiffin in jhola and talk about their damad and grandchild half the time rest they talk about pf and inflation.
Even if we want to go for su57 m with nozzle and new engine . Only private players can do it. Hal is too busy with lca and they will stay busy for next 1000 years.

American won’t give anything. their stuff has too much conditions and it’s worthless with those conditions.

 

[ArjunMK1A]

IAF is in a shit condition. By 2035 it will have to retire some 200 combat aircrafts (Mirage-2000, Jaguars, MiG-21 and MiG-29). Assuming all goes well, We'll have 132 LCA MK1A delivered by 2030 end and all 170 MK1A delivered by 2032. Even if LCA MK2 line goes operational at 24 jets per annum by 2032 we'll have 70 to 80 LCA MK2 delivered. These are optimistic scenarios. I am assuming no 114 Rafale deal is happening either, maybe 36 additional might be procured. In such a situation, IAF is essentially stagnant much like other forces instead of expanding with fast growing economy. Wonder why additional Su-30 MKIs aren't being ordered except for the 12 meant to replace crashed units, especially when we're replacing medium weight fighters with lightweight Tejas.

I don't see AMCA going into production before 2035, by the time talks for replacing older Su-30 MKI airframes begin.

The situation is pretty much clear that we need additional Lead Integrator similar to how Artillery, Guns have multiple vendors.

HAL will be spread thin if they go with MWF and AMCA. They need to handle Rotary Division. We have TASL who is gaining the experience of Lead Integrator using the C-295 Program. L&T is interested.

The best solution should be adding new Lead Integrator in the form TASL or L&T. We need another company in Aerospace sector to handle our requirement and also cut down the Monopoly situation with HAL. Same thing happened with Artillery, Guns how OFB had monopoly, Today we have companies ready to supply these products. This is the right time, since gestation takes some 10 years solid.

Also NAL chumps were working on SARAS MK1, MK2, Hansa, RTA. Going by DPSU production style we will not see anything since no funding from MOD babus for flimsy reasons.

NAL should join hands with this new System Integrator and let them manufacture the plane meanwhile NAL should work on Designing. Also someone ask these guys to find the HS-748 ToT and start rebuilding them with new material, powerplant. We have developed enough subsystems now and we have suppliers who are already working with Boeing and Airbus. Building an Avro with 50 Seater and RTA with 70 to 90 seater will give initial boost to the Indian Aerospace industries.

 

[ArjunMK1A]

I don't think mirage or jaguar will even last that long, they are crashing so frequently that they will be retired by 2028 itself.
Mig 29 we can upgrade with uttam radar and astra bvr we might need to replace engine to in order to use it till 2035

Jaguar engines gone for the toss, Can't expect anything from that old man. Only saving is somehow HAL finished the HTFE-25 Project.

Meanwhile Mirage and Mig 29 can be upgraded with Indigenous Uttam AESA which give some advantage. But again at max, it will be 120 Jets.

If somehow MOD babus able to procure 114 Rafales. Then some escape, otherwise doom.

MOD babus were curse with multiple chai biskoot session.

 

[Vikram314]

IAF is in a shit condition. By 2035 it will have to retire some 200 combat aircrafts (Mirage-2000, Jaguars, MiG-21 and MiG-29). Assuming all goes well, We'll have 132 LCA MK1A delivered by 2030 end and all 170 MK1A delivered by 2032. Even if LCA MK2 line goes operational at 24 jets per annum by 2032 we'll have 70 to 80 LCA MK2 delivered. These are optimistic scenarios. I am assuming no 114 Rafale deal is happening either, maybe 36 additional might be procured. In such a situation, IAF is essentially stagnant much like other forces instead of expanding with fast growing economy. Wonder why additional Su-30 MKIs aren't being ordered except for the 12 meant to replace crashed units, especially when we're replacing medium weight fighters with lightweight Tejas.

I don't see AMCA going into production before 2035, by the time talks for replacing older Su-30 MKI airframes begin.

This is the condition of just fighter's . We don't have adequate numbers of refuellers, transport, awacs, and istar aircrafts.

What bharat can do is to really enhance its air defence. This is the area where we are very self independent on technology. We have to make our air defense dense by inducting as many indegenous systems as possible.
Next is to enhance our missile strike capabilities. Induct as many brahmos and its future variants as possible.We should fastrack hypersonic missile. Missiles is also one area where we are very self independent. Also induct shit ton of drones of all varieties. We have to Adopt porcupine strategy.

order 97 more tejas mk1a. which will bring total mk1a to about 180. pay more for engines if we have to. we have no option.

Fastrack the cats program. It will act as a great multiplier for our dwindling fighter jets.

Fastrack super sukhoi program. If government wants it, it can do it, also induct more su 30 mki. This is the only aircraft which we can build in short amount of time. we should have altleast 300+ mkis.

Buy 74 rafales and close the goddam mrca circus. With 84 rafales and 26 rafale m orders. Dassault can open one manufacturing line here.

release the funds for kaveri program. construct all the testing facilities required for engine development in india. Government has to loose its purse strings.

Fastrack lca mk2 program. Make prototype with a russian engine as a backup for if usa do some mischief. We can atleast use mk2 with russian engine.

FastTrack AMCA and bring it under PMO just like ATV program. AMCA has to be completed and inducted if we have to compete in the future.

Forget about f35 and su 57. Neither of the aircrafts are coming. F35 will not be inducted because of usa's terms and conditions and su- 57 because of russian extortion tactics.

Regarding transport aircrafts we have to start a program to make and build a indigenous heavy transporter because there is no option beacause c 17 line is closed and IAF will not buy russian because of western aircrafts ease of maintenance and use. This heavy transport aircraft program will also be beneficial for our indigenous refullers program As we can build as many refullers we want.
Already c 295 is being made here which should replace all our legacy medium transport aircrafts.

Also have to start one program to make a c-130 type aircraft.

Regarding awacs, drdo is already converting six a320 and also building netra mk2 on embraer platform. We should have decent strength in awacs by the end of this decade.

Every procurement and programs can be completed and done if government demand for it. Government has to bring MOD and all other dpsu in line. No more lethargy should be allowed. No more chalta hain attitude. GOI has to loose its purse string and should focus more on armed forces now. Procurement and programs cant run on autopilot mode and also reign in the Chandigarh lobby. Do saam daam dand bhed and reign in this lobbies.

With 300 super sukhoi mki+ 120 rafale + 180 mk1a+ some 20 to 40 mk2 we get about 620-640 fighter jets that is about 31 to 32 squadrons by the end of this decade. This fighters will be modern and will be just enough to deter the chinese and give us some breathing room.

That is why i was hopeful that we decimate PAF's fighter jets and awacs so we get some breathing room and focus on china.

 

[MarDePopins]

Lol seriously is there any project which these nincompoop can finish on time.

View: https://x.com/cvkrishnan/status/1923769577806365037?t=Riz8mjTFdPqwTAEs3O_Flw&s=19


View: https://x.com/sriramthg/status/1923676334032814259?t=4RO6uS3ddQO62c8wnzJ3GQ&s=19

Lol what's more worrying is super sukhoi IOC only will take 5-6 years from now on lol..lol.

That's criminal..

So IAF will get upgraded su30s from 2031-32 .. iam pulling my hair listening to it's timelines

 

[ezsasa]

Lol what's more worrying is super sukhoi IOC only will take 5-6 years from now on lol..lol.

That's criminal..

So IAF will get upgraded su30s from 2031-32 .. iam pulling my hair listening to it's timelines

this discussion you are having on HAL is not a balanced one, with no one putting forth HAL's point of view, this would just devolve into HAL bashing spree. being a DPSU, they cannot make public every information you seek.

 

[MarDePopins]

this discussion you are having on HAL is not a balanced one, with no one putting forth HAL's point of view, this would just devolve into HAL bashing spree. being a DPSU, they cannot make public every information you seek.

Yeah we shall leave HAL go scot free instead of HAL owning it's incompetence nd inefficiencies which were flagged in various CAG reports nd parliamentary committee on defence.. why?? only because HAL being a DPSU can't make public every information..

No we are not asking HAL to make information public every week..

Heck all we want is HAL to own up it's incompetence nd start delivering projects on stipulated timelines.

Just some of the few examples of HAL incompetence nd lapses..

Urgent need for HAL to transform from a reactive to a proactive R&D strategy: Parliamentary panel - The Tribune

The CAG had highlighted systemic lapses in HAL’s adherence to mandated pre-project processes, including the absence of PFRs in 18 out of 32 projects and DPRs in 29 out of 32 projects.

www.tribuneindia.com

Now what shall we do?? Sleep on it? HAL is a public listed companies where people hv invested their hard earned money on it's stocks .. HAL is answerable to every indian.

 

[shade2]

IAF is in a shit condition. By 2035 it will have to retire some 200 combat aircrafts (Mirage-2000, Jaguars, MiG-21 and MiG-29). Assuming all goes well, We'll have 132 LCA MK1A delivered by 2030 end and all 170 MK1A delivered by 2032. Even if LCA MK2 line goes operational at 24 jets per annum by 2032 we'll have 70 to 80 LCA MK2 delivered. These are optimistic scenarios. I am assuming no 114 Rafale deal is happening either, maybe 36 additional might be procured. In such a situation, IAF is essentially stagnant much like other forces instead of expanding with fast growing economy. Wonder why additional Su-30 MKIs aren't being ordered except for the 12 meant to replace crashed units, especially when we're replacing medium weight fighters with lightweight Tejas.

I don't see AMCA going into production before 2035, by the time talks for replacing older Su-30 MKI airframes begin.

Fear of Amerishart's sanctions, first it was Orange Man's CAATSA and then Putya had to invade Ukraine.

The reason for all your posts here is simple, since Parrikar's passing, GoI doesn't care much about Defense and the MoD runs on baboo auto-pilot with Nindaji as a wall flower.
They are also chindi and cowardly, every 2-3 years orders for 36 additional rafales should have been placed till we had like 8 squadrons for IAF, but no, too miserly and too scared of Pappu's Rafale SCAM.


imo for now we must only missile and radar maxxxx, that's the only thing that can be done

 

[shade2]

Yeah we shall leave HAL go scot free instead of HAL owning it's incompetence nd inefficiencies which were flagged in various CAG reports nd parliamentary committee on defence.. why?? only because HAL being a DPSU can't make public every information..

No we are not asking HAL to make information public every week..

Heck all we want is HAL to own up it's incompetence nd start delivering projects on stipulated timelines.

Just some of the few examples of HAL incompetence nd lapses..

Urgent need for HAL to transform from a reactive to a proactive R&D strategy: Parliamentary panel - The Tribune

The CAG had highlighted systemic lapses in HAL’s adherence to mandated pre-project processes, including the absence of PFRs in 18 out of 32 projects and DPRs in 29 out of 32 projects.

www.tribuneindia.com

Now what shall we do?? Sleep on it? HAL is a public listed companies where people hv invested their hard earned money on it's stocks .. HAL is answerable to every indian.

View attachment 36399

A possible solution to this is inserting retired Air Marshalls or whatever other ranked officer is available into managerial positions at HAL.

Atleast this arrangement kinda sorta works for those DPSU shipyards with retired Navy officers.

 

[FalconSlayers]

Fear of Amerishart's sanctions, first it was Orange Man's CAATSA and then Putya had to invade Ukraine.

The reason for all your posts here is simple, since Parrikar's passing, GoI doesn't care much about Defense and the MoD runs on baboo auto-pilot with Nindaji as a wall flower.
They are also chindi and cowardly, every 2-3 years orders for 36 additional rafales should have been placed till we had like 8 squadrons for IAF, but no, too miserly and too scared of Pappu's Rafale SCAM.


imo for now we must only missile and radar maxxxx, that's the only thing that can be done

Missiles and Radar maxxing is equally expensive. Afterall you need jets to control the airspace. Which is why I am sad we cease fired instead of utilising the golden opportunity to neutralise a large number of their assets asap. Can't fight 2 fronts with 1/5th the number of combat aircraft as other two. Also, Su-30 MKI doesn't have sanctions threat, we literally ordered 12 more recently. Can literally order a few more squadrons but IAF is reluctant.

 

[shade2]

Missiles and Radar maxxing is equally expensive. Afterall you need jets to control the airspace. Which is why I am sad we cease fired instead of utilising the golden opportunity to neutralise a large number of their assets asap. Can't fight 2 fronts with 1/5th the number of combat aircraft as other two.

Expensive but most of the missile and radar is made in country, there are no hangups of American engine or a single DPSU taking time or the over 90000 problems with import.

We have Akash-NG, QRSAM, Kusha in development, those need to be fast tracked.
Also the Super Sukhoi upgrade and Astra integrations including Gandiv

Govt boot needs to be applied on DPSU and possibly DRDO bottoms to do all this in 5 years, money has to be poured out and they need to hire more people also if necessary.

Baaki ka they can buy 2-3 squadrons more of Rafale provided they have the balls.

I really wish they'd buy more su30s tbh

 

[jaijaganath]

Lol what's more worrying is super sukhoi IOC only will take 5-6 years from now on lol..lol.

That's criminal..

So IAF will get upgraded su30s from 2031-32 .. iam pulling my hair listening to it's timelines

Even in this decade most of the mki technologies are obsolete
And when they will be inducted in 2030s that to in humble nos of 84 they will be average and will not provide any significant technical edge over china .

Our own j-16 and j-11d will arrive on 2030s and chinese are using it since 2017

We are truly fucked

 

[705-Lira]

The Super Sukhoi is taking 5 years for IOC because they seek to upgrade the intial batch of 84 jets with the Complete upgrade package once all the design & development work of all the avionics are completed.
When we talk about the Super Sukhoi upgrade, it's not just the radar that is getting replaced but also the mission computers, cockpit instrumentation, IRST, jammers, MAWS, etc.
Many of these things are in development phase with some of them nearing completion of their development phase.
Now the obvious solution is to integrate these systems as they are developed but that leads to significant down time of combat capable aircraft in an Air Force already short of fighter jets.
The ball's in IAF court as to how they wish to proceed with this upgrade program.

 

[FalconSlayers]

Expensive but most of the missile and radar is made in country, there are no hangups of American engine or a single DPSU taking time or the over 90000 problems with import.

We have Akash-NG, QRSAM, Kusha in development, those need to be fast tracked.
Also the Super Sukhoi upgrade and Astra integrations including Gandiv

Govt boot needs to be applied on DPSU and possibly DRDO bottoms to do all this in 5 years, money has to be poured out and they need to hire more people also if necessary.

Baaki ka they can buy 2-3 squadrons more of Rafale provided they have the balls.

I really wish they'd buy more su30s tbh

What if they spam supersonic and hypersonic missiles? You realise chinese industrial capacity is extremely extremely huge? They will overwhelm our air defences.

 

[705-Lira]

Even in this decade most of the mki technologies are obsolete
And when they will be inducted in 2030s that to in humble nos of 84 they will be average and will not provide any significant technical edge over china .

Our own j-16 and j-11d will arrive on 2030s and chinese are using it since 2017

We are truly fucked

The 84 is the intial batch, eventually some 222 aircraft will be upgraded to Super Sukhoi standards.
The program is being implemented in batches to reduce downtime on combat capable aircraft.
The Chinese started their upgrade programs way before we did and obviously that's why their upgraded J-11/16 rolled out much before.
The J-11/16 were upgraded with these next-gen technologies as they were developed rather than integrate the entire upgrade package in one go.

 

[shade2]

Even in this decade most of the mki technologies are obsolete
And when they will be inducted in 2030s that to in humble nos of 84 they will be average and will not provide any significant technical edge over china .

Our own j-16 and j-11d will arrive on 2030s and chinese are using it since 2017

We are truly fucked

You can cope because they will be operating from Tibet and we have the Himalayas.
Besides India is a poison pill if they commit to a war and are unable to extricate themselves like Rus in Ukr.

However i believe that we need to bulk up the IAF in the next 5 years to establish deterrence and prevent any chong thoughts of any hot war with India.

By building with China in mind we also go far ahead of Paapistan also unless they find a daan-veer foreign sponsor to maintain parity

What if they spam supersonic and hypersonic missiles? You realise chinese industrial capacity is extremely extremely huge? They will overwhelm our air defences.

They can but i'd assume those are meant for the Amerishats/Taiwan invasion.
They may have yuge industrial capacity but that will be wasted on India as compared to say Taiwan and breaking the 1st island chain.

regardless as i've said about we have to bulk up or the risk of them attacking becomes real.
Even on paper the condition of our forces should be so good that they are convinced they'd get a pyrhic victory if any so avoid us altogether.

Any weakness is only incentive for them to attack

 

[redpanda]

Aren't they going to reform the DAP 2020 this year to reduce the procurement time? Will this have any impact on existing projects?

 

[shade2]

Aren't they going to reform the DAP 2020 this year to reduce the procurement time? Will this have any impact on existing projects?

afaik it is to make AAAAAH I'MMMM IMPOOOOORTING easier.

 

[MarDePopins]

This is the condition of just fighter's . We don't have adequate numbers of refuellers, transport, awacs, and istar aircrafts.

What bharat can do is to really enhance its air defence. This is the area where we are very self independent on technology. We have to make our air defense dense by inducting as many indegenous systems as possible.
Next is to enhance our missile strike capabilities. Induct as many brahmos and its future variants as possible.We should fastrack hypersonic missile. Missiles is also one area where we are very self independent. Also induct shit ton of drones of all varieties. We have to Adopt porcupine strategy.

order 97 more tejas mk1a. which will bring total mk1a to about 180. pay more for engines if we have to. we have no option.

Fastrack the cats program. It will act as a great multiplier for our dwindling fighter jets.

Fastrack super sukhoi program. If government wants it, it can do it, also induct more su 30 mki. This is the only aircraft which we can build in short amount of time. we should have altleast 300+ mkis.

Buy 74 rafales and close the goddam mrca circus. With 84 rafales and 26 rafale m orders. Dassault can open one manufacturing line here.

release the funds for kaveri program. construct all the testing facilities required for engine development in india. Government has to loose its purse strings.

Fastrack lca mk2 program. Make prototype with a russian engine as a backup for if usa do some mischief. We can atleast use mk2 with russian engine.

FastTrack AMCA and bring it under PMO just like ATV program. AMCA has to be completed and inducted if we have to compete in the future.

Forget about f35 and su 57. Neither of the aircrafts are coming. F35 will not be inducted because of usa's terms and conditions and su- 57 because of russian extortion tactics.

Regarding transport aircrafts we have to start a program to make and build a indigenous heavy transporter because there is no option beacause c 17 line is closed and IAF will not buy russian because of western aircrafts ease of maintenance and use. This heavy transport aircraft program will also be beneficial for our indigenous refullers program As we can build as many refullers we want.
Already c 295 is being made here which should replace all our legacy medium transport aircrafts.

Also have to start one program to make a c-130 type aircraft.

Regarding awacs, drdo is already converting six a320 and also building netra mk2 on embraer platform. We should have decent strength in awacs by the end of this decade.

Every procurement and programs can be completed and done if government demand for it. Government has to bring MOD and all other dpsu in line. No more lethargy should be allowed. No more chalta hain attitude. GOI has to loose its purse string and should focus more on armed forces now. Procurement and programs cant run on autopilot mode and also reign in the Chandigarh lobby. Do saam daam dand bhed and reign in this lobbies.

With 300 super sukhoi mki+ 120 rafale + 180 mk1a+ some 20 to 40 mk2 we get about 620-640 fighter jets that is about 31 to 32 squadrons by the end of this decade. This fighters will be modern and will be just enough to deter the chinese and give us some breathing room.

That is why i was hopeful that we decimate PAF's fighter jets and awacs so we get some breathing room and focus on china.

"With 300 super sukhoi mki+ 120 rafale + 180 mk1a+ some 20 to 40 mk2 we get about 620-640 fighter jets that is about 31 to 32 squadrons by the end of this decade. This fighters will be modern and will be just enough to deter the chinese and give us some breathing room"


Ur whole timeline is highly optimistic nd devoid of reality

No we aren't getting all of the above aircrafts u mentioned by the end of this decade.

Upgraded Su30s will only be delivered to IAF after 2030-31 nd those are only 84 nos not 300 that u hv predicted

IAF will do repeat order of 40 rafales nd will get delivery from 2029-30 only if we order next year i.e 2026. Nd if IAF ask for production line up that alone will take more than 3-4 years to set up.. that's why Dassault has only committed for fuselage assembly nd MRO facility with navy order of 26 as it is expecting a repeat order of 40 nos from IAF. Dassault wouldn't have committed for just fuselage assembly instead would hv waited for larger IAF MRFA order to open a full production line.
So no we are not getting 120 rafale by the end of this decade as u hv predicted.

Now coming to 180 mk1a HAL will deliver 12 aircraft this year..now if being optimistic and assuming HAL ramps up production rate to 24 per year it will take 8 years to deliver 180 mk1A i.e by 2032.. so that's close to ur prediction but still misses by 2 years.

Nd for MK2 it will be only go in mass production once delivery of tejas mk1A is completed as HAL is not setting up a different Production line for MK2..nd instead will utilise existing mk1A production lines so it's safe to assume it will go in production by 2031-32 only if HAL frees up NASIK production line to manufacture few tejas mk2 while mk1A will be ending it's production.

So this won't be enough to deter chinese which by 2030 will be having 500 J20s nd 150 J35 .. i.e 650 state of art 5th gen fighters.

 

[jaijaganath]

The 84 is the intial batch, eventually some 222 aircraft will be upgraded to Super Sukhoi standards.
The program is being implemented in batches to reduce downtime on combat capable aircraft.
The Chinese started their upgrade programs way before we did and obviously that's why their upgraded J-11/16 rolled out much before.
The J-11/16 were upgraded with these next-gen technologies as they were developed rather than integrate the entire upgrade package in one go.

Ofc they started earlier
But the point is super sukhoi tech will be comparable to j-16 which are available today
We can argue on GaN modules, we may have better avionics than them but either of us can't prove it
Today they have aesa radar maws ew suite modern cockpit newer jammers etc but we will get it post 2030s whereas they have deployed more than 300 aircrafts

We need to speed up